According to Princeton, the US is now an Oligarchy

[A2SG]

Let's set some parameters. What years do you include in the 'present' terrible economy?

You made the comparison, not me.

But, for my part, I'd consider anything past, oh, say 2008 as part of the present "terrible economy" and lackluster recovery.

-- A2SG, but the OP article does include a wider timeline for its point, a couple of decades or so.....

 

[OldWiseGuy]

But, for my part, I'd consider anything past, oh, say 2008 as part of the present "terrible economy" and lackluster recovery.

-- A2SG, but the OP article does include a wider timeline for its point, a couple of decades or so.....

I think the seeds of the present recession were sown in the early 1990's with the high flying stock market, which eventually lost 50 percent of it's overinflated value. The next wave of financial blunders was the overinflated real estate market which caused massive bank failures and catastrophic losses of personal wealth, some richly deserved i.e. speculators.

I prospered through all of it because I did the exact opposite of what everyone else was doing (yes, prudence and patience are Christian values).

 

[A2SG]

I think the seeds of the present recession were sown in the early 1990's with the high flying stock market, which eventually lost 50 percent of it's overinflated value. The next wave of financial blunders was the overinflated real estate market which caused massive bank failures and catastrophic losses of personal wealth, some richly deserved i.e. speculators.

I prospered through all of it because I did the exact opposite of what everyone else was doing (yes, prudence and patience are Christian values).

As are helping the poor and treating your neighbor like you, yourself, would want to be treated. Still, even if those righteous traits were to become more common, while the would might be a more pleasant place to live, I fail to see the economic benefit to society, sufficient to curtail the power of money in politics.

How could righteous Christians have prevented the US from becoming an oligarchy? And further, if they could have, why didn't they?

-- A2SG, that's still the question.....regardless of how much either of us made in any given year.....

 

[OldWiseGuy]

As are helping the poor and treating your neighbor like you, yourself, would want to be treated. Still, even if those righteous traits were to become more common, while the would might be a more pleasant place to live, I fail to see the economic benefit to society, sufficient to curtail the power of money in politics.

How could righteous Christians have prevented the US from becoming an oligarchy? And further, if they could have, why didn't they?

-- A2SG, that's still the question.....regardless of how much either of us made in any given year.....

All societies are de facto oligarchies. The rich and powerful are the prime movers. Nothing new here. America was largely built on English money, even after independence.

Jesus asked, "Whose inscription is on the coin?" Caesars's of course. He also said, "Make friends (by use of) the unrighteous mammon." Christian charity, using Caesar's money, does this quite nicely. Properly managing Caesar's money in your personal account also stabilizes Caesar's economy, if only to a small degree (although it's still doomed to fail from time to time).

 

[A2SG]

All societies are de facto oligarchies. The rich and powerful are the prime movers. Nothing new here. America was largely built on English money, even after independence.

Maybe so, but the Constitution was intended to provide protection against that kinda thing. However, with rulings like Citizens United, and money interests driving the agenda of one political party, even as they control the other one outright, the move toward an actual, functioning oligarchy has become all but guaranteed now.

Jesus asked, "Whose inscription is on the coin?" Caesars's of course. He also said, "Make friends (by use of) the unrighteous mammon." Christian charity, using Caesar's money, does this quite nicely.

If so, then why is poverty and hunger still such a large problem? Seems to me, christian charity isn't sufficient to the problem of poverty in this country.

And, let's not forget, helping the poor was one of the things Jesus himself was very insistent that his followers do.

Properly managing Caesar's money in your personal account also stabilizes Caesar's economy, if only to a small degree (although it's still doomed to fail from time to time).

But it does nothing to stave off an oligarchy.

And, further, it doesn't seem to be working too well these days.

- A2SG, seems to me, if you're correct that "righteous (preferably Christian) people" can save this country, they're choosing not to.....

 

[toastface_grillah]

In your comment about Yachts? Those huge boats do bring many jobs for the area. Good paying jobs. You sound like you have a chip on your shoulder over them even having yachts, so getting rid of the jobs they are create is no big deal. That's rather short sighted. It's a big deal to those that work on them.

Nope, it doesn't bother me if people have yachts - they can buy an entire fleet if they like. What bothers me about it is that this one specific item for one specific class of people has a sales tax exemption because it'll bring jobs to the area, whereas other items don't get a similar tax break simply because of the jobs they generate.

Waitstaff, Food service and the like are needed right now...because of the lack of jobs. Remember all the protests for $15/hr? They say those are the only jobs around, and so they want a living wage for the jobs that are left. Now you are going to claim its only the illegals that take them? I mean which is it? When companies go off shore where do you think many of those many find work?

