accepting God

[honeysuckledreams]

hey everyone, dunnos if this is the right area to post this but if it needs to be moved okay

Also i truly don't mean to offend anyone by any of this, i am jsut trying o be honest so that way i can understand this all a bit better, rather than trying to see the image from behind a foggy curtain

So here's a little of my background...

I did not grow up religious, I think i was taken to church once when i was around 4-5 by my babysitter, and I guess it was one of the smaller denominations (don't remember what it was called) but the experience left me with nightmares and I never cared to go back since. My father was raised Christian but also was more of the philosophical hippie type, my step-mother was raised Catholic but got into metaphysical things (she had statues of Jesus, and angels, and mother mary, as well as Buddha, Ganesh, Kuan yin, etc...) so i grew up in a fairly "open-minded" household. I don't say open-minded to be offensive to any one on here, just open minded in the sense that they were open to different beliefs and faiths and stuff like that. I grew up having a strange set of beliefs, i called what i guess would be considered God "the universe, or spirit", and felt like i connected with that "universe, spirit" when i was out in nature or did divination-type stuff. I grew up having fairly pagan beliefs in that i felt nature was a living creature and animals have a sense of self, even if non-understandable from human perspective. I didn't really pray to any particular thing just "spirit" and it was less like prayer and more like letting its peace inside me and communing with it. I was taught that everyone was entitled to their own beliefs and that it is okay, everyone needs their own truth to make sense of the world, and i was in no position to judge another for their beliefs, cause the only one that really mattered to me was my own.

Anywhoooo

so I met my "boyfriend" in 2007. I didn't really realize that he was religious till a few a months into the relationship, and by then I was already completely hooked on him and was living with him. And then it came out that he was the son of a pentecostal preacher, and even if he didn't express his beliefs to the general public, they were definitely residing inside him. I was perfectly fine with this, in fact i was happy that he believed in something outside of himself and had faith in a higher "being". However, this sentiment was not reciprocated, which i understand because my way of believing goes directly against his in his world. So that became a big rift between us that wasn't spoken often about. Basically, I could not put myself in his shoes as hard as i tried, and he definitely could not see from my perspective either.

In the 6 years that i lived with him i only met his dad twice, he didn't really want to take me around his family because they were super religious and he knew that i would not be accepted, and so he was also hesitant about the future of "us" unless i converted, though he did not want to let me go either. I felt like i was being hidden and not ever good enough, but i loved him and i stayed, until he told me that he didn't know if he marry me (which i wanted so that way at least he could tell his dad we lived together) because he didn't want to get divorced and he knew that would have to happen eventually unless i converted. I then started thinking about how i don't think i could let my future children be brought up in a religious atmosphere, especially one i didn't believe in. and i didn't want to confuse them by being taught one thing and me saying another. and i didnt want to go to a church that i didn't believe in because i felt it was unfair to those who actually believed.

anywho,

so April 2013 we finally separated, at the worst time for him possible, when his father got put on suicide watch... I don't know if i can ever forgive myself for leaving him at that time, but i had been trying to leave for months before that (i felt like a ghost in a shell)... We separated and didn't speak to each other till about February of this year and have started seeing each other again. However, religion has started to come to the forefront again... and he is afraid of us becoming what we were... and i know that i have to make a commitment to his religion in order for us to be together.

so this is where i am now. I got recommended to her by someone from another forum, and i guess im jsut searching for some insight.

Its not that i don't believe in God, but I have a hard time accepting the biblical image of God. The more i think about it, i think im just scared of the commitment of choosing ONE (version, how i have usually seen it) God. I am going to try to read the Bible and see if i can somehow find where the beliefs are similar and try to see how i can merge my beliefs into the stuff that's in the bible. i'm just at a point where i'm kind of stuck though... I want to remain true to myself, i don't want to convert just for him, if i do i truly want to believe with all my heart, but i get scared i guess or stubborn or defiant or whatever... i have a hard time following what other people tell me to do, so its hard for me to follow what someone tells me to believe. I have thought about changing my label "spirit, universe" to God in my mind and maybe that will help... i truly admire a lot of Christians, and i know that i can't judge the religion/faith on a few Christians that might have become "corrupted" in my eyes, because that happens with just about nearly everything.

