ACLU Wants Cross Removed from Cemetary Plot

[Vylo]

Interesting Paula, I've never seen a cemetery out west (only been west of PA once). I thought it was commonplace to have eleborate headstones.

 

[Paula]

Nope. It's just a plot of land that was given to a private party.

And the cross marks the gravesite:

"The plot the cross is on was donated to the late Cy Karns, who helped put it there."

http://www.nbc4i.com/news/4481346/detail.html

If it was given to the private party by the government, there's a strong case that the donation is an attempt to circumvent church/state regs.

That's only a hypothesis. Ownership information could be easily obtained from cemetery records.

 

[Smidlee]

Once again, I am quite dismayed to see all these uninformed comments about who the ACLU is and what the ACLU stands for. It is incredibly sad and frustrating to see people of faith, who benefit so much from the ACLU, continually slamming the organization anytime the outcome is not in Christian favour.

Many slam the ACLU becuase they abuse the law . ACLU is a lot like a building inspector or a man who looks after the dumpsters who loves to be a pain. Most of ACLU cases are useless which seems to point they are running out of real violation of the first amendment. Most of the time the first amendment is abused to support immorality like profanity and porngraphy.

If a policeman pulls over a Christian who is speeding on the way to church, is that cop "godless"?

and what happens when not enough people are breaking the speed limit and no revenue coming in? Ever heard of speed traps? I'm not againest the speed limit and believe it good but I'm totally againest speed traps which is only attended to write up tickets.

Do you tell a clerk who won't permit Christians to shoplift that he hates God?

I would be 100% ACLU if they went after shoplifter yet I've seen too many shoplifter get off easy. So you probably get by shoplifting a lot easier than having prayer in school. You also have it easier to preach gay agenda a lot easier than prayer. Remember the first amendment was used to protect child porngraphy a few years ago. Also I see the ACLU used tax dollars to sue the boy scouts over the issue of homosexuality. ACLU has also attacking the NC law of common-law wife because a woman who been shacking up for so long will not be able to draw walfare. Poor woman , now she got to go to work like the rest of us.

 

[burrow_owl]

"The plot the cross is on was donated to the late Cy Karns, who helped put it there."

It may be a gravesite, it may not be. The story just doesn't tell us.

That's only a hypothesis. Ownership information could be easily obtained from cemetery records.

Yep. As far as the church/state analysis goes, that'll be the determinative factor.

 

[Brad'sDad]

It may be a gravesite, it may not be. The story just doesn't tell us.

Where might the poor chap be?

 

[Ginny]

Why is it that people opposed to crosses, 10 commandments, etc. always use the same argument? "How would you like a 100 ft. Luther?"......."Can I put a 100 ft. Buddha?"......yada frickin yada. Those things are not the issue, are they? The actual issue is the cross. When someone tries to put up a 100 ft. Buddha, start a thread. Until then - it's a diversionary tactic, and that's all.

***, LOL

 

[Ginny]

I think I would like a life size Ronald McDonald at my gravesight...







just kidding

 

[starchild]

Where might the poor chap be?

Sprinkled elsewhere, in an urn on the mantle, buried in another plot. It does not say, either way.

 

[Vylo]

Why should it be removed from the cemetery? That is what confuses me. If it is an issue, they can simply request that it be moved to a private plot. Certainly someone would be willing to give it a home?

 

[EricCartman]

I love facist, they are so cool. It's like the idea of having a cross on your grave gives some people just a little bit of happiness, and the ACLU gets to take that away from them. Their so neat. I want to be just like them when I grow up.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Many slam the ACLU becuase they abuse the law . ACLU is a lot like a building inspector or a man who looks after the dumpsters who loves to be a pain. Most of ACLU cases are useless which seems to point they are running out of real violation of the first amendment.

I disagree. I think what happens is that the ACLU takes the occasional far out case just to set a precedent. Laws are vague, and people need to know where the lines are drawn.

Most of the time the first amendment is abused to support immorality like profanity and porngraphy.

And what is pornography?

and what happens when not enough people are breaking the speed limit and no revenue coming in? Ever heard of speed traps? I'm not againest the speed limit and believe it good but I'm totally againest speed traps which is only attended to write up tickets.

Are you suggesting this is an ACLU "Speed Trap"?

Only one problem with that theory... there's no money in this for them. Where's the revenue?

I would be 100% ACLU if they went after shoplifter yet I've seen too many shoplifter get off easy.

What does shoplifting have to do with civil liberties? Call a cop.

So you probably get by shoplifting a lot easier than having prayer in school. You also have it easier to preach gay agenda a lot easier than prayer. Remember the first amendment was used to protect child porngraphy a few years ago.

Successfully? Then it wasn't child pornography, now was it?

Also I see the ACLU used tax dollars to sue the boy scouts over the issue of homosexuality.

The issue was discrimination.