Nope. I didn't say that only illegal immigrants are taking foodservice and waitstaff jobs - though I did say that those are some of the jobs they're taking.

Maybe people need to look at the business climate overall, and realize there are more moving parts to the business environment than just corporate taxes. We have the one of the higher tax rates in the world, and we are having major issues with companies not investing here. There is more to it than just corporate taxes, but for some reason that is the only thing people want to talk about. If they can take their 'hoarded' profits, and grow their business elsewhere? They will. If the business climate is stagnate right now - due to all kinds of issues - they will hold off until something changes.

Why do people think if they raise fees, taxes, regulations fees, etc MORE it will bring more jobs - when the corporate environment is saying just the opposite? I mean its as if people think if they say it enough things will just magically change to their reality.

We need to find some balance, because no one seems to understand the whole picture. Company's aren't going to hoard profits elsewhere if they can make more profits here. Profit and growth is their goal. Growth means needing more employees.

Which regulations are making it harder for business to operate here, and what should we do differently?

 

[ecco]

In your comment about Yachts? Those huge boats do bring many jobs for the area. Good paying jobs. You sound like you have a chip on your shoulder over them even having yachts, so getting rid of the jobs they are create is no big deal. That's rather short sighted. It's a big deal to those that work on them.

Care to look at these sites and tell us how many yacht builders are providing good jobs in America?
http://www.superyachts.com/directory/yacht-builders.htm
http://agenceluxury.com/top-10-superyacht-builders-to-make-your-dream-a-reality/

Meanwhile, back to the topic of the OP:

Democratic members of the conference committee trying to work out a budget agreement have drafted a memo listing “egregious tax loopholes” that they plan to raise publicly as early as next week if Republicans continue to balk at considering some new tax revenue to help soften sequester cuts.

The items contained on the list range from such well-tread suggestions as ending special deductions for corporate jet owners, to stopping subsidies for yachts or vacation homes, to “closing a loophole that lets hedge fund managers pay lower tax rates on their income than teachers and firefighters.” The injection of such populism is sure to exacerbate the partisan tensions in the budget talks.​

Tax loopholes for the wealthy? Really? WhoDuThunkIt?

 

[grasping the after wind]

Oligarchies are not run by outside forces they are run by the actual group of rulers with the coercive power of government . Yes, one could argue that the U. S has become a fascistic oligarchy but there seems to be a total misconception by some about which group is in charge. Who benefits the most from the current situation? It is the political class as represented by the two political parties. The ones that that makes the rules everyone else is subjected to but they themselves are not. Their corporate cronies are in no position to dictate what the politicians do they must deliver the bribes and protection money that is demanded of them or they will have to face the consequences. the threat of selective prosecutions are a wonderful tool for the bureaucrat class to extort money from a corporation or to show favor to a crony corporation that has curried that favor over time.The problem is too many people are deluded into thinking that the power lies in those being forced to pony up the money rather than those that are putting the arm on them.Claiming the multitude of corporations are the source of the problem because they take part in the operation is like claiming Capone was by his underlings into criminal activity. The ones that write the the rules of the game are the ones in charge.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Maybe so, but the Constitution was intended to provide protection against that kinda thing. However, with rulings like Citizens United, and money interests driving the agenda of one political party, even as they control the other one outright, the move toward an actual, functioning oligarchy has become all but guaranteed now.

True Christians want God's rule, but most still want a 'king'.

If so, then why is poverty and hunger still such a large problem? Seems to me, christian charity isn't sufficient to the problem of poverty in this country.

And, let's not forget, helping the poor was one of the things Jesus himself was very insistent that his followers do.

Jesus, speaking through Paul, also said, "If a man doesn't work, he shouldn't eat."

But it does nothing to stave off an oligarchy.

And, further, it doesn't seem to be working too well these days.

- A2SG, seems to me, if you're correct that "righteous (preferably Christian) people" can save this country, they're choosing not to.....

I guess there just aren't enough of us to actually save the country, but we are slowing the destruction down somewhat (salt of the earth and all that).

 

[A2SG]

True Christians want God's rule, but most still want a 'king'.

Then why do these "true christians" choose to live in the US, which is led by neither?

Jesus, speaking through Paul, also said, "If a man doesn't work, he shouldn't eat."

Jesus, speaking for Himself, said "whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me."

I guess there just aren't enough of us to actually save the country, but we are slowing the destruction down somewhat (salt of the earth and all that).

How?

-- A2SG, and don't be afraid to be as specific as necessary....

