Accepting Jesus as your lord and savior.

Hentenza · Apr 28, 2011

Upisoft said:
Yes, destruction is death, but death is not necessarily destruction. So if the wages of sin is death, how this imply it also means destruction?

The quote says we die once. It also speaks about salvation, but I don't see 2nd spiritual death mentioned.

The second spiritual death happens at the resurrection of the unbeliever. It is depicted in Revelation 20:

11Then I saw a great white (AL)throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence (AM)earth and heaven fled away, and (AN)no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the (AO)great and the small, standing before the throne, and (AP)books were opened; and another book was opened, which is (AQ)the book of life; and the dead (AR)were judged from the things which were written in the books, (AS)according to their deeds.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and (AT)death and Hades (AU)gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them (AV)according to their deeds.
14Then (AW)death and Hades were thrown into (AX)the lake of fire This is the (AY)second death, the lake of fire.
15And if anyone's name was not found written in (AZ)the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

drich0150 · Apr 28, 2011

Upisoft said:
In another thread I was told that I have to accept Jesus as my Lord and savior.

To what end? Why was he insisting on this? Was his ultimate Goal your ultimate goal?

The guy was making clear what he was saying by "to accept Jesus". As I pointed out I accept Jesus as a character from a book.

If your goal was to accept Jesus as a Character in a book then it seems you have done what you set out to do. However if you were even remotely interested in anything he was saying then know you will have to expand your definition and willingness to Except Christ as your Lord and savior.

Then I asked why should I accept him as my lord and savior?

That is something you must answer for your self. I am sure by now someone has at least tried to Explain the concept of Heaven and Hell to you.

As far as I know the Bible says that:
So, the wages for sin is death, Jesus died to pay the wages, but people definitely are still dying.

Death as in the passage you quoted speaks to a Spiritual death. Not a physical one.

So, according to the scripture, we still continue to pay for our sins.

We do not pay anything. However we do indeed reap what we sow. The difference? Payment means you have settled the debt you owe. Reaping what you sow simply means that if you plant a seed of grain you will harvest a stalk of grain. Like wise if you plant a seed of sin you will harvest the consequences of that sin.

For example if you have multiple sexual partners then chances are you will get someone pregnant or contract a VD. The sin is sex out side of marriage your reward or your harvest is the VD or unplanned pregnancy. You still owe a sin debt. that debt was/is your Spiritual death.

I got no answers, so I moved this question here.

At this point it looks like you've got 3 pages of answers so now what will you do?

Upisoft · Apr 28, 2011

Ih8s8n said:
Upisoft: Hello, my old friend. I hope that your wife and children are well.

Hey! Where have you been?
Everybody is quite good, except my bank account. I had to pay the taxes for the last year.

Ih8s8n said:
I'm sorry, but what you're doing is pulling verses out of their complete context. For example, in regards to physical death, in Romans, we also read:

You are correct, of course, but I was doing so, because the obvious problem the 2nd type of death brings. You see, Jesus had to die from that 2nd type of death too, if the "wages of sin is [2nd death]". Otherwise he haven't "died for our sins".

Ih8s8n said:
"And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Romans 8:10-11)

"the body is dead because of sin" is confirmation about my hypothesis that "the wages of sin is [physical] death". I can see second life expressed here, but there is nothing about second "spiritual death" in this verse.

Ih8s8n said:
Aside from the righteous saints who are alive at Christ's coming, everyone, whether Christian or not, will still experience physical death. As we just read, "the body is dead because of sin". In other words, Christ's atonement doesn't remove the aspect of physical death, but, rather, through His atonement, He indwells His followers with the same Spirit that raised Him from the dead. Such an indwelling, which is referred to as "the earnest of the Spirit" or "the downpayment of the Spirit", is a sign to God's people that the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead will also one day quicken their mortal bodies in the resurrection that is to come. Basically, what you've done is to ignore all of the verses that surround the two that you quoted that also speak of the necessity of Christ rising from the dead to defeat death for us. Once again, this "defeat" does not mean that physical death will not come upon Christ's followers, but rather that it has no permanent hold on them. I hope that you understand the difference between the two (not meant in a condescending way...just my sincere hope for you).

Take care.

So, if I can read well, you say that the meaning of Romans 6:23 is actually: "wages of sin is [physical permanent] death".
Am I doing well?

