yep so simple... yet disturbing for some because it makes them feel less special or superior in their religion.Telephone said:
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
yep so simple... yet disturbing for some because it makes them feel less special or superior in their religion.Telephone said:wow!
What fresh madness is this !
Belief in something is not a choice, this is so wonderfully simple it surprises me people are even trying to defend this comic assertion that one 'chooses' to believe.
If belief was a choice, I would simply go 'shopping' around the numerous faiths (every one the 'true' and 'only' faith) to see which one offered the best 'deal', the one which appealed most to my sensibilities and desires.
Maybe this is what theists do, or would do outside of the influence of parental and cultural indoctrination.
I made the wild assumption the green elephant was not there-how presumptious I am. I don't arbitrarily chose to believe in the existence of a reason for my existence. I use individual information, perception, experiences, disposition, reasoning etc. I am not however forced into that belief but chose it on my own.quatona said:How do you know? Can you see my desktop, and do you see what I see on it?
No, I have not said nor implied anything to that effect. I have said what you can reread in my previous post. You yourself were the one who started judging things "insane".
I was merely talking about beliefs being the result of individual information, perception, experiences, disposition etc. - as opposed to arbitrarily chosen.
You are different than me in all those respects, and therefore I could and would never make any statement about you.
In my opinion it is not a reasonable conclusion. People are being converted all the time into a belief different than the one they were born into. This means we can chose and it means we are not trapped into the belief we are born into. Futher in my opinion faith in the Christian God is about loving your neighbor and not about simple intellectual assent to existence. Paul taught that faith without love is worthless. James said faith without works is dead. Jesus said it not those who say Lord, Lord, but those who do what I say and He said the entire law of God is summed up in loving God and He said we love God by loving each other. This all reasonates with what I felt inside to be true. I think we are all given the ability to love and the knowledge that to love is good and to hate or be cruel to others is not good. We are not all given the knowledge that reincarnation is real.variant said:
Loving ones neighbor being a good Idea and all, it is simply not the point.
Almost every religion ever in existence sought to impose both a cultural morality through a linked set of metaphysical beliefs (In this case one should love thy neighbor because of a Christian God). The moralities of any religion may have been either superior or inferior to one another but that never proves the God, it proves the morality was better suited to forming a particular societys
Personally I have few issues with Christian morality, and I will never speak much if any ill words of any Christian who actually practices it or those who sincerely attempt to practice it. There are objective reasons why the tenants of such a moral system are worthwhile that have nothing to do with a belief in God. It is a good example of how to live. My problem has never been practicing morality (I try to do my best), it is the faith, and I simply don't have it. I dont think I could choose to have it either, any more than any of you could choose to believe in any religion you dont already believe in.
If it were true that truth in a moral system lead directly to the truth of a metaphysical system that was attached to it, we could say, abstract back from say the inherent truths found in Buddhism (which reads a lot like Christianity to me) to say that Nirvana and reincarnation are realities..
Is this a reasonable conclusion?
What do you mean - forced? By another person? That´s not my claim.elman said:I am not however forced into that belief
Fine. I don´t.but chose it on my own.
quatona said:Fine. I don´t.
How I honestly interpret this is... that it doesn't matter if there is a god as christian doctrine of love is a moral truth. Personally my own code of morality agrees. But the truth about the existence of god isn't contingent on how well a religion resonates with your moral code.elman said:Futher in my opinion faith in the Christian God is about loving your neighbor and not about simple intellectual assent to existence.
I disagree with 99% of what you type, but I feel compelled to point out where we agree.elman said:Paul taught that faith without love is worthless. James said faith without works is dead. Jesus said it not those who say Lord, Lord, but those who do what I say and He said the entire law of God is summed up in loving God and He said we love God by loving each other.
If your could you would be insane. Are you saying my choice to believe I was created for a reason and the Creator is interested in my loving others makes me as insane as you believing in the green elephant?
No...because of sin and choosing to reject God's forgiveness.
If you do that, you are the only one in which to blame.
Excuses are meaningless because you choose to sin everyday.
You decide to fufil your will over God's on a daily basis.
The fact is, there is no good to sin at all. Sins effects is already messing up society and having a harmful effect on folks now......claiming that sin, which is the choice of doing your will over God's, isn't harmful and has no affect on folks is inaccurate because sin is an action.
Telephone said:wow!
What fresh madness is this !
Belief in something is not a choice, this is so wonderfully simple it surprises me people are even trying to defend this comic assertion that one 'chooses' to believe.
If belief was a choice, I would simply go 'shopping' around the numerous faiths (every one the 'true' and 'only' faith) to see which one offered the best 'deal', the one which appealed most to my sensibilities and desires.
Maybe this is what theists do, or would do outside of the influence of parental and cultural indoctrination.
Sorry, I don´t understand who this "our" is in this sentence.icbeckyc said:I think that is our point.
I have understood that this is your claim. What however I am looking for is a substantiation.We can choose.
Can we agree, that this is not a logical conclusion, but a non-sequitur, i.e. but a mere assertion?What you see is not what I see so we can make separate choices.
