According to Princeton, the US is now an Oligarchy

[OldWiseGuy]

No, it isn't. Money is.

-- A2SG, money is powerful enough to override even the most ardent and zealous competition.....

Lazy people want everything handed to them, and soon their 'benefactors' take full advantage.

How can a representative democracy survive when less than half the adults turn out to vote.

Also, government and big business can only 'take over' if the people allow it, and we have welcomed them with open arms by demanding cradle to grave benefits. Just look at the federal, state, and local budgets. They can't keep up with the mess that the citizens are creating. A large government/business complex is needed to even begin to address these problems. If indeed we are becoming an oligarchy we've not just asked for it, we've demanded it.

And we don't have enough sense to reverse it if we wanted to. Any good sense that we might have had has been educated out us.

 

[A2SG]

Lazy people want everything handed to them, and soon their 'benefactors' take full advantage.

Not everyone is lazy, but the power of money in politics is able to overwhelm even the most ardent and zealous. And now, with Citizens United, it can do so quite legally and unfettered.

How did "lazy people" allow Citizens United to happen?

How can a representative democracy survive when less than half the adults turn out to vote.

Quite well, just without their voices being heard.

Also, government and big business can only 'take over' if the people allow it, and we have welcomed them with open arms by demanding cradle to grave benefits.

Who is "we" and what are these "cradle to grave benefits" you talk about? Specifics, please.

Just look at the federal, state, and local budgets. They can't keep up with the mess that the citizens are creating. A large government/business complex is needed to even begin to address these problems. If indeed we are becoming an oligarchy we've not just asked for it, we've demanded it.

A large government isn't the same as an oligarchy. Government should address the needs of the people, whatever those needs are...but when it addresses only the needs of those with a lot of money, you're on the road to an oligarchy.

And we don't have enough sense to reverse it if we wanted to.

Sure we can. Our government still derives its just powers through the consent of the governed, and a popular movement can make a difference. Just look at the civil rights struggle in the 50s and 60s for evidence. The problem is too many people support the right of rich people to make the rules, because they want to be rich themselves some day. Of course, the problem with that is that the rich are very greedy and don't like new people in their private pool.

Any good sense that we might have had has been educated out us.

What's wrong with education? Knowledge is a good thing.

-- A2SG, if you think education is a problem, try ignorance.....

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What's wrong with education? Knowledge is a good thing.

-- A2SG, if you think education is a problem, try ignorance.....

We are not on the same page. Here's an example of what I'm talking about. The citizen in charge of these recycling carts has cleared the terrace of snow. This makes it easy for him to place them at the curb and easy for the city to empty them. You'll notice that no other property (in view) has done this. Carts are routinely placed on top of the snow where they often fall into the street or onto the sidewalk, making big mess for everyone. This costs the city more time and money to collect them, giving them more justification to raise taxes and thus seize more economic power. The people are too stupid to realize this and too lazy to do anything about it.

Multiply this additional cost by hundreds of government services that suffer from the same citizen ignorance and you have a recipe more government than anyone wants in their life.

Oh and what's worse, nearly 20 percent of the stuff in those carts city wide isn't recyclable, including wet, smelly garbage.

Of course the responsible citizen here is me. I have been clearing snow for the carts since the recycle program began many years ago.

The top picture shows the neighbor's carts on top of the snow bank. They've been there for two weeks. The Tudor style building on the right places their carts in the driveway, forcing several who park in the underground lot to move them in order to get out. The building has a snow blower which would clear space on the terrace for their carts in just a few minutes. It is a puzzlement to me why they don't. What would you say, laziness or stupidity?

 

[A2SG]

We are not on the same page. Here's an example of what I'm talking about. The citizen in charge of these recycling carts has cleared the terrace of snow. This makes it easy for him to place them at the curb and easy for the city to empty them. You'll notice that no other property (in view) has done this. Carts are routinely placed on top of the snow where they often fall into the street or onto the sidewalk, making big mess for everyone. This costs the city more time and money to collect them, giving them more justification to raise taxes and thus seize more economic power. The people are too stupid to realize this and too lazy to do anything about it.

Multiply this additional cost by hundreds of government services that suffer from the same citizen ignorance and you have a recipe more government than anyone wants in their life.

Oh and what's worse, nearly 20 percent of the stuff in those carts city wide isn't recyclable, including wet, smelly garbage.
View attachment 168330
Of course the responsible citizen here is me. I have been clearing snow for the carts since the recycle program began many years ago. No one else on my street has ever done the same.

Um, good for you...?

Not sure what this has to do with the rise of money in politics, but it is nice to hear you've shoveled your walk.

-- A2SG, you're still conflating large government with an oligarchy, though.....

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Um, good for you...?

Not sure what this has to do with the rise of money in politics, but it is nice to hear you've shoveled your walk.

-- A2SG, you're still conflating large government with an oligarchy, though.....

I referenced large government/business complex. When you rebutted that statement you left that part out. Not good to rearrange my comments so you can take issue with them. Tsk, tsk.

You are talking about the rise of money in politics, not me. I'm address what I consider a larger problem; the trashing of America by it's citizens.

 

[A2SG]

You are talking about the rise of money in politics, not me. I'm address what I consider a larger problem; the trashing of America by it's citizens.

Check the OP, dude.

But, to your point, I'm not sure how christianity is going to change things. Christians can be just as trashy or lazy as anyone else.

-- A2SG, or maybe your neighbors have full time jobs as well as other responsibilities, and don't have as much time to shovel the walk as others do.....

 

[OldWiseGuy]

.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

But, to your point, I'm not sure how christianity is going to change things. Christians can be just as trashy or lazy as anyone else.