If I'm doing well, then Jesus had to die from physical permanent death to pay for our sins. But nope, the scripture says he was resurrected.

Upisoft · Apr 28, 2011

drich0150 said:
However if you were even remotely interested in anything he was saying then know you will have to expand your definition and willingness to Except Christ as your Lord and savior.

And for that I need reason. If I have reason I'll be interested for sure.

drich0150 said:
That is something you must answer for your self. I am sure by now someone has at least tried to Explain the concept of Heaven and Hell to you.

Actually that happened so many times that I lost count of number of different versions presented to me. The common thing was that one gets punished for lack of belief (or having too much money, or being too smart, etc.) The punishment actually is never "works" based, because you are guilty by default and you never get chance to prove otherwise. If you believe, however, you will not be judged despite being guilty.

drich0150 said:
Death as in the passage you quoted speaks to a Spiritual death. Not a physical one.

We actually discussed it already. You may read the discussion and add more useful definition of "spiritual death".

drich0150 said:
We do not pay anything.

Romans 6:23 says otherwise. "For the wages of sin is death." Read it however you like, but you can't say the death (whatever type you like it to be) is not payment for sin.

drich0150 said:
However we do indeed reap what we sow. The difference? Payment means you have settled the debt you owe. Reaping what you sow simply means that if you plant a seed of grain you will harvest a stalk of grain. Like wise if you plant a seed of sin you will harvest the consequences of that sin.

Do you say that the actual meaning of 1 Corinthians 15:3 is that Jesus harvested the consequences of our sin?

drich0150 said:
At this point it looks like you've got 3 pages of answers so now what will you do?

I'm not risking to predict what I'll do.

Ih8s8n · Apr 28, 2011

Upisoft: I'll say this much...

You make me have to think. Unfortunately, I'm exhausted because I've been pretty much working around the clock for weeks. I'll try to answer your latest post tomorrow, after some much needed sleep.

Good night, my friend.

drich0150 · Apr 28, 2011

Upisoft said:
And for that I need reason. If I have reason I'll be interested for sure.

What is the reason you are here? After all this is a Christian forum. You must be searching for something. It is to this reason (not the pretend reason you will state) that you have come back here year after year after year after year. People who have real "pretend reasons" at the heart of their efforts are not so faithful as you have proven to be.

Actually that happened so many times that I lost count of number of different versions presented to me. The common thing was that one gets punished for lack of belief (or having too much money, or being too smart, etc.) The punishment actually is never "works" based, because you are guilty by default and you never get chance to prove otherwise. If you believe, however, you will not be judged despite being guilty.

If you believe yourself to be above the medieval interpretations of scripture and doctrine based on punishment then graduate yourself into the doctrine of Choice. In that sin is not another word for guilt. Sin is choice. With that choice one (in his sin) must choose to spend eternity with God. Those who (in their sin) do not choose to spend an eternity with God will not be forced to do so.

We actually discussed it already. You may read the discussion and add more useful definition of "spiritual death".

If you wish to discuss it further then at least point me in to the right post number. if not I will understand.

Romans 6:23 says otherwise. "For the wages of sin is death." Read it however you like, but you can't say the death (whatever type you like it to be) is not payment for sin.

I wish to read it as it is written. it says the wage of sin.. Not that we owe a wage of sin. This means for the sin we have committed we have EARNED Death. A Spiritual death. So if you were to read it as it was written Romans 6:23 does not say otherwise.

Do you say that the actual meaning of 1 Corinthians 15:3 is that Jesus harvested the consequences of our sin?

What did I say that lead you to believe this? Please take the time to explain.

Upisoft · Apr 29, 2011

drich0150 said:
What is the reason you are here? After all this is a Christian forum. You must be searching for something. It is to this reason (not the pretend reason you will state) that you have come back here year after year after year after year. People who have real "pretend reasons" at the heart of their efforts are not so faithful as you have proven to be.

