Accepting Jesus as your lord and savior.

[Upisoft]

In another thread I was told that I have to accept Jesus as my Lord and savior.
The guy was making clear what he was saying by "to accept Jesus". As I pointed out I accept Jesus as a character from a book.

Then I asked why should I accept him as my lord and savior?

As far as I know the Bible says that:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

So, the wages for sin is death, Jesus died to pay the wages, but people definitely are still dying. So, according to the scripture, we still continue to pay for our sins.

I got no answers, so I moved this question here.

 

[Hentenza]

In another thread I was told that I have to accept Jesus as my Lord and savior.
The guy was making clear what he was saying by "to accept Jesus". As I pointed out I accept Jesus as a character from a book.

Then I asked why should I accept him as my lord and savior?

As far as I know the Bible says that:


So, the wages for sin is death, Jesus died to pay the wages, but people definitely are still dying. So, according to the scripture, we still continue to pay for our sins.

I got no answers, so I moved this question here.

Well, everyone suffers physical death but only those that believe in Christ will not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Upisoft]

Well, everyone suffers physical death but only those that believe in Christ will not perish but have eternal life.

But why?
1) Christ died for our sins.
2) We die for our sins.

We pay the wages for sin (which is death). Why Christ had to die for it too?

Edit: Doesn't that mean no one is believing in the right thing?

 

[Hentenza]

What about people who have never learnt of Christianity?

Birthew,

Only Christians can answer in this forum. Please start your own thread and I will be happy to answer your question. Thanks.

BTW- Welcome to CF.

 

[Hentenza]

But why?
1) Christ died for our sins.
2) We die for our sins.

We pay the wages for sin (which is death). Why Christ had to die for it too?

Edit: Doesn't that mean no one is believing in the right thing?

But we don't pay them Upisoft. Those that die without the atonement of Christ are not saved. Christ died so that we could be saved. In other words, without Christ ALL would perish but because of Christ all that believe in Him can be saved. Does that makes sense?

 

[Upisoft]

But we don't pay them Upisoft. Those that die without the atonement of Christ are not saved. Christ died so that we could be saved. In other words, without Christ ALL would perish but because of Christ all that believe in Him can be saved. Does that makes sense?

Do you have any confirmation from the Bible? I mean something that specifies that simply death is not wages of our sins, but it necessarily must be death with the atonement of Christ. And I'm not asking for the benefits (i.e. eternal life), I'm asking only for the payment for our sins.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

Then I asked why should I accept him as my lord and savior?

Fun fact: nowhere in Scripture does it say we need to 'accept Jesus as our personal saviour.'

So, the wages for sin is death, Jesus died to pay the wages, but people definitely are still dying. So, according to the scripture, we still continue to pay for our sins.

The wages of sin is spiritual death, which equals eternity experienced without communion with God's presence. Of course we still die.

 

[Hentenza]

Sure.

John 3
16"For God so (W)loved the world, that He (X)gave His (Y)only begotten Son, that whoever (Z)believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17"For God (AA)did not send the Son into the world (AB)to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18"(AC)He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of (AD)the only begotten Son of God.



Notice that all that believe in the Son will not perish. The Greek word used here is apollumi (transliterated0 and means utterly destroyed. The object of that destruction is hell. Notice also that those that believe in the Son will not be judged but those that do not believe are.



The following verse talks about their deeds from darkness which is sin.



19"This is the judgment, that (AE)the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for (AF)their deeds were evil.



So now we can look at the wages of sin are being "apollumi" and contrast it with the eternal 'life" for those that are not judged for their sins.

 

[Upisoft]

Fun fact: nowhere in Scripture does it say we need to 'accept Jesus as our personal saviour.'

OK, so that guy who told me so in Ethics&Morality subforum was mistaken. Anyway, my question is not invalidated by this. It was just observation of an obstacle for me to believe.

The wages of sin is spiritual death, which equals eternity experienced without communion with God's presence. Of course we still die.

OK. I don't know what spiritual death is, I have witnessed only physical death, so I'll use your definition.