Yes, we can agree upon that. Does being different from each constitute things/beings to have a choice? That would not match the definition of choice I am working with.We are both looking at the world and asking the question do I see God. You say you don't see him when I say I do see him.
quatona said:Can we agree, that this is not a logical conclusion, but a non-sequitur, i.e. but a mere assertion?
elman said:In my opinion it is not a reasonable conclusion. People are being converted all the time into a belief different than the one they were born into. This means we can chose and it means we are not trapped into the belief we are born into. Futher in my opinion faith in the Christian God is about loving your neighbor and not about simple intellectual assent to existence. Paul taught that faith without love is worthless. James said faith without works is dead. Jesus said it not those who say Lord, Lord, but those who do what I say and He said the entire law of God is summed up in loving God and He said we love God by loving each other. This all reasonates with what I felt inside to be true. I think we are all given the ability to love and the knowledge that to love is good and to hate or be cruel to others is not good. We are not all given the knowledge that reincarnation is real.
I have never taken the position that moral claims proved the existence of metaphysical reality but I have said it is some evidence that could make it reasonable to chose one belief system over another. If Jesus says love your neighbor and I already knew before He said it that was a good way to live, then He deserves more credit from me as a bearer of truth than a green elephant on your desk that does not exist or tell you anything.variant said:
I have doubts that you are even reading me.
Reincarnation is the metaphysical claim, not the moral one. Hinduism and Buddhism make lots of moral claims, some of which are true, which do not lead to the conclusion that reincarnation or nirvana are real.
This is the problem.
Almost all religions make moral claims ("We should love one another", or say, "Desire leads to suffering"), and almost all religions make metaphysical claims (God exists, or say, "Nirvana and reincarnation exist").
The problem is linking the two.
If I agree with you that it is a good idea to love one another (which I do), I don't have to jump to the conclusion that a Christian God exists, any more than If I agree with the idea that desire leads to suffering, I am not committed to the claim that nirvana or reincarnation exist.
The workability of a moral claim doesnt lead you to a metaphysical truth, it can not. Your argument is moot.
I see you using your ability to chose by chosing to believe you don't have any ability to choose-a belief you chose to believe by the way.quatona said:And it was not my claim either. It is your claim we are forced by cirmstances to chose as we do, otherwise you cannot sustain the argument we have no choice.What do you mean - forced? By another person? That´s not my claim.
Fine. I don´t.
This is the 1%that matters but I don't agree it is a humanist mandate. It is the teaching of Christianity and I think it is ultimately the only thing that matters. Incidently I don't think it is very important if you are correct or incorrect on the humanist mandate part. I think that 1% is 100% of what really matters.levi501 said:I don't know what you are saying. It does matter if there is a God who is loving and gives you life after death, otherwise, there is no destiny but the grave.How I honestly interpret this is... that it doesn't matter if there is a god as christian doctrine of love is a moral truth. Personally my own code of morality agrees. But the truth about the existence of god isn't contingent on how well a religion resonates with your moral code.
I disagree with 99% of what you type, but I feel compelled to point out where we agree.
I believe "love" to be the sole doctrine of christianity... and is infact a humanist mandate by jesus himself.
Matt 22:36-4
Rom 13:8-10
Gal 5:14
Text book example for begging the question.elman said:I see you using your ability to chose by chosing to believe you don't have any ability to choose-a belief you chose to believe by the way.
Well, "forced" would be a pretty loaded term for that. I haven´t used it, so I would kindly ask you not to paraphrase my statements using it.elman said:And it was not my claim either. It is your claim we are forced by cirmstances to chose as we do, otherwise you cannot sustain the argument we have no choice.
elman said:I have never taken the position that moral claims proved the existence of metaphysical reality but I have said it is some evidence that could make it reasonable to chose one belief system over another. If Jesus says love your neighbor and I already knew before He said it that was a good way to live, then He deserves more credit from me as a bearer of truth than a green elephant on your desk that does not exist or tell you anything.
JustJack! said:I've never rejected God. I've only rejected what Christians have told me about God.
Lot of people have never heard of your God. Lot of people are brainwashed into their own local religious sect at an early age, in countries where conversion gets your hung. That kinda stacks the odds, doesn't it. Are the still responsible.
I choose not to be enslaved to a false religion and it's oppressive, insane rules, and logical absurdities and extremely cruel Deity.
1. God wants me help, He'll let me know.
2. God wants something done, he doesn't need my help.
If that's sin, then I have never once sinned. Again, if God wants me to do something, He'll let me know. Your Bible, your preist, your religion isn't God and sure as hell isn't good enough to speak for God. .
I'll make it real clear for ya'll. The sky is blue. I can not look up, and believe the sky is red. I can pretend it's red, I can act like it's red, but in my heart of hearts, I will know it isn't red.
Same with Christianity. It just doesn't make any sence. I can go though to motion, pretend to break down and cry Jesus, but it won't be sincere. It would be an insurance policy, and a bad one at that.
Now if I'm to be held accountable for your religions' lack of evidence, your religions' hypocracy, your religions' illogical assertions, then so be it. I will stand before your God, and tell Him just why I never believed in him by name, job getting His message across.
Because it is the truth.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?