The reason I'm here is that I have friends here. Do you think that is a bad reason? Also I have fun and interesting discussions. The reason I came here is that at the time there was that big and still existing debate Evolution vs. Creationism. So, I was visiting a physics forum site, as I generally have interests in this section of science. There were some Christians visiting this site and debating that science is fairy tales and that their view point is the truth. I was interested why and how people can have such ideas, so I came here at this site, where non-Christians are usually welcomed. (with: "After all this is a Christian forum." in your case)
At physical site people were quite rude most of the time and there were too little Christians there, so my questions and interest lead me here. During the time here I had some periods with serious shake in my belief system but now I'm stable.

drich0150 said:
If you believe yourself to be above the medieval interpretations of scripture and doctrine based on punishment then graduate yourself into the doctrine of Choice. In that sin is not another word for guilt. Sin is choice. With that choice one (in his sin) must choose to spend eternity with God. Those who (in their sin) do not choose to spend an eternity with God will not be forced to do so.

Revelation 21:8 said:
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Forcefully putting someone in a lake of fire an brimstone doesn't seem like "choice". It is a punishment. Also the scripture says that those who do not believe are already judged. I can't see how someone can interpred the decision of a court (human or divine) as a "choice".

drich0150 said:
If you wish to discuss it further then at least point me in to the right post number. if not I will understand.

You may start here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7555813-2/#post57356036

drich0150 said:
I wish to read it as it is written. it says the wage of sin.. Not that we owe a wage of sin. This means for the sin we have committed we have EARNED Death. A Spiritual death. So if you were to read it as it was written Romans 6:23 does not say otherwise.

OK, then. It is a transaction, however you are looking it. We earn Death for our sin.

drich0150 said:
What did I say that lead you to believe this? Please take the time to explain.

Using the new terminology form above("earn"). 1 Corinthians 15:3 says that "Christ died for our sins". Therefore Christ earned what we have earned instead of us. What we have earned is "spiritual death", as you have already said. Define it, so we could check if Christ did actually earned it.

Upisoft · Apr 29, 2011

Ih8s8n said:
You make me have to think.

When was that time I didn't do that?

Night. (if, I'm not too late to say that )

Emmy · Apr 29, 2011

Dear Upisoft. As to your statement: Jesus paid for our sins, and we are still dying:" Jesus died that we might live, Jesus paid for all our sins and we now are reconciled to God. It is up to us now, we can follow Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, and Jesus will lead us back to God, where we came from. BUT we have to Repent, to change our selfish and unloving character INTO: Loving God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. Also: Love our neighbour, ( all we know and meet) as we love ourselves. We have to become men and women who have learned to love, as God wants us to love, selflessly and no conditions asked. We have time to do that, we have Jesus who will give us His Love and Joy to share with others, and the Holy Spirit to empower us with His Love. Jesus taught us to pray and receive help and guidance from God, and become ever more loving to God and to each other. God will see our efforts to love and God will approve and bless us. Then at the end of our earthly lives, Jesus will lead us back to God, were we came from. God also gave us free will to choose, we can follow Jesus, or go our own way into Outer Darkness, without the Love and Light of God. The Bible will tell you more in detail. I say this with love, Upisoft. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

drich0150 · Apr 29, 2011

Upisoft said:
The reason I'm here is that I have friends here. Do you think that is a bad reason? Also I have fun and interesting discussions. The reason I came here is that at the time there was that big and still existing debate Evolution vs. Creationism. So, I was visiting a physics forum site, as I generally have interests in this section of science. There were some Christians visiting this site and debating that science is fairy tales and that their view point is the truth. I was interested why and how people can have such ideas, so I came here at this site, where non-Christians are usually welcomed. (with: "After all this is a Christian forum." in your case)
At physical site people were quite rude most of the time and there were too little Christians there, so my questions and interest lead me here. During the time here I had some periods with serious shake in my belief system but now I'm stable.

Click to expand...

So you are saying you are here because you like the company and you believe it to be interesting and fun? Is this correct?

Forcefully putting someone in a lake of fire an brimstone doesn't seem like "choice".

Click to expand...

If you take a closer look at that verse it says: they shall have their part in the Lake of fire. This means that they elected to be put into the lake rather than spend an eternity with God.

It is a punishment.

Click to expand...

It is a punishment for those who look for punishment. The writer of revelations is looking to punish. It is a choice to all of those who want to see it as a choice. Both are true, both are correct ways of looking at Heaven and Hell. It al depends on the level of understanding you have and your perspective.

Also the scripture says that those who do not believe are already judged. I can't see how someone can interpreted the decision of a court (human or divine) as a "choice".

Click to expand...

