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ACLU Wants Cross Removed from Cemetary Plot

Paula

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awesome liver said:
the reading comprehension of christians must be statistically low in some parts.

what is the principle of separation of church and state as stated in the constitution (as derived from it by scotus and an inherent understanding of it by congress & the presidency)? wellllll i'm glad you're all wondering.

What I'm still wondering is how you think this case qualifies as a church/state issue which would mandate intervention by the aclu.
 
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grace-2

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Zippythepinhead said:
So ACLU I am Mormon. When I die are you going to have a picture of a Mormon Temple scratched off my tombstone? If you do I will come back and haunt you. It is private property!:scratch:

Zip,
well. I would never have a mormon temple put on your tombstone, or anyone elses. lets hope we can all see the light some day!! And have a cross or a message from our holy Bible put on the tomb stone. which may help some unbeleiver. ah, you never know.
 
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Paula

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grace-2 said:
Zip,
well. I would never have a mormon temple put on your tombstone, or anyone elses. lets hope we can all see the light some day!! And have a cross or a message from our holy Bible put on the tomb stone. which may help some unbeleiver. ah, you never know.

I also agree that Bible verses and crosses are great to have on a monument. I think what Zippy's saying though is that as a Mormon, he wouldn't want someone to remove the picture of the temple from his tombstone because it's his private property, and people should respect that fact.
 
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notto

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Paula said:
What I'm still wondering is how you think this case qualifies as a church/state issue which would mandate intervention by the aclu.

It's not a private marker. It is a public one endorsed by the civil government, dedicated as a war memorial, and lighted at night.

http://www.acluohio.org/get_involved/chapters/AppNewsletter.pdf
(pdf - second page)

The original story didn't give the whole story.
 
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ACougar

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That surprises me, usually anytime a physical Church/Temple/Mosque is established I thought it was fairly easy to get permission to use some of the land for a cemetary. The only drawback may be the need to move into a somewhat undeveloped area. It's an idea many of my friends in the Neo-Pagan community have been talking about for awhile now.

As for angry neibors who are ignorant of the facts I think we just need to be patient. Once they realize your decent people who simply hold differant beliefs most will be embaresed they raised a fuss in the first place.

rahma said:
Actually, now that people mention it, we muslims have a hard time even getting a cemetery approved, let alone putting up monuments in it.
 
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Norseman

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ACougar said:
As for angry neibors who are ignorant of the facts I think we just need to be patient. Once they realize your decent people who simply hold differant beliefs most will be embaresed they raised a fuss in the first place.

That's a rather optimistic viewpoint.
 
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Rochir

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Ok, riddle me this: Those of you who wish for that gigantic cross to remain and the ACLU shut their yap, you all would have no problems with a HUGE GIGANTIC Menohra or a HUGE GIGANTIC Buddhistic symbol on someone's grave in that cemetary, right?

Just answer this one simple question! I'll look forward to the responses! :)
 
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Norseman

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Rochir said:
Ok, riddle me this: Those of you who wish for that gigantic cross to remain and the ACLU shut their yap, you all would have no problems with a HUGE GIGANTIC Menohra or a HUGE GIGANTIC Buddhistic symbol on someone's grave in that cemetary, right?

Just answer this one simple question! I'll look forward to the responses! :)

Not even on their grave. Just a 10 foot Buddha, or a 10 foot Islamic crescent moon and star, sitting out there in the middle of the cemetery (and being lit at night) all on government-owned public property.
 
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Rochir

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;) I'm envisioning the view onto that cemetary being obliterated by hundreds of gigantic crosses, Thor's Hammers, Menohras and Stars of Islam ... and, of course, ovetowered by Über's gigantic Luther figure! (I hope that Luther would hold his 95 thesis in one hand, a cross held up high in his other?:sorry: )
 
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Smidlee

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Rochir said:
Ok, riddle me this: Those of you who wish for that gigantic cross to remain and the ACLU shut their yap, you all would have no problems with a HUGE GIGANTIC Menohra or a HUGE GIGANTIC Buddhistic symbol on someone's grave in that cemetary, right?

Just answer this one simple question! I'll look forward to the responses! :)
Like what we expect to find in countries in the Mid-East like Iraq? Even if Democracy is successful in Iraq it still be full of Muslims and not like America Democracy unless you don't give them true freedom to government themselves. If I live in Utah I would expect to see a lot of Mormons and their symbols. Why? because the government had anything to do with it? NO!!! because the people of Utah choose to be Mormons. This is suppose to be the United States of America where each state can have it's differences. I sure some Mormons probably moved to Utah to be around those of the same faith.
It's the same with other states as for mine there is a lot of baptist churches. The first amendment gives us the right to build a baptist church in Utah yet we would still believe Utah would be Mormons. So We would have to learn to get along with Mormons right? The same with Iraq, A christian would have to learn to get along with Muslims and realize the majortiy choice to be this way so expect to ses public displays of their faith. And why not? Isn't freedom what we preach so much about?
 