I just feel it is really important to be as honest as i possibly can. I love this man and i know that I would like to marry him and have his children, but this part if the prerequisite. he doesn't approve of my divination with tarot either because he says evil spirits live in the deck, so i have a question for any Pentecostals.... would an Oracle deck be okay? Like an angel oracle deck or something? I am willing to make the compromise on it, but i have to admit i do find a lot of guidance from my cards and i don't know if i can give them up, but i am willing to find an alternate version of them...


i don't know, i am very confused, and i am trying to get past all the barriers and biases built up in my mind and look at Christianity with an unbiased perspective so that i can be an empty cup waiting to be filled, but it is hard for me...


so i wondered if anyone had any advice maybe? or if this doesn't make any sense let me know please...

thank you all for reading my stream of thoughts which i am sure will turn out ridiculously long

 

[paul1149]

Hi HS,
Going to be honest here. I don't think B/f gave you a very good image of following Christ. If he wasn't willing to marry you he shouldn't have lived with you. The Bible is clear that sex should be only in the context of covenant relationship, because it involves spiritual union, and for the sake of the children.

If I were you I would consider the implications of that with regard to the nature of your relationship with him. A Christian would put the Lord first before any potential spouse. And in being true to the Lord, he would prove to have the character to be true to the spouse he finally chooses. Be careful.

The other thing is that Christianity isn't a religion you join in order to make familial peace or to open doors. Christianity is coming to faith that Jesus is the Son of God who died to take away our sin and reconcile us to the Father. It's not a mere religious form, it's handing over our very life to One we trust even more than ourselves. I would suggest you read the Gospels and maybe the book of Romans to get to know Jesus for yourself. Look for some sermons on youtube on subjects that interest you. Then you can come to your own conclusions without the distortions you have seen from others who claim to represent Him.

 

[honeysuckledreams]

I've already thrown that first part back at him haha. I told him i didn't think God would approve of smoking, drinking, living in "sin", and gambling and stuff like that. His reply was "Jesus died for our sins, everyone is a sinner, and even if you commit sins as long as you seek forgiveness in Christ, you will be forgiven"... too which i felt that it was unfair for someone to follow all of the "commandments" and not "sin" and lead a good life and be a good person, but are condemned for hell because they were not aware of the concept of Christ. that's when all this stuff starts making no sense to me.

He is definitely facing internal conflicts with wanting to be the person he dreams of being, holding true to his father's example, but also being the person in the life that he lives. He is constantly afraid of going to hell, he would also freak out at 11:34 on the digital clocks because upside down it spells hell. I told him that as long as he was a good person and tried his hardest to lead a good life, God will forgive him, but then he told me how could i say that since i was already on my way to hell. *shrug*
He suffers a lot from the guilt, like he had gotten a DUI one night, and apparently if you have a DUI you aren't allowed to go into Canada for like 7 years or so unless someone from Canada rights a letter on your behalf, well his grandpa was about to die and he wanted to go to see him but he couldn't, and he refused to tell his mother (who lives in Canada) the reason why because he didn't want to disappoint his family... and so he missed out on the chance to say goodbye to his grandfather. he also believes that when someone dies that their soul goes to heaven and once you are in heaven (or hell) you no longer care about the people on Earth because you have already found salvation, and so he couldn't even let himself say goodbye to his grandfather after he passed.. he carried that guilt with him for years, but never shared it with me... so he was extremely depressed and I never realized why... and that breaks my heart...

And I agree.. that's why i finally consented to trying to read the Bible, I am unsure about sermons yet... but i would rather come to my own conclusions first and see how i feel about them, and then maybe progress further from there. I truly want to change from the inside, and maybe I already know God but I dont know how to accept him...

I am trying though, i want him to be able to live a life without all this secrecy, because i know it is very hard on him and i dont want him to have to keep enduring his internal hardships. he has gotten better through helping his father out of his depression and has started going to church again, and i want to support him as best as i can, but i also want to do it truly without questioning it in my own mind, which i often do.

thank you for your response

 

[bling]

You might try an Alpha Group meeting in your area. They are not part of any particular Christian group.
http://guest.alphausa.org/

 

[paul1149]

Hey HS,

That's awesome. You really have a true heart for him and it comes through. I want you to know that I didn’t say my things in judgment of him, but only to point out the reality of the situation, because many times people are not clear on that, and so that is the starting point. I wish him the very best. He does sound quite conflicted.

Let's look at the sex another way. If he knows it's wrong, then for you to engage in it would contribute to him hurting his own conscience. It would increase his confusion, fear, depression, need for substances, etc. Anyone who loves God does not want to practice sin because it obscures the reality of God in our life, so this is a big deal. It's pretty ironic that the non-Christian should be the one taking a stand on morality in a relationship, but I guess you have to play the ball where it lays.