ACLU has also attacking the NC law of common-law wife because a woman who been shacking up for so long will not be able to draw walfare. Poor woman , now she got to go to work like the rest of us.
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And if she was married, she'd get welfare. Your point?

 

[grace-2]

I'm envisioning the view onto that cemetary being obliterated by hundreds of gigantic crosses, Thor's Hammers, Menohras and Stars of Islam ... and, of course, ovetowered by Über's gigantic Luther figure! (I hope that Luther would hold his 95 thesis in one hand, a cross held up high in his other? )

and, of course, ovetowered by Über's gigantic Luther figure! (I hope that Luther would hold his 95 thesis in one hand, a cross held up high in his other? )



now, thats the ticket. with God smiling down from above thank you.

 

[Moros]

Why do people have trouble computing the fact that Christianity is the largest religion in the USA, weighing in at a hefty 80% of the population? Why don't people make the connection that this fact is going to be (and rightly should be) reflected in public display?

 

[Norseman]

Why do people have trouble computing the fact that Christianity is the largest religion in the USA, weighing in at a hefty 80% of the population? Why don't people make the connection that this fact is going to be (and rightly should be) reflected in public display?

If 3/4 of the country were white, would you deem it acceptable to discriminate against non-white people?

 

[Rochir]

This is a question about what can be displayed on public property vs private property, a question of separation between state and religion! Why have people so much trouble grasping that simple concept?

If that person wishes for his gigantic cross, then let him be burried in a private cemetary. NOT a public one!!!

 

[notto]

It's not a personal marker. It is a war memorial.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156465,00.html

From a proponent of keeping the cross.
If we let them take this cross down, what's next? Are they going to come and say, well, that tombstone looks like a cross? You have got to remove it. So we're going to fight.

Looks like he even makes the distinction that this is not a personal tombstone.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Why do people have trouble computing the fact that Christianity is the largest religion in the USA, weighing in at a hefty 80% of the population? Why don't people make the connection that this fact is going to be (and rightly should be) reflected in public display?

Because the USA is supposed to repsect and guard the rights of 100% of the population, not just 80%.

 

[Paula]

Interesting Paula, I've never seen a cemetery out west (only been west of PA once). I thought it was commonplace to have eleborate headstones.

People have elaborate headstones in the west also, but I think cemeteries back east tend to be more lavish in appearance.

Many slam the ACLU becuase they abuse the law . ACLU is a lot like a building inspector or a man who looks after the dumpsters who loves to be a pain. Most of ACLU cases are useless which seems to point they are running out of real violation of the first amendment.

In this particular case, I'd say the ACLU is behaving like a group of grand inquisitors!

Why should it be removed from the cemetery? That is what confuses me. If it is an issue, they can simply request that it be moved to a private plot. Certainly someone would be willing to give it a home?

According to the story, the marker is on a private plot. I don't doubt though that someone else would be willing to adopt it and give it a loving home. Who knows, it might even grow in size with all the nurturing!

This is a question about what can be displayed on public property vs private property, a question of separation between state and religion! Why have people so much trouble grasping that simple concept?

If that person wishes for his gigantic cross, then let him be burried in a private cemetary. NOT a public one!!!

I think what some people on this thread may not understand is that in America, people are permitted to have religious markers on their gravesites and may also conduct religious memorial services in any cemetery, regardless of whether it's government-owned or private. Veterans cemeteries are filled with crosses. In the U.S., religious free expression is not banned on government property.

The aesthetics of the cemetery and its monuments are governed by cemetery regulations, and not by the ACLU!

It's not a personal marker. It is a war memorial.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156465,00.html

Are you against war memorials also?

From a proponent of keeping the cross.
If we let them take this cross down, what's next? Are they going to come and say, well, that tombstone looks like a cross? You have got to remove it. So we're going to fight.

Looks like he even makes the distinction that this is not a personal tombstone.

I don't think he's the one making a distinction. Grave markers come in many different shapes, sizes and compositions. Cemeteries (both public and private) are filled with crosses of varying heights and compositions used as markers on graves.

I still don't think there are any church/state issues here.

 

[notto]

Are you against war memorials also?

Yes Paula, I'm against war memorials also. I also kick puppies.

(the point is that it is a war memorial on public property, representing only the Christian point of view)

Are you against atheist or Jewish war veterans? (see, now that's just silly, isn't it).

 

[JimfromOhio]

In 1996, the ACLU forced the county to remove the cross from the McArthur courthouse (Vinton County,Ohio), where it sat for almost 40 years. The monument was added to Elk Cemetery in 2004, after being in storage for eight years. The plot the cross is on was donated to the late Cy Karns, who helped put it there.

A representative from the American Civil Liberties Union told Elk Township the cross must leave the government-owned cemetery. ACLU have a problem with a Cross being displayed in a public cemetery. At issue is whether the ACLU can have a case if the memorial is located on a private plot. The ACLU's position is that if it is part of a private grave plot, it is an expression of personal belief. But as a public memorial in a public cemetary, it violates the phantom separation of church and state.