It's real simple. Their verdict is based on their choices. just like any other trial. If a man chooses to take another man's life unlawfully, then his actions will be judged. Just like if a man chooses to not spend an eternity with God or in creation then, again His actions will be the judge of where he does spend eternity.

You may start here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7555813-2/#post57356036

Click to expand...

It seems Walter has a very good grasp of the subject matter and there is little if anything that I could add.

OK, then. It is a transaction, however you are looking it. We earn Death for our sin.

Click to expand...

A Spiritual Death, yes.

Using the new terminology form above("earn"). 1 Corinthians 15:3 says that "Christ died for our sins". Therefore Christ earned what we have earned instead of us.

Click to expand...

This is why He had to die on the Cross. This is why He was separated from the Father for the first time in eternity past.

What we have earned is "spiritual death", as you have already said.

Click to expand...

Spiritual Death is separation from the Father.

Define it, so we could check if Christ did actually earned it.

Click to expand...

Christ did not "earn it" as He was without sin. However He accepted our wages and paid all of our debts in full with His Death and burial. It is through the resurrection that we know that our Spiritual death is not binding and we also know through the resurrection that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that all He said and promised is true. (Eternial life, for those who believe)

razeontherock · Apr 29, 2011

Upisoft said:
OK. I don't know what spiritual death is, I have witnessed only physical death, so I'll use your definition.

So you say that instead of "For the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23 actually meant "For the wages of sin is [eternity experienced without communion with God's presence]." Is that correct?

Walter's response circa post #15 is accurate. Understanding the Spiritual nature of death is enough to clear up the question in your OP, as well as a lot else

razeontherock · Apr 29, 2011

Upisoft said:
What you suggest is that the wages for sin are different for Jesus and for us. I cannot accept that. God bending the rules for His son. That is not just.

You know Christ was sinless

Upisoft · Apr 30, 2011

Emmy said:
Dear Upisoft. As to your statement: Jesus paid for our sins, and we are still dying:" Jesus died that we might live, Jesus paid for all our sins and we now are reconciled to God. It is up to us now, we can follow Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, and Jesus will lead us back to God, where we came from. BUT we have to Repent, to change our selfish and unloving character INTO: Loving God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. Also: Love our neighbour, ( all we know and meet) as we love ourselves. We have to become men and women who have learned to love, as God wants us to love, selflessly and no conditions asked. We have time to do that, we have Jesus who will give us His Love and Joy to share with others, and the Holy Spirit to empower us with His Love. Jesus taught us to pray and receive help and guidance from God, and become ever more loving to God and to each other. God will see our efforts to love and God will approve and bless us. Then at the end of our earthly lives, Jesus will lead us back to God, were we came from. God also gave us free will to choose, we can follow Jesus, or go our own way into Outer Darkness, without the Love and Light of God. The Bible will tell you more in detail. I say this with love, Upisoft. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

Emmy, I'm discussing here specifically the aspect of sin. The benefits of belief are not questioned in this thread. I prefer we stay on topic, unless there is some connection between sin and eternal life in heaven.

For the moment the only logical explanation of this problem(for me) is what we have discussed with my friend Ih8s8n. That everyone will die and then be resurrected as the wages of sin is [permanent physical death]. That, of course, leaves the problem with Revelation 21:8 and the lake of fire and brimstone. I believe that caused Ih8ts8n to do some thinking and still having no answer. One possible answer is that the conditions listed there -- being fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderer, whoremonger, idolater and/or liar are not sins, but conditions separately punished with "second death" in a lake of fire. They could not be sin, in this interpretation, because Jesus already died for our sins.

I don't think that the 2nd explanation given by Walter Kovacs is logical. He said that Jesus have died from spiritual death, but then Jesus has died for finite sin (all man sin is finite as we are finite in number) and stayed separated from God (how that be with trinity??) for finite time -- 3 days. This is still finite punishment. However the rest of us that deserve this type of punishment will spent eternity -- infinite time, for their finite sins. This is infinite punishment. I don't think this is justice. Finite crime being punished with infinite sentence for everyone, except Jesus who is the son of the judge.

drich0150 said:
So you are saying you are here because you like the company and you believe it to be interesting and fun? Is this correct?

If you take a closer look at that verse it says: they shall have their part in the Lake of fire. This means that they elected to be put into the lake rather than spend an eternity with God.