His biggest need is to get reconciled to God. That doesn’t necessarily mean being in church all the time or doing external religious things, it involves a heart totally in love with Jesus and a life sold out to Him. The details work themselves out from that foundation.

Sometimes that is particularly hard for a pastor's kid. If they grew up in a structured, protected environment they may have a need to test things out for themselves, to make sure that they really own it. If this is what's going on, it would be good for you to understand it and, in love for him, to support him learning what he needs to know. Anything else would be building on a very unsure foundation.

I'm very glad you will try reading the Bible. Please do it prayerfully, as in, simply: Lord, I want to learn more about you for myself. I am open to what You want to show me. The Holy Spirit will then show you what you need to see. The Gospel of Mark is a quick, wonderful read. John is an in-depth personal look at Jesus. Matthew and Luke add a lot of details from differing perspectives. Luke 15 is one of my favorite chapters. If you want a survey of the principles of Christianity, Romans is probably best. Do a search on "Romans road" for the outline.

Your sincerity about real heart change also comes through. God promises:

For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for your welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you.
You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.
I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore your fortunes.. -Jer 29:11-14​

About those people who never had a chance to learn of Christ. The dominant culture has done an effective job painting Christianity as a harsh judgmental religion. Sadly, sometimes misguided Christians have helped them. That is why it is critical to find out what the Bible really says. You will find many verses in the New Testament that teach the principle that where there is no knowledge of the law, sin is not imputed. Here are some verses I have found to that effect:

Acts 17:30
1John 2:2
John 15:22
John 15:24
Rom 2:14
Rom 2:26-27
Rom 3:25
Rom 4:11
Rom 4:15
Rom 5:13
Rom 11:28
John 9:41
Luke 12:47-48

It ultimately comes down to trust. Can man trust the magnificent all-knowing God who made him? Especially considering He came in love and gave His life to bring us back to Himself? Or does it make sense for man to take the moral sense God placed in him and turn around and judge even God? As Abraham said, the judge of the whole world will do what is right. The more we trust Him, the more secure we become in His love. And the more we understand His word, the more we see that we can indeed trust Him.

Blessings.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I've already thrown that first part back at him haha. I told him i didn't think God would approve of smoking, drinking, living in "sin", and gambling and stuff like that. His reply was "Jesus died for our sins, everyone is a sinner, and even if you commit sins as long as you seek forgiveness in Christ, you will be forgiven"... too which i felt that it was unfair for someone to follow all of the "commandments" and not "sin" and lead a good life and be a good person, but are condemned for hell because they were not aware of the concept of Christ. that's when all this stuff starts making no sense to me.

My response here is two-fold:

1) While a lot of "conservative" Christians, specifically in the US, have a history of opposing certain things as "worldly" and "sinful" (smoking, drinking, gambling) this isn't representative of Christianity historically or on a larger scale. Sin isn't something that is frowned upon culturally, particularly something frowned upon by post-Victorian era culture.

Drinking isn't sinful, in fact Scripture presents alcohol as a good thing. In the Old Testament God instructs the Israelites to come together every year and bring with them food, animals, wine, and what is translated as "strong drink" (literally "intoxicating drink", a reference to, basically, a kind of strong alcohol made from barley). Wine is portrayed as a something to be celebrated and used for celebration. Jesus, Himself, turns water into wine as His first miracle in John's Gospel, and at the Last Supper Jesus takes a cup of wine, blesses it, and says, "This is My blood of the new covenant poured out for many, drink this in remembrance of Me." Which is why, as Christians, we gather on Sunday to receive the bread and wine of Christ's Supper. Since the late 19th century, with the advent of pasteurization and in the early 20th century with the invention of refrigeration it was possible to preserve grape juice without it fermenting into wine, and as such some churches have chosen instead to use grape juice instead of wine for Communion, but this is a very, very, very modern development.

Now that doesn't mean there isn't some issue with getting hammered every weekend. Wisdom would dictate that too much of a good thing can be bad. So while alcohol and the drinking of alcohol isn't bad, but a celebrated thing, common sense tells us that it is best to do so in moderation. Not to get behind the wheel when under the influence, and that alcoholism is a very real issue that people have to struggle with and overcome. And the Bible reflects this by giving warning to the dangers of alcohol, or more specifically alcohol abuse.