 

[ecco]

Oligarchies are not run by outside forces they are run by the actual group of rulers with the coercive power of government...The ones that write the the rules of the game are the ones in charge.

The ones that dictate how the rules are written are the ones in charge.

Do you really believe that a bunch of upper middle class Congressmen are in favor of allowing corporations to send billions of dollars to offshore entities to avoid paying taxes because it is in the best interest of the country? The do it because they want to get reelected. They know they need money to get reelected. They get the money from wealthy contributors who (as just one example) own businesses that want to hide profits offshore with the knowledge that some of this money will flow back into their personal fortunes.

There is a really good article here...(my emphasis)

http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/the-worlds-5-most-poweful-oligarchies/

The age old question has been asked over and over again, who controls the world? The answer is not as complex as many may think. From the times of the ancient empires of yesterday to the geopolitical world powers of today, there are powerful elements in our modern society who make every effort to ensure their family, friends, associates and networks of influence will always remain in control. Famous banker and oligarch, Mayer Amschel Rothschild has been quoted many times stating “Let us control the money of a nation, and we care not who makes its laws.”
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Many Americans would like to believe that they still live within a democracy. However, recently the term oligarchy has begun to be used in order to describe who and how the U.S. is led. A recent study titled, Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups and Average Citizens, supported this idea by concluding that elitist business groups have a greater impact on U.S. polices when compared to average citizens. To make matters worse, in 2010 the Supreme Court gave corporations and elitists free reign as they are now allowed to put as much of their money into federal campaigns as they wish. This leaves the United States to be controlled by small group of wealthy citizens while the average citizen’s voice remains unheard.​

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Then why do these "true christians" choose to live in the US, which is led by neither?

True Christians are 'spirit led' wherever they live.

Jesus, speaking for Himself, said "whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me."

There's a difference between the truly needy and malingerers. Jesus addressed both.

How?

-- A2SG, and don't be afraid to be as specific as necessary....

Take a group of 10 people who are less than honest.

One of them converts to Christianity and becomes honest.

Theft has been reduced by 10 percent (in that population).

 

[stamperben]

There's a difference between the truly needy and malingerers. Jesus addressed both.

Show us in the words in red where Jesus addressed the "malingerers". Not Paul's writings, but the words directly attributed to Jesus.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Show us in the words in red where Jesus addressed the "malingerers". Not Paul's writings, but the words directly attributed to Jesus.

Don't you believe the Paul spoke for Jesus? I also think the Proverbs have something to say about laziness.

 

[stamperben]

Don't you believe the Paul spoke for Jesus? I also think the Proverbs have something to say about laziness.

I think Paul wrote what he wrote under whatever influence he felt. He did not write what are supposed to be the actual words of Jesus. That's why in at least one of my translations the words of Christ are in red. Do you have those verses or not?

I have no idea what you are trying to say about laziness.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I think Paul wrote what he wrote under whatever influence he felt. He did not write what are supposed to be the actual words of Jesus. That's why in at least one of my translations the words of Christ are in red. Do you have those verses or not?

I have no idea what you are trying to say about laziness.

Paul was pretty clear when he spoke "by permission and not by commandment".

Laziness is an invitation to oligarchy.

 

[A2SG]

True Christians are 'spirit led' wherever they live.

That doesn't answer my question. If they want to be led by god or a king, why live in a country where neither can lead? Not like they're not free to move elsewhere and create a theocracy, if they want to.

I hear Texas is nice, and they seem open to the idea of seceding.

There's a difference between the truly needy and malingerers. Jesus addressed both.

Ah. So help the poor, but if you don't feel they deserve it, let them decrease the surplus population?

I guess, all these years, I've misunderstood what "christian charity" really means.

Take a group of 10 people who are less than honest.

One of them converts to Christianity and becomes honest.

Theft has been reduced by 10 percent (in that population).

Converting to christianity doesn't guarantee honesty, nor is it required to be honest.

And I still fail to see how individual honesty, or christianity itself, can stave off the power of money in politics.

-- A2SG, which you did claim it could.....

 

[A2SG]

Laziness is an invitation to oligarchy.

No, it isn't. Money is.

-- A2SG, money is powerful enough to override even the most ardent and zealous competition.....

 

[ecco]

Take a group of 10 people who are less than honest.

One of them converts to Christianity and becomes honest.

Theft has been reduced by 10 percent (in that population).

No. The number of thieves has been reduced by 10 percent (in that population)

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No. The number of thieves has been reduced by 10 percent (in that population)

It's a simple example. Why screw it up just for sake of arguing?