It is a punishment for those who look for punishment. The writer of revelations is looking to punish. It is a choice to all of those who want to see it as a choice. Both are true, both are correct ways of looking at Heaven and Hell. It al depends on the level of understanding you have and your perspective.

It's real simple. Their verdict is based on their choices. just like any other trial. If a man chooses to take another man's life unlawfully, then his actions will be judged. Just like if a man chooses to not spend an eternity with God or in creation then, again His actions will be the judge of where he does spend eternity.

It seems Walter has a very good grasp of the subject matter and there is little if anything that I could add.

A Spiritual Death, yes.

This is why He had to die on the Cross. This is why He was separated from the Father for the first time in eternity past.

Spiritual Death is separation from the Father.

Christ did not "earn it" as He was without sin. However He accepted our wages and paid all of our debts in full with His Death and burial. It is through the resurrection that we know that our Spiritual death is not binding and we also know through the resurrection that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that all He said and promised is true. (Eternial life, for those who believe)

Yes it is correct. I enjoy the community here, that includes different people with different beliefs.

I find the translation of "apistos" in Revelation 21:8 -- "unbelieving" -- rather amusing. This is 3rd meaning and the first is "someone not to be trusted, unfaithful". The second is "incredible". God will put those not to be trusted in Heaven, but the unbelievers will go into the lake of fire. For me, this is just the wishful thinking of the translator. Also the verb used in the greek text is "kaiomene" which means "being burned", thus they are object of an action made by 2rd party. It was not their election to do so.

I had something to add to Walter's answer, read my answer to Emmy above.

You agreed with "This is why He had to die on the Cross" and then disagreed with "Christ did not "earn it" as He was without sin" over the same issue. Which one is it?
In Corinthians 15:3 the greek text uses "apethanen huper" with meaning natural death(or violent death) over something.
If the wages for sin is "death and burial" as you suggest, then we return to the original question. Why people have not stopped to die and being buried?

Ih8s8n · Apr 30, 2011

Upisoft said:
For the moment the only logical explanation of this problem(for me) is what we have discussed with my friend Ih8s8n. That everyone will die and then be resurrected as the wages of sin is [permanent physical death]. That, of course, leaves the problem with Revelation 21:8 and the lake of fire and brimstone. I believe that caused Ih8ts8n to do some thinking and still having no answer.

Upisoft: You're correct in that we're friends, but you misunderstood (I should have explained what I meant) what I meant when I said that you were making me think. Of course, as you should know by now, having communicated with me at two different forums for years, I always do my best to give you a thoughtful response. The other night, I was simply strapped for time and exceedingly tired and I simply didn't have the brain power to give you a lengthy response. That's all. Anyhow, I'll do my best to respond to your post in a little while. Until then...

razeontherock · Apr 30, 2011

Upisoft said:
Using the new terminology form above("earn"). 1 Corinthians 15:3 says that "Christ died for our sins". Therefore Christ earned what we have earned instead of us. What we have earned is "spiritual death", as you have already said. Define it, so we could check if Christ did actually earned it.

Classic case of cart-before-horse. Instead, check to see what Christ finished, so as to understand what spiritual death is better.

HISservant21 · May 1, 2011

Upisoft said:
But why?
1) Christ died for our sins.
2) We die for our sins.

We pay the wages for sin (which is death). Why Christ had to die for it too?

Edit: Doesn't that mean no one is believing in the right thing?

------
friend,

it all started from the beginning...

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." - Genesis 1:31

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." - Genesis 2:16-18

"And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat." - Genesis 3:11-13

disobedience is sin, is rebellion...

"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king." - 1 Samuel 15:23

so,
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." -1 Corinthians 15:22
"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." - Romans 5:14

all who die in Adam, are the entire human race (i.e., all humans died spiritually and are born spiritually dead, though born physically alive)... which is why The Lord JESUS CHRIST, "Mighty GOD" (Isaiah 9:6), Immanuel-GOD with us, is The LAMB slain from the foundation of the world (& made manifest approx 1978 years ago), to pay for the sins of all upon whom HE, the LORD GOD will show mercy according to HIS perfect will... thus, all upon whom The LORD has mercy will be made alive. Praise GOD!

humans die physically, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"-Hebrews 9:27... as a result of being dead physically, since the fall of man/adam. The death in view in Rom 6:23 is the second death, of the soul... "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." - Revelation 21:8 (compare to Ezekiel 18:4)

The Lord JESUS CHRIST, The LORD GOD, mercifully and graciously saves the soul (and gives a new spiritual body-1 Corinthians 15:50-52), through the hearing of the word - "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." - Romans 10:17

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." - John 10:27-30

May The LORD bless you all.