What of smoking? This is one of those interesting things about puritanical, moralistic religion--sometimes well meaning people feel it's important to condemn something as immoral and sinful even when there is no biblical reason to do so. Now smoking isn't healthy, and as a smoker I'm aware of the dangers tobacco smoking has on my body. But unhealthy doesn't mean sinful. Otherwise we should also condemn hotdogs and cheesecake. So while smoking may be a disgusting habit, and again, I'm a smoker and I know it's gross, but there's nothing "sinful" about it. One cannot find any place where God has commanded, "Thou shalt not smoke"; and making up new moralistic rules to follow to feel "holy" is what we would call "moralism", and it's a dangerous thing that Christians should always avoid because moralism inevitably leads to legalism, and thus gives man either a false sense of pride, or else he falls into despair. Which is why as a Lutheran I make a big deal about knowing the difference between Law and Gospel.

The same thing with gambling.

Now there's the other side, the other side of your boyfriend's attitude. Which is effectively this: "I shall go on sinning since grace shall abound." Which is utterly and completely condemned by St. Paul in his letter to the Romans, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" To say, "I shall go on sinning, because I am forgiven," is to show that one is faithless, that one does not, in fact, believe and trust in God's mercy and forgiveness, but is instead bragging about their own infidelity. There is forgiveness that covers all sin, and all means all. God's mercies are uncountable, the depths of His kindness unfathomable, His grace incomprehensibly abounding in all things; but Jesus gives us a very important parable (allow me to paraphrase):

There was once an upright, outstanding member of the community, a Pharisee, a teacher of religion who went to the Temple to pray one day. At the Temple he turned his head up toward heaven, declaring loudly, "God! I thank you that I am a good and upright man, a person of authority, and that I am not like the rest of these sinners around here--and especially not like that good-for-nothing tax collector over there." On that same day, a tax collector, a man tasked by the Roman government to collect tribute from the conquered Jews of Judea, a Jew himself, and thus regarded as a betrayer of his people and nation, came to the Temple to pray. He could not even turn his eyes upward to heaven, but could only keep his head lowered, clenching his fist and pressing it upon his chest could only silently grown in sorrow over all his sin, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner."

Jesus tells us only one of those men walked away justified--righteous before God--that day. And it wasn't the Pharisee.

I plan on coming back to this thread, but I wanted to make these points, because I feel they are rather important ones to make.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ForJesusChrist]

Welcome HoneySuckle,

I'm really tired so I read the rest of your post later, but I wanted to say with your old boyfriend, it is strange that his dad was a preacher and his family was religious, yet they would not accept you. Christians should accept all and not judge.

 

[honeysuckledreams]

thank you all for your thoughtful responses, it is very much appreciated

I have to admit some things said did make me want to raise my defense and im trying to overcome that a bit, so thank you for being patient with me...

From my understanding, there are different types of Christians, and some may take the Bible more literally than others, and some have stricter rules than others. I personally don't feel that the act of drinking and smoking is "sinful" but I can see where some might believe we are desecrating the shell that houses our soul, and so it is a not so great thing where God is concerned... I don't necessarily believe that but I feel that may be some peoples take on it. And I think that might be the upbringing that my boyfriend grew up with (no one in his family drinks or smokes- well, except for the younger generation ) and so I think he feels the weight and stigma of it from that.

I also had hoped the Christian family, what I thought was about acceptance and forgiveness and love, would accept me into their circle and accept that I believed differently and be okay with it... But again, different strokes for different folks I guess. I honestly never really had the chance to meet them though, my boyfriend never took me around them, I think apart of him was ashamed about his lifestyle and I think I might have gotten included in that a bit.

It seems as if it is easy to preach love and acceptance and forgiveness, but I wish I could see the action bit of it more... I think of Jesus as holding hands with all those of all colors and shapes and forms and beliefs, and love and faith are the unifying factors... but I guess that might be a bit too idealistic of a viewpoint for me to take but i like it anyway haha

I also picked up a Bible over the weekend. I tried starting off with the gospel of Matthew but I got confused by some of the things said. Like where Jesus mentions one should pray to God only in secret, and that a man should cut off his right hand before touching himself... down there... i don't know if i was reading it right but I think I'm gonna move on to John and see how I feel about that, maybe Matthew was a bit too intense for me

again.. thank you all

 

[Abandoned Barns]

I've often thought that a marriage is like two people in rowboats lost at sea on a stormy night desperately trying to find one another. Each boat with its own baggage and deficiencies. Each rower with their own strengths and fears. Neither knowing exactly where the other is.

You look for one another but the night is too dark; the fog and the rain too thick. You call to one another but the din of the storm and the waves too loud. There maybe brief moments where lightning illuminates the sky or the sound of the storm ever so briefly subsides wherein you think you may catch a glimpse of one another or hear fragment of a call. You adjust your course and paddle frantically in that direction only partially hopeful that you will find them.