So you say that instead of "For the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23 actually meant "For the wages of sin is [eternity experienced without communion with God's presence]." Is that correct?

 

[Walter Kovacs]

So you say that instead of "For the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23 actually meant "For the wages of sin is [eternity experienced without communion with God's presence]." Is that correct?

Well, that's part of it. Allow me to expand my statement: without Christ, I am sppirituall dead. The Scriptures attest to this. Dead in my sins. If I remain without the healing of salvation as provided by Christ, I will die, physically and spiritually. When taken in context, Paul is referring to spiritual death. I don't think he cared one iota about physical death.

*edit*

 

[Upisoft]

Sure.

John 3
16"For God so (W)loved the world, that He (X)gave His (Y)only begotten Son, that whoever (Z)believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

That is exactly my point. I expect that whoever believes in Jesus will not perish and live forever. And that is not happening, because:
1)the Bible is not true
2)it is true, but no one believes in Jesus(but in something different)

It would be obvious if the believers stopped dying.

17"For God (AA)did not send the Son into the world (AB)to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18"(AC)He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of (AD)the only begotten Son of God.

Notice that all that believe in the Son will not perish. The Greek word used here is apollumi (transliterated0 and means utterly destroyed. The object of that destruction is hell. Notice also that those that believe in the Son will not be judged but those that do not believe are.

This also doesn't say that whoever believed should die. It is talking about judgement and as you have mentioned destruction of non-believers.

The following verse talks about their deeds from darkness which is sin.

19"This is the judgment, that (AE)the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for (AF)their deeds were evil.


So now we can look at the wages of sin are being "apollumi" and contrast it with the eternal 'life" for those that are not judged for their sins.

OK. I've got another definition of "death". However I can't see that one justifies, as the word used in Romans 6:23 is "Thanatos", not "apollumi". It is a personification rather than description. Like we call "Death" the personification with the scythe.

 

[Upisoft]

Well, that's part of it. Allow me to expand my statement: without Christ, I am sppirituall dead. The Scriptures attest to this. Dead in my sins. If I remain without the healing of salvation as provided by Christ, I will die, physically and spiritually. When taken in context, Paul is referring to spiritual death. I don't think he cared one iota about physical death.

*edit*

So, do you think that Jesus actually died from spiritual death for our sins? That he will experience eternity without communion with God's presence?

 

[Walter Kovacs]

So, do you think that Jesus actually died from spiritual death for our sins? That he will experience eternity without communion with God's presence?

He spent 3 days without communion with God. Hence the 'my God, my god, why have you forsaken me' (paraphrased) from the cross. It was a both physical and spiritual death. But it was the resurrection that conquered death and opened up communion with God's divinity to us.

 

[Upisoft]

He spent 3 days without communion with God. Hence the 'my God, my god, why have you forsaken me' (paraphrased) from the cross. It was a both physical and spiritual death. But it was the resurrection that conquered death and opened up communion with God's divinity to us.

So, actually spiritual death is not required to be eternity, as Jesus spent only 3 days. So, your definition was incorrect.
Is it correct to say that spiritual death is: "3 days experienced without communion with God's presence"?

 

[Walter Kovacs]

So, actually spiritual death is not required to be eternity, as Jesus spent only 3 days. So, your definition was incorrect.

Jesus was God, and could raise himself up, just like He said. Most folks can't pull that off.

Is it correct to say that spiritual death is: "3 days experienced without communion with God's presence

In Jesus's case, sure. For everyone else, nah.

 

[Upisoft]

Jesus was God, and could raise himself up, just like He said. Most folks can't pull that off.

In Jesus's case, sure. For everyone else, nah.

What you suggest is that the wages for sin are different for Jesus and for us. I cannot accept that. God bending the rules for His son. That is not just.

Jesus has not experienced eternity without communion with God's presence. If your definition of "spiritual death" stays as you have originally expressed it, that means Jesus have not experienced spiritual death. That means he paid for our sins with his physical death. Therefore we should be able to do so.