My main reference was responsible citizens.

-- A2SG, or maybe your neighbors have full time jobs as well as other responsibilities, and don't have as much time to shovel the walk as others do.....

They would save themselves time later by shoveling it or having their snow removal service do it. Once it freezes it's there until thaw. They just don't think of it. But it brings up another point; after a heavy snow shouldn't time be made to clear the snow properly, so we don't have to fight it all winter? Look what happens in cities like Chicago, New York, or Buffalo when they have a big storm. Everyone tries to go to work when they should be helping with snow removal. It's crazy stupid.

This is no small thing where I live. The city often doesn't plow the side streets. The snow is packed down by traffic into an ice pack that cannot be removed with salt or plowing. It's terrible, especially when it begins to thaw. There are hundreds of small snow plow services that could volunteer to plow a few of these side streets at little cost or time. To my knowledge none has ever done this.

If the snow is really deep I clear a walking path for my neighbors in both directions. It only takes a few extra minutes, and (please don't mention this to anyone) I actually enjoy doing it.

Did I mention that I spent three seasons picking up trash (dating back to the 1950's, steel beverage cans, etc.) in the State Forest where I hunt? It was so bad I couldn't stand it, but I realized that I had to do it as no one else was going to. I actually enjoyed that too. Shhhhh.

 

[A2SG]

My main reference was responsible citizens.

Which includes christians and non-christians. Being christian doesn't make one responsible, nor does being responsible require that one be christian.

At best, it's irrelevant; much like whether or not one watches The Big Bang Theory.

They would save themselves time later by shoveling it or having their snow removal service do it. Once it freezes it's there until thaw. They just don't think of it. But it brings up another point; after a heavy snow shouldn't time be made to clear the snow properly, so we don't have to fight it all winter? Look what happens in cities like Chicago, New York, or Buffalo when they have a big storm. Everyone tries to go to work when they should be helping with snow removal. It's crazy stupid.

This is no small thing where I live. The city often doesn't plow the side streets. The snow is packed down by traffic into an ice pack that cannot be removed with salt or plowing. It's terrible, especially when it begins to thaw. There are hundreds of small snow plow services that could volunteer to plow a few of these side streets at little cost or time. To my knowledge none has ever done this.

Well, I guess we all have our pet peeves.

-- A2SG, me, it's saying "ax" instead of "ask"......also proper use of apostrophes....so many people have no idea when to use one or not to!

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Well, I guess we all have our pet peeves.

One man's pet peeve is another man's national problem, and some people aren't bothered by anything.

 

[A2SG]

One man's pet peeve is another man's national problem. It's all in your point of view.

Yeah, I'm not sure snow removal is quite the national problem you see it to be, or as indicative of a national problem as you think, nor do I see how it offers insight into the issue of the US becoming an oligarchy.....but hey, whatever floats your boat.

But as a native New Englander, I'll attest that it's a pain in the behind.

and some people aren't bothered by anything.

Well now, I wouldn't say that.

-- A2SG, remember the bit about "ax" and apostrophes......

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yeah, I'm not sure snow removal is quite the national problem you see it to be, or as indicative of a national problem as you think, nor do I see how it offers insight into the issue of the US becoming an oligarchy.....but hey, whatever floats your boat.......

I make a connection between a thoughtless, lazy citizenry and abusive government (Oligarchy?). When Jefferson said, "That which governs least governs best", he implied that if citizens didn't govern their own actions and behavior the government would do it for them. Franklin stated, "We have given you a republic, if you can keep it". If we are unable to "keep it" what would take it's place? Probably an oligarchy. Why wouldn't we be able to keep it? The usual human weaknesses, that Christianity labors to address.

The vices that infect and destroy nations are (gasp) the very same vices mentioned in scripture.

 

[A2SG]

I make a connection between a thoughtless, lazy citizenry and abusive government (Oligarchy?). When Jefferson said, "That which governs least governs best", he implied that if citizens didn't govern their own actions and behavior the government would do it for them. Franklin stated, "We have given you a republic, if you can keep it". If we are unable to "keep it" what would take it's place? Probably an oligarchy. Why wouldn't we be able to keep it? The usual human weaknesses, that Christianity labors to address.

The vices that infect and destroy nations are (gasp) the very same vices mentioned in scripture.

Including the bit about rich men, camels and needles?

Thing is, christianity isn't going to prevent the US from becoming an oligarchy...heck, many of the richest people who are pulling the strings are christian. What will stave off the power of money in politics is the only thing more powerful than money in politics.

People.

Not just christians. Everyone.

The consent of the governed.

-- A2SG, never said it was gonna be easy......

 

[stamperben]

Paul was pretty clear when he spoke "by permission and not by commandment".

Laziness is an invitation to oligarchy.

So you don't have any of the words of Jesus telling the poor to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Thought not.

 

[ecco]

It's a simple example. Why screw it up just for sake of arguing?

I inject humor. You think I'm arguing. Instead of OldWiseGuy, maybe it should be GrumpyOldMan.

 

[stamperben]

I inject humor. You think I'm arguing. Instead of OldWiseGuy, maybe it should be GrumpyOldMan.

Hey now, I reflect that caricature of being old and grumpy. However curmudgeonly malcontent might fit better, at least in my case.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Hey now, I reflect that caricature of being old and grumpy. However curmudgeonly malcontent might fit better, at least in my case.

That comes with age. Mmmmmm, I wonder why?

 

[stamperben]

That comes with age. Mmmmmm, I wonder why?

Because we've seen a lot in our lifetimes.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Because we've seen a lot in our lifetimes.

!

Sadly our experience is of no value to younger folks. Each generation has to reinvent the wheel.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

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