Upisoft · May 1, 2011

HISservant21 said:
------
friend,

it all started from the beginning...

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." - Genesis 1:31

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." - Genesis 2:16-18

"And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat." - Genesis 3:11-13

disobedience is sin, is rebellion...

"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king." - 1 Samuel 15:23

so,
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." -1 Corinthians 15:22
"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." - Romans 5:14

all who die in Adam, are the entire human race (i.e., all humans died spiritually and are born spiritually dead, though born physically alive)...

Hello,

If that is so, then Jesus, who is a man, was also born spiritually dead. So, from here we can conclude He could not possibly die from spiritual death. Thus the only death He experienced was physical one. If that is true, then the wages of sin is physical death. Therefore if Jesus have died for our sins I expect to see people stop dying from physical death.

HISservant21 said:
which is why The Lord JESUS CHRIST, "Mighty GOD" (Isaiah 9:6), Immanuel-GOD with us, is The LAMB slain from the foundation of the world (& made manifest approx 1978 years ago), to pay for the sins of all upon whom HE, the LORD GOD will show mercy according to HIS perfect will... thus, all upon whom The LORD has mercy will be made alive. Praise GOD!

I stopped counting how many times I've said I'm not interested of discussion of the benefits (eternal life) until it is not clear to me what exactly are the wages for sin and why do we still pay them, if Jesus is supposed to have died taking the sin on Himself.

HISservant21 said:
humans die physically, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"-Hebrews 9:27... as a result of being dead physically, since the fall of man/adam.

Wait. You said above that we are born spiritually dead and now you say that we are also physically dead?! So, what is the life we're living if it is nether spiritual nor physical?

HISservant21 said:
The death in view in Rom 6:23 is the second death, of the soul... "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." - Revelation 21:8 (compare to Ezekiel 18:4)

The Lord JESUS CHRIST, The LORD GOD, mercifully and graciously saves the soul (and gives a new spiritual body-1 Corinthians 15:50-52), through the hearing of the word - "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." - Romans 10:17

OK, take two. Now the wages of sin is soul death. So, you claim Jesus has died from soul death for our sins. Can you support that?
That started to be confusing. There are already 3 types of death -- physical, spiritual and soul. Can you define what is each one of them and also tell what is the cause of each one. Apparently you have different ideas from others, so I prefer that you gave the definitions. Otherwise I may misunderstand you.

HISservant21 said:
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." - John 10:27-30

May The LORD bless you all.

Well, "I and my Father are one" is one thing more against the Walter's explanation that Jesus have died from spiritual death and was not one with his Father for 3 days.

Emmy · May 1, 2011

Dear Upisoft. To accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour simply means that we thank Him for dying for us, for paying God`s Holy Law, which no-one ( no man or woman) could have paid for. Jesus became our Saviour and Jesus reconciled us to God. We are free now to change our selfish and unloving character INTO: loving God and loving our neighbour, and following Jesus back to God, where we came from. You could look upon it: Jesus paid the prize and we are His now, to follow back to God our Heavenly Father. We all will die some day, and leave our earthly bodies behind. But those of us who have chosen to accept Jesus as our Saviour, will follow Jesus back to where we came from. And the bodies we have will be our inner man, our soul. The Bible will explain it more in detail, in case you want to know more. I say this with love, Upisoft. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

HISservant21 · May 1, 2011

Upisoft said:
Hello,

If that is so, then Jesus, who is a man, was also born spiritually dead. So, from here we can conclude He could not possibly die from spiritual death. Thus the only death He experienced was physical one. If that is true, then the wages of sin is physical death. Therefore if Jesus have died for our sins I expect to see people stop dying from physical death.