"Was it real?", you wonder, "Did she see me as well?".

"Will she still be in that place when I get there or will the sea have swept her away to somewhere else by the time I get there?"

"How far have I rowed?"

"I must be where she was by now."

"She's not here."

Then in the pit of hopelessness you look up and see a light above the sea. You wonder at first if it is you who is remaining still and the light which is spinning around you or the boat which is spinning and the light fixed. "Look at my condition", you think "surely it is me who is lost". The more you consider the light, the more you realize that it is fixed, unchanging, true - a beacon.

You decide, right then, that no matter what you will row yourself towards the light. That will be the most important thing. And you know, just know in your heart, that she will do the same. Waves pelting against the side of your hull attempt to throw you of course, but you stay true. The lightning flashes again and you think you see something out of the corner of your eye. "was that her? Should I change direction again?", but you stay the course. Your arms tired and you begin to feel the burn of exhaustion, but the light never stops calling you towards it.

And when both of you have made that your single most important purpose; that no matter what you will never stop trying to reach the light, then no matter where you each are in the water. as long as you're moving towards the light you're also moving towards each other.

To a Christian, God has to be the third person in any marriage. He must be that fixed, immovable, lighthouse towards which you both are rowing. Because marriage really is not about being in the same boat, but rather each of you aligning your own boats under God's light. It took me 2 1/2 marriages to realize that.

We live in a society where love has been defined by Hollywood movies and MTV videos. "Our love will conquer all" has become our mantra for marriage. That's how the movie always ends - the two unlikely lovers in each others arms after realizing that their love is more important than any of their silly differences. That their love is sufficient to be the sole security to each of them living happily ever after is implied, but the movie always ends there. It never shows five years later when he's feeling convicted for not raising his children in the way of the Lord and your feeling judged for being the source of that conflict. It never shows your resentment that he won't stand up to his family for you as it grows. Leaves out the part as both of you feeling increasingly resentful because the other cannot see your side of things. That resentment becomes palpable in a marriage. Indeed, there comes a point where it becomes the only thing that is palpable.

Then one day comes along a nice-looking guy, who says all the right things and make certain that you feel completely at ease with being yourself around him. No judgment, no guilt, no explaining yourself, he makes you feel appreciated just for being you. "We're just friends" you tell yourself, "I wish my husband could be a little bit more like him ". You become confidantes, each others emotional support system. Until one day....

You never see that in the movie.

Please don't get me wrong; I can see how much you truly do love this man. I'm certainly not saying that this is exactly what will happen or that love has no place in a marriage, but by itself it's not enough. It's not enough because it's not unchanging. It's dynamic and what it means while you're dating is not the same as what it will mean after five years of marriage is not the same as what it will mean after 50 years of marriage.

In my life it's meaning has gone from anyone willing to say "well okay I'll go to bed with you" to deciding that "i'm going to be strong for you when you can't be strong for yourself " to having to say "I forgive you for having an affair." Love is not always fun and anyone who tries to imply otherwise is misleading us. In the beginning it always seems worth it because it's always fun. We don't generally fall in love with people who are actively making us miserable. But sometimes love makes us miserable. We don't think it will. We think it'll always be the same as it is in the beginning:

"you and me in the same boat".

"It's us against the world."

It's not until it becomes hard that we begin to wonder if it's really enough. If it's really worth all the work. Could we have been happier with someone else?

I don't know where I'd be right now without God in my life. I really don't know where my marriage would be if I hadn't been able to hand the reins over to God during some of those tough times. To turn to him during some of the most painful moments of my life. To, when all seemed lost and hopeless, be able to say that "no matter what I'm going to continue to row towards that light and I know that, no matter where she is now, she will too." I wouldn't know how to do it any other way.

So that's enough out of me. I'm sorry I let this get so long. I'll pray for both you and your boyfriend and I truly hope that together you find that light.

 

[honeysuckledreams]

Abandoned Barns... your story was beautiful... I could see the imagery of it in my mind's eye and I agree with you completely 100%.

I understand and accept the fact that he will never be able to understand/accept my beleifs. I ahve tried numerous times to describe mine to him but he can't comprehend it, jsut as I have a hard time comprehending his. And that is okay. that is also why after 6 years of living together, and we were ALWAYS together... he was my best friend, my lover, my fit. He was a part of my family more than anyone else I had ever met, and he was there before I even knew he was there. But that is why after 6 years I packed my things and left. Because I wasn't willing to sacrifice what I felt was a part of myself. My beliefs may be different from yours or his or theirs, but it is no less real to me.