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feral

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Once again, I am quite dismayed to see all these uninformed comments about who the ACLU is and what the ACLU stands for. It is incredibly sad and frustrating to see people of faith, who benefit so much from the ACLU, continually slamming the organization anytime the outcome is not in Christian favour. If a policeman pulls over a Christian who is speeding on the way to church, is that cop "godless"? Do you tell a clerk who won't permit Christians to shoplift that he hates God? If a Christian school teacher says students can't read the Bible during gym class because the students need to be joining in the sports, do you accuse her of wanting to remove God from everything? No? Then why do the exact same thing to the ACLU when they become concerned over a case where it appears a Christian symbol is violating the separation of church and state?

It seems incredibly hypocritical to me to remain quiet and content on the hundreds and hundreds of cases where the ACLU has protected Christian rights to prayer, gathering, symbols, etc but then to blast the organization when a Christian turns out to be in the wrong. The ACLU is not "removing God" (c'mon, is God really THAT weak or small?) or attacking Christians, it's upholding the constitution. If this chapter or the people who reported this situation to the ACLU are overzealous or have jumped the gun, they will not win the case and will likely face repercussions. But if not, then I am certainly glad they are willing to be so conscious of the constitution, especially in the face of condemnation from those who want to be treated with special privilege because they happen to believe in the majority faith. It is naive and almost unbelievably foolish to claim the ACLU is against Christians when the ACLU has been the one organization willing to step in and stand for Christians who have been denied their freedom to gather, pray, worship as they see fit and utilize the freedom afforded in the constitution. You can't have your cake and eat it too, so it seems ridiculous to be anti-ACLU when you aren't benefitting and with it when you are.

Back on to this subject at hand -- I could care less about a giant, ugly cross or any other ostentatious monument, but I really question the reason someone needs to have such an ungainly thing smack in the middle of a cemetery. It sounds like someone feels the need to compensate for something, or someone hasn't read the part in the Bible about how it's not a great thing to brag and show off you faith or how pious you are. Displaying the giant cross seems like someone's way of pointing out what a great Christian they are, and if they feel compelled to demonstrate that, they've got my pity because showing off isn't what it's about. A smaller monument or a picture on the gravestone would suffice a lot better, while not turning anyone off by smug displays. However, if it was on private ground I'd have no problem, aside from finding it tacky and thinking it a little sad that someone is so desperate to show off what they believe that they need to dominate the view. Public land is a different thing. Religious symbols of any sort do not belong on public land. If the monument is illegal, it should be removed. There is no reason it could not be moved to private land, such as the front or back yard of the person owning it, the yard of the church or a private cemetery.
 
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Paula

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notto said:
It's not a private marker. It is a public one endorsed by the civil government,

The cross is presently being used as a private marker on a grave. The fact it was dedicated as a landmark gives it historic value, which certainly wouldn't render it illegal. In fact, its protected status is enhanced.

dedicated as a war memorial,

Since when is it illegal to place a war memorial in a government-owned cemetery? If the Landmark Commission has afforded it that status, more power to them!

and lighted at night.

It only has one dedicated light. Does this violate local ordinances or cemetery rules?

The original story didn't give the whole story.

The reporter did make a good faith effort to contact the ACLU and was forthright in making that disclosure. So it wasn't by design, as you've been trying to insinuate:

"NBC 4 was unable to reach anyone at the ACLU Ohio office, but ACLU Legislative Director Gary Daniels reportedly said the issue is under investigation."

http://www.nbc4i.com/news/4481346/detail.html


As a post-script, when I tried to link directly through the acluohio site following the above path, I was only allowed to see the article on the first page entitled, "Fantasy Wedding." Do you have membership on this site? Has this info been released to the public by the ACLU? In light of the fact they haven't made a formal statement to the press detailing their position, I find this most interesting.
 
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burrow_owl

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he cross is presently being used as a private marker on a grave.
Nope. It's just a plot of land that was given to a private party. If it was given to the private party by the government, there's a strong case that the donation is an attempt to circumvent church/state regs.
 
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Paula

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feral said:
Back on to this subject at hand -- I could care less about a giant, ugly cross or any other ostentatious monument, but I really question the reason someone needs to have such an ungainly thing smack in the middle of a cemetery. It sounds like someone feels the need to compensate for something, or someone hasn't read the part in the Bible about how it's not a great thing to brag and show off you faith or how pious you are.

How one designs their final resting place is a a very private matter, as people's tastes do vary dramatically. If someone wants to be buried on a hill at the foot of a cross, so be it. I think people's final wishes should be respected.

In the past, I've had occasion to visit and attend services at various cemeteries across the country. I'd have to say the most beautiful ones are in the northeast, where people seem to take more pride in being original.

During past visits, I've personally seen beautifully landscaped rolling hills, lavish fountains, lush flower gardens, much larger than life-sized statues of Jesus and the angels in many cemeteries back east. Wish we had those things out here. I think the plainest, most boring cemeteries in the world are most definitely in the western U.S.
 
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