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ACLU Wants Cross Removed from Cemetary Plot

TwinCrier

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RobWW said:
Would you approve if a Buddhist had a nice 100 ft. tall statue of Buddha placed in the cemetery? What about a giant crescent moon for Muslims? Would you approve of a pentacle on a pagans grave site? Do the same standards apply to Christians as the rest, or do you want special privileges as a Christian? Everytime I get the same thing, no response.

-Rob
Not a problem. Hey, it's their plot, they paid for it. In fact, I would venture to guess that any protest aginst such would be viewed as bigotry and hate. There is a double standard, but you're barking up the wrong tree.
 
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NewYorkGal

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CR0C0DILE said:
You can buy your own and do it. My father is alive and already has his tombstone in place . Only the year of death is blank, to be filled in later.
He even puts flowers on it and took pictures to see what it'll look like when he is gone, assuming we put flowers there.

Way back when, my grandparents bought several plots for themselves and their children, all adjoining one another in the same section of the cemetery. There is a good size monument already in place even though everyone is still alive. It's a beautiful monument with angels and a picture of Jesus on it, Bible verses about the resurrection. The names and birthdates of all their children and grandchildren are also engraved.
 
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Fineous_Reese

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why are atheists upset about this? it's just dead people, a little matter decaying in the ground. it's not like they're looking down (or up) and being insulted, they're dead! what's after death for an atheist? memories are still in the minds of those who knew them but that's about it. we should eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we might be buried next to a 10 ft statue of Uber that some adoring fan has raised ;)
 
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Brad'sDad

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wowbagger said:
I thought it was strange to find only one link in Google news. I was trying to find out if Gov't monies were used in any way to keep/maintain the cross. That is the usual gripe of the ACLU, and rightly so. If private money is used, I don't see why they cannot keep it as long as its big size and general ugliness are OK with the cemetery managers.

All they do in most cemeteries is maintain the grounds, mow the lawn, plant flowers, keep the place free of debris, etc. Some places don't even do that much. Taking care of memorials is the responsibility of the family of the deceased.
 
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wowbagger

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Fineous_Reese said:
why are atheists upset about this? it's just dead people, a little matter decaying in the ground. it's not like they're looking down (or up) and being insulted, they're dead! what's after death for an atheist? memories are still in the minds of those who knew them but that's about it. we should eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we might be buried next to a 10 ft statue of Uber that some adoring fan has raised ;)

Here is the beef....

---Private headstone and plot paid for and maintained privately = OK!!

---Government property with large religious symbol paid and maintained with public money = NOT OK

Atheists pay taxes too and don't want unconstitutional money going to the promotion of a religion.

This case doesn't seem to be paid for with public money, so most atheists would be perfectly fine with it, even if it is somewhat of an eyesore.
 
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awesome liver

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it doesn't matter where the tax money goes as long as it's not religously affiliated. money is used to fund information on health care, such as abortion. there was a supreme court case on this and the woman lost cos the government said that individual tax dollars matter not unless the money is spent on relgious matters.

as for the case, the cross is ungodly tacky. the aclu has grounds because the size and display of it is made not for the individual's sake of speech but to overshadow the rest of the cemetery.
 
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Brad'sDad

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wowbagger said:
Atheists pay taxes too and don't want unconstitutional money going to the promotion of a religion.

Non-atheists don't especially appreciate it when our tax monies are used to pay off settlements with the government in cases where the aclu has sued for so-called church/state violations. I also don't like it when my taxes go to pay off aclu attorneys fees.

This case doesn't seem to be paid for with public money, so most atheists would be perfectly fine with it, even if it is somewhat of an eyesore.

Another reason why the aclu needs to butt out of this.
 
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wvernon

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RobWW said:
Would you approve if a Buddhist had a nice 100 ft. tall statue of Buddha placed in the cemetery? What about a giant crescent moon for Muslims? Would you approve of a pentacle on a pagans grave site? Do the same standards apply to Christians as the rest, or do you want special privileges as a Christian? Everytime I get the same thing, no response.

-Rob

I honestly don't think many people would care.
 
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Iconoclast77

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AHHH! They don't hate Christianity! They're not anti-religious! There's a HUGE difference between being an atheist and wanting separation of church and state!!