Before I got with him I had a dream. I was at a beach house and there was this loooooooooong deck that stretched out for miles over the beach. it was night. I dreamt that there was a knock on the door and I opened the door and it was him and he asked me if he could come in.
I invited him in.

I think that is similar to what I will have to do with the religion, after reading the bible and i feel it is something i want to pursue, i know that God is always there with us wherever we go, and I already believe in angels... But I have to open the door and let him be seen.

I have so many biases, it is true. I have met people of the faith that I felt a lot of distaste for because of their actions, and they used their faith to justify those actions, and I could not agree with them and it gave me bias. However, I also understand that happens with just about any type of faith or belief and so I am trying to work past it.

Im not proud to admit it but its true. I think of part of me is defiant of believing in something that is already laid out. I think there is a aprt of me that is instantly willfully stubborn whenever someone tells me what to think/do/believe and that is something i have to overcome... so im trying to go into this with an open mind, but it is hard for me. I have to take my mindset and shift it till i can get it centered. I get stuck in rigid thinking patterns.


I agree completely about the God being the 3rd person in the marriage. Often I think in a relationship the two people do have to love each other, but need that common goal, otherwise it makes it very hard to sustain in the hard times.

 

[Abandoned Barns]

Wow. You remind me of me. I'm still on the job and there's some concrete coming here soon that I have to test, but I'd like to come back here later this evening when I get home by the computer (believe it or not, I wrote all that with the iPhone) and write some more, if that be alright.

 

[honeysuckledreams]

I'd appreciate that very much thank you

(and kudos on the awesome typing skills with the phone, woulda taken me foreverrrr haha)

 

[Abandoned Barns]

Well, Siri helped. You can actually write pretty quickly once you get over looking like the lunatic talking to his hand.

 

[seashale76]

Okay- this is a blind post after only reading your OP. I'm an ex-Pentecostal myself- if that counts for anything. The fact that your boyfriend was living with you without marriage means that he wasn't following his own faith. He was picking and choosing. Honestly, he shouldn't be telling you anything until he gets his own walk in Christ in order. Also, Tarot, oracle decks and that sort of thing is considered divination and is in direct conflict with the Christian faith.

All of that said, you shouldn't convert to a faith because of someone else, nor should you be under pressure to do so. Nobody can (or should try to) coerce, cajole, or guilt trip you into believing. I fully believe that God converts hearts, and people who truly seek Him will find Him. Converting to a faith is a big deal and is not something you should go into blindly. Take your time and do your research.

I do have some advice for you as well if you ever consider becoming a Christian.

1) Start attending church.
2) You need to be instructed in the faith. For example, all Orthodox parishes will instruct inquirer's regarding the faith.
3) Even if you are a believer- these things need to take place before you are baptized into Christ. Christianity is a big commitment and you absolutely should know what you're getting yourself into.
4) Despite your concerns about whether or not you are a Christian there is absolutely nothing that should be stopping you from reading the scriptures and even praying.

Where to find an Orthodox parish (as I only recommend those being biased as I am on the matter): Orthodoxy in America - Contact

Basics about the faith: OCA - The Orthodox Faith

Prayer resources that I've found helpful:
P r a y e r
Let us

A daily lectionary (esp. good if you have no idea where to start re: reading scripture):
Online Chapel — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

 

[Abandoned Barns]

Abandoned Barns... your story was beautiful... I could see the imagery of it in my mind's eye and I agree with you completely 100%.

Thank you, very much for the compliment, but to God goes the credit. If you had known me eight years ago (i.e. before I started getting right with God), you would have known that that I would have never been capable of even thinking, much less writing something like that publicly. It’s amazing to me how truly transforming my walk has been. The person I’ve become. The things that which I am now capable and the peace that I can now find are nothing short of incredible to me. I said that you remind me of me and that’s true – wanting to be open to the idea, but at the same time so certain that it wouldn’t work for me. It’s like trying to believe in Santa Clause after you’ve discovered the whole ugly truth, right? It’s why I’m so glad that you’ve found your way here. I’m also new here, and also like you I’ve always been (equally as much after as before coming to Jesus) weary of Christians who betray their words with action (can you see the quote in my signature below? I’m not sure that I did that right.). Actually, let me qualify that, because I do the same thing every day. I constantly betray Him. Constantly let Him down. I don’t know why He puts up with me actually, but still he does. I should have said that I’m wary of Christians who betray their words with their actions, but then either cannot or will not admit to doing so. But, what I’ve found in general is that when you come to Christian Message boards, you generally find Christians who are at least trying to do it right. Not that anyone here will be a perfect Christian, but that fact that a Christian would even come to a place like this on their downtime I think shows at least that were trying to be a little less imperfect.