 

[Hentenza]

That is exactly my point. I expect that whoever believes in Jesus will not perish and live forever. And that is not happening, because:
1)the Bible is not true
2)it is true, but no one believes in Jesus(but in something different)

It would be obvious if the believers stopped dying.

This is happening as we speak. We are not talking about physical death here but about spiritual death.

This also doesn't say that whoever believed should die. It is talking about judgement and as you have mentioned destruction of non-believers.

Destruction is death. Here is a verse regarding all being appointed to death.

Hebrews 9
27And inasmuch as (CA)it is appointed for men to die once and after this (CB)comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been (CC)offered once to (CD)bear the sins of many, will appear (CE)a second time for (CF)salvation (CG)without reference to sin, to those who (CH)eagerly await Him.

OK. I've got another definition of "death". However I can't see that one justifies, as the word used in Romans 6:23 is "Thanatos", not "apollumi". It is a personification rather than description. Like we call "Death" the personification with the scythe.

I'm sorry I was using the word for perishing. Yes, Thanatos can apply to both physical and/or spiritual death.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

Jesus has not experienced eternity without communion with God's presence. If your definition of "spiritual death" stays as you have originally expressed it, that means Jesus have not experienced spiritual death. That means he paid for our sins with his physical death. Therefore we should be able to do so.

He experienced it to a degree we will never know, because He experienced it to it's uttermost horrible extent. All the sin of the world, wrath of God followed by utter abandonment and forsaking by God were experienced by Jesus, a guy who never even sinned. Jesus (God) said 'Destroy this temple and I'll raise it in three days." That was His claim. He died the most utter spiritual death possible, then raised Himself again after three days, thus proving He was God and allowing us to partake of His nature. By His death (spiritual/physical) and resurrection, He conquered death. That's the story. If that's not 'just' to you, well, sorry. You don't have to believe it. But that's the data presented in Christianity. Take it or leave it. I can't argue you into taking it as true. If you can't accept it, well, okay.

 

[Ih8s8n]

In another thread I was told that I have to accept Jesus as my Lord and savior.
The guy was making clear what he was saying by "to accept Jesus". As I pointed out I accept Jesus as a character from a book.

Then I asked why should I accept him as my lord and savior?

As far as I know the Bible says that:

Originally Posted by Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 15:3

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
​

So, the wages for sin is death, Jesus died to pay the wages, but people definitely are still dying. So, according to the scripture, we still continue to pay for our sins.

I got no answers, so I moved this question here.

Upisoft: Hello, my old friend. I hope that your wife and children are well.

I'm sorry, but what you're doing is pulling verses out of their complete context. For example, in regards to physical death, in Romans, we also read:

"And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Romans 8:10-11)

Aside from the righteous saints who are alive at Christ's coming, everyone, whether Christian or not, will still experience physical death. As we just read, "the body is dead because of sin". In other words, Christ's atonement doesn't remove the aspect of physical death, but, rather, through His atonement, He indwells His followers with the same Spirit that raised Him from the dead. Such an indwelling, which is referred to as "the earnest of the Spirit" or "the downpayment of the Spirit", is a sign to God's people that the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead will also one day quicken their mortal bodies in the resurrection that is to come. Basically, what you've done is to ignore all of the verses that surround the two that you quoted that also speak of the necessity of Christ rising from the dead to defeat death for us. Once again, this "defeat" does not mean that physical death will not come upon Christ's followers, but rather that it has no permanent hold on them. I hope that you understand the difference between the two (not meant in a condescending way...just my sincere hope for you).

Take care.

 

[Upisoft]

This is happening as we speak. We are not talking about physical death here but about spiritual death.




Destruction is death. Here is a verse regarding all being appointed to death.

Hebrews 9
27And inasmuch as (CA)it is appointed for men to die once and after this (CB)comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been (CC)offered once to (CD)bear the sins of many, will appear (CE)a second time for (CF)salvation (CG)without reference to sin, to those who (CH)eagerly await Him.

Yes, destruction is death, but death is not necessarily destruction. So if the wages of sin is death, how this imply it also means destruction?

The quote says we die once. It also speaks about salvation, but I don't see 2nd spiritual death mentioned.