Hi,

The Lord JESUS CHRIST certainly came in the flesh:
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." - John 1:14

but, and... The Lord JESUS CHRIST never ceased/ceases to be eternal GOD, The SON of The Living GOD
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1:1
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." -Colossians 2:8-10
"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;" - Colossians 1:18-20
"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." -Hebrews 1:8 (That is, The Holy FATHER saying to the SON)

there are at least two other parts of holy scripture we can compare that speak of the divinity of The Lord JESUS CHRIST
"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." - Revelation 1:7-8
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." - Isaiah 9:6

I stopped counting how many times I've said I'm not interested of discussion of the benefits (eternal life) until it is not clear to me what exactly are the wages for sin and why do we still pay them, if Jesus is supposed to have died taking the sin on Himself.

The wages of sin is the death of the soul, what precisely that entails, only The LORD GOD knows, but it ends with the total and final destruction of the soul forever. (Rom 6:23). Remember, The LORD is merciful...
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." - John 3:16

Wait. You said above that we are born spiritually dead and now you say that we are also physically dead?! So, what is the life we're living if it is nether spiritual nor physical?
you misunderstand me... all human beings are born spiritually dead (except those whom GOD saves/saved in the womb)... like Jeremiah (Jeremiah 1:5) & John the baptist (Luke 1:15)... but physically alive, but die eventually as a result of the curse/fall of man from adam. The Lord JESUS CHRIST gives eternal life to many upon whom HE, The LORD GOD have mercy on:

"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." - John 17:1-3

OK, take two. Now the wages of sin is soul death. So, you claim Jesus has died from soul death for our sins. Can you support that?
That started to be confusing. There are already 3 types of death -- physical, spiritual and soul. Can you define what is each one of them and also tell what is the cause of each one. Apparently you have different ideas from others, so I prefer that you gave the definitions. Otherwise I may misunderstand you.

There are two types of death, according to the Bible, death of the physical body and death of the soul under GOD's righteous wrath for sin (Ezekiel 18:4)
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

Remember...
"The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy." - Psalm 145:8

oi_antz · May 1, 2011

Hi Upisoft, I remember your smiley child photo, he looks so joyful

Upisoft said:
But why?
1) Christ died for our sins.
2) We die for our sins.

We pay the wages for sin (which is death). Why Christ had to die for it too?

Edit: Doesn't that mean no one is believing in the right thing?

This is fulfilled at the end of Satan's time on earth. See Revelation 20 and 21:

The Judgment of the Dead

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

First thing I notice is that those who are dead are brought back to life, regardless if they belong to Jesus or not, every person who has died is brought back to life. I find it interesting here that those whose names are in the lamb's book of life do not endure the second death, therefore they don't die for eternity. Those whose names are not written in the lamb's book of life actually do go to the lake of fire which is the second death. What I make from this is that when it is said "shall not perish but will have eternal life", it is talking about the second death where the wheat is harvested into the barn and the chaff is burnt to dust.

But what about mortal death, since that is the issue that concerns us so much about the life we have? I think as long as sin is there then death will be there, but there is a prophecy that will ensure that after all this war is over and the serpent and sinners are put away, there will be no more death. Read it for yourself:

A New Heaven and a New Earth

1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, Look! Gods dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.
5 He who was seated on the throne said, I am making everything new! Then he said, Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.

6 He said to me: It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

First thing to notice here is that Jesus is the beginning and the end, all in between was His whole plan to grow a crop of loving souls, the ones who would overcome their own self in order to truly worship and adore The LORD. Those who were too selfish are too evil to be kept, they are burnt like the story of the wheat and chaff that John the baptist told. Also note that Jesus shows specifically the types of people who are not fit for eternal life:

8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarsthey will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Click to expand...

This is all consistent with Jesus' instructions to His disciples:

21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.
22 Judas (not Judas Iscariot, but the other disciple with that name) said to him, Lord, why are you going to reveal yourself only to us and not to the world at large?
23 Jesus replied, All who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them. 24 Anyone who doesnt love me will not obey me. And remember, my words are not my own. What I am telling you is from the Father who sent me.

So we can see that even those who have never heard the gospel are either going to be sheep (those who listen and obey Jesus) or goats (those who would rather serve themselves). Believing is a hurdle you must overcome if you want to tast of eternal life before the day of judgment, and you should treat it as such. Instead of having the attitude "why should I jump this hurdle", you should have the attitude "why should I let this hurdle stop me".

I hope this helps Upisoft, you left quite a good impression on my memory the last time we conversed

Accepting Jesus as your lord and savior.

I will fear no evil for You are with me

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