I’m so excited for you for coming to the point at which you are now; the precipices of your own walk. I can truly feel a genuinely soft and loving heart living inside you.

I understand and accept the fact that he will never be able to understand/accept my beleifs. I ahve tried numerous times to describe mine to him but he can't comprehend it, jsut as I have a hard time comprehending his. And that is okay. that is also why after 6 years of living together, and we were ALWAYS together... he was my best friend, my lover, my fit. He was a part of my family more than anyone else I had ever met, and he was there before I even knew he was there. But that is why after 6 years I packed my things and left. Because I wasn't willing to sacrifice what I felt was a part of myself. My beliefs may be different from yours or his or theirs, but it is no less real to me.
Before I got with him I had a dream. I was at a beach house and there was this loooooooooong deck that stretched out for miles over the beach. it was night. I dreamt that there was a knock on the door and I opened the door and it was him and he asked me if he could come in.
I invited him in.

What is OK? That you cannot understand each other’s beliefs? Or do you mean that it’s ok that he believes something different than you do?

What does it mean; my fit?

The “He” at the door was your boyfriend or Jesus/God?

I dig dreams (most of the time). Shortly before being saved I had a dream that I never forgot. I’ll tell you about it, but first a little background:

[background]
At the time that I found Jesus, I was living above my parent’s bar/restaurant. The place was inside a giant old three story farmhouse. They had just opened it and had a few break ins, so wanted me to stay there at night to deter any future mishaps. I had a day job and then would come cook for them at night because they couldn’t afford to hire someone else. They also couldn’t afford to pay me, so the deal was that I could stay there in a finished room upstairs for free, eat for free and had open access to the bar for free. Now, I’m not proud of this, but I have to tell you that from the worldly perspective of an unmarried (between my second and third wife in those days) guy who did not know Jesus; living one flight of stairs above your parents bar and having open access to the kitchen, bar and unlimited supply of new waitresses did not stink. Every night I would finish my shift and sit at the bar drinking myself silly with this waitress or that waitress. Then go upstairs with this waitress or that waitress. For the longest time, you would have thought I had it made. In truth, I was miserable. Maybe still hurting from my second wife leaving me, maybe a side effect from being drunk every night, maybe something else. I don’t know. But I do know that I felt horribly empty inside. I can’t tell you how many times I can remember sitting at that bar, seemingly having a good time, but just staring into my half empty beer glass, praying. Praying, even before I came to God, for Him to take the pain I felt away. I’ll always remember the way it made me feel at the end of the night when the shift was over and the bartender would turn the lights on to clean up before leaving. Just minutes before when the light was dim and everyone was drinking and having a good time everything seemed like it was fine, but then when the drinking was over and then lights turned on, all you could see was filth. Spilt beer all over the floor and cigarette ashes all over the bar. Drunken people, who moments ago seemed attractive to me, now desperately scrambling to find someone, anyone to hook up with, before stumbling out the door alone. It was disgusting!

One day a new waitress came to work and there was something different about her. She was a Christian and made no pretense otherwise, but she was also struggling, with depression and alcohol. Her ex-husband from a wealthy family had just found a legal loophole which allowed him to take their daughter away from her and I don’t think she knew how to deal with all that pain. She and I would sit after work and talk about religion, and drink. It got to the point where we would actually bring a bible to work and then set it on the bar to read and talk about while we were drinking after work. To me it was a game. I really liked this girl and really wanted to get her to come upstairs with me. So I would entertain her “preaching”, pretending to be interested, but all the time knowing that I was in control. That nothing she had to say to could possibly affect what I already knew, but I was kinda head over heels for the girl.

[/background]

In the dream that I had, I was walking in the forest and when I looked up this girl was standing before me. Behind her I could see a light glowing, almost to the point where she was in silhouette. She reached out her arms on either side of her body, it didn’t occur to me then but just like Jesus on the cross, and I heard “Can’t you see that I love you? Can’t you see that I have always loved you?”. Like the dope that I was, I thought it was the girl speaking to me, but then she stepped aside and the light behind me washed over me. It surrounded me and filled me. For the first time in a long time, the emptiness was gone. The warmth and the love of that light filled me up like someone had opened a fire hose inside me. HonnySuckleDream, I’m certain it was God and until that moment where I was given faith I never once thought that I would be capable of faith.