Have you ever noticed that the ACLU is fighting to remove religious objects from government owned property???
 
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awesome liver

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the reading comprehension of christians must be statistically low in some parts.

what is the principle of separation of church and state as stated in the constitution (as derived from it by scotus and an inherent understanding of it by congress & the presidency)? wellllll i'm glad you're all wondering.

first, the definition of blasphemy:
Main Entry: blas·phe·my
Pronunciation: 'blas-f&-mE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -mies
1 a : the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God b : the act of claiming the attributes of deity
2 : irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable

glad we got that out of the way.

to claim god as being your own and having exclusive domain over his principles is inherently wrong by default of the people proclaiming such an atrocity. his will is no more the property of christians than it is to muslims and jews (after all, we all share the same god and many of the same angels).

the government works like this: power is derived from the people. law is derived from the people. the people as a collective are equal because of the mutal understanding that no one has any more rights than the guy next to them. our government is of the people for the people. now, when a religion is allowed to be endorsed and is endorsed by public figures while carrying out political duties, that deprives the citizenery of the collective voice. it unhinges the balance of mutual respect for one another.

religion, when injected into the public arena makes the playing field of political discourse uneven, when that religion is supported by the government -- not just as in the right to be practiced, but also by actively supporting its beliefs. it's saying "this religions is better than that one" and in this republic, that is repugnant. no religion is better than the other on the equal playing field.

the body politic is not meant to be a place where religions is endorsed. it is a place where the people discuss politics on equal footing. equality is ensured when the other guy doesn't hold a trump card over the other -- when that trump card comes from uncle sam.

why should the alcu want to interject itself in a case where someone places a hideous cross on a plot in a cemetery? because that cemetery is city owned. the individual plots are individually owned, but the grounds as a whole is city run and regulated. the community might bury christians in there and the occasional muslim and jew, but it's probably prodominantly christian. big whoop. the issue is that the size of it is hideous to the pubic and its perception of it. its size dominates. it's unfair to the other people who visit and are buried. it's a sign that screams, "here lies a christian (sometime in the future)" and "this cemetery is for christians. it goes to the issue of freedom of speech and free expression. yes, he can say that's he's christian and good for him that he is -- he can have a cross on his tombstone, but there's a line that's been crossed somewhere. on a government owned property, he's no longer acknowleding that he's a christian. he's show-boating, even boasting of the fact. a large cross evokes certain emotions in certain people. it's purpose is to get attention for itself and is no longer just an inscription to show his religious affiliation.
 
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ACougar

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I'm sure there will be as soon as a Buddhist, Muslim, or other Nonchristian has the bad taste to put up a 10 foot symbol in a public grave yard.

Paula said:
Has there ever been a case where the aclu forced a Buddhist, Muslim, or any other non-Christian to remove a religious symbol from a privately owned cemetery plot?
 
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ACougar

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4481029_200X150.jpg


A fitting monument to in your face religion. Despite the fact that it's ugly and doesn't fit in I don't see why anyone really feels the need to worry about it. Does it violate established standards? If yes then have it moved, if no then forget about it or adjust the rules.
 
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notto

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There might be a bit more to this story than the original article let on (surprise).

It seems this cross has been officially recognized as a war memorial, has a plaque to that effect, and at night, there are lights to illuminate it. Not your average 'private' grave marker.

(the following is a 2 page PDF document - the second page has the story )
http://www.acluohio.org/get_involved/chapters/AppNewsletter.pdf
 
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rahma

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ACougar said:
I'm sure there will be as soon as a Buddhist, Muslim, or other Nonchristian has the bad taste to put up a 10 foot symbol in a public grave yard.

Actually, now that people mention it, we muslims have a hard time even getting a cemetery approved, let alone putting up monuments in it.
 
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Norseman

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Paula said:
Standards for cemetery displays, including size, placement, etc. fall within the purview of responsibility of the owner/site manager of the cemetery, not the ACLU.

The ACLU has no authority whatsoever to remove religious symbols from personal gravesites. Selection of gravestones and religious symbols is the choice of family members, not government, and definitely not the ACLU.

That's all well and good, but It's a government owned cemetary, so that has nothing to do with anything.
 
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Zippythepinhead

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