[sorry, too long. Continued in next post]

 

[Abandoned Barns]

The girl and I never did work out. I’m Facebook friends with her, but no closer than that. You know how sometimes folks say that people come into your life for a reason, a season or a lifetime. I never really understood what that meant until I met her.

I think that is similar to what I will have to do with the religion, after reading the bible and i feel it is something i want to pursue, i know that God is always there with us wherever we go, and I already believe in angels... But I have to open the door and let him be seen.
I have so many biases, it is true. I have met people of the faith that I felt a lot of distaste for because of their actions, and they used their faith to justify those actions, and I could not agree with them and it gave me bias. However, I also understand that happens with just about any type of faith or belief and so I am trying to work past it.
Im not proud to admit it but its true.

Yeah, crummy Christian stink. The problem is that we’re all really kind of crummy Christians. I think the secret to becoming a better Christian is to really accept that you are and always will be a crummy one. Hopefully a little bit less crummy today then yesterday and a bit more less crummy then when I first came to Jesus and even more less crummy when it’s time for me to go home, but crummy none the less. We’re week creatures, fallible, sinful by nature. It’s so easy for us to mistake our own pride for God’s will sometimes, that we fail to do the things to which we profess to being committed, in fact, before we realize it, we’re doing the exact opposite. I don’t know, but you can’t judge Christ by Christians any more than you can judge a physician by the extent to which his patients follow his recommendations. Being a Christian is about a personal relationship with Jesus, not about being a member of some club and in your walk you’ll find yourself failing many times. He’s not counting how many times you fall, He’s counting how many times you get up.

I think of part of me is defiant of believing in something that is already laid out. I think there is a aprt of me that is instantly willfully stubborn whenever someone tells me what to think/do/believe and that is something i have to overcome... so im trying to go into this with an open mind, but it is hard for me. I have to take my mindset and shift it till i can get it centered. I get stuck in rigid thinking patterns.

Well sure. You should be. Don’t take my word for it, or your boyfriend’s or anyone else’s for that matter. I agree with those who have said here that you should not become a Christian, simply to make your boyfriend or his family happy. In fact, you cannot become a Christian, simply to make your boyfriend or his family happy. Like I said, it’s not a club that you can just sign up for. You could pretend to be a Christian. You might could pretend so well that everyone believes that you are the best Christian they’ve ever met, but it will not make you a Christian. That’s something that happens in your heart, in God’s own time.

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Don’t force it, just don’t force it away.

You know, my youngest boy is four years old now, but I still remember him being just a little thing and how he loved to be put in one of those baby swings for infants. His was green and had one of those fancy colorful musical mobiles hanging over it with figures which glowed in the dark and moved in succession with the swing. I used to get up early with him, feed him and put him in that swing next to the fireplace while I did my morning devotional. What always amazed me was how he would stare directly past that fancy, colorful, musical mobile in order to consider just a stone in the fireplace hearth. I thought about that a lot in those days and I think that it was because to him the two (the stone and the mobile) were equally as wondrous. He had literally no preconceived notions or biases about the world around him. Everything was magical. Can you remember a time when your whole world was about the simple things like love and family? We all exist for a time like that, but then we get a little older and begin to realize that the world is more complex than we thought it was and that’s scary because we no longer feel like we’re in control. So what we do is figure out these little tricks for dealing with the complexity around us, rules about making our life easier; don’t kiss Mama at the bus stop or else the other kids will make fun of you, if I tell a little lie about what really happened to the dog’s hair I won’t get in so much trouble, If I pretend to be something I’m not girls might like me better, I don’t have to deal with what’s really wrong in my life if I numb myself with drugs or alcohol. Etc. Some of those tricks actually work, so we begin to feel like we know better. That we know better than our teachers. We know better than our parents. That we know better than God. Then, you get older still and you realize that it really is all about the simple things like love and family.

Maybe that’s why Jesus tells us that we should come to him like children:

but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.

or that, to come to God, we must be born again”

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God

That is to say that in order to find our faith, we must first be willing to let go of all the things in which we think we already have faith. It’s different than in school, where one truth builds upon the last truth. In faith we must abandon all which we believe to be true, in order to find truth. That’s my prayer for you; that as you embark on this walk, you choose to do so without the baggage of that which you think you already know, but rather as a newborn opening their eyes for the very first time. That you will approach him as you have approached us here - with open eyes and a soft heart.

He’s there HoneySuckleDreams. I promise you He is. Like a cat in the corner of a dim room that you just realized has been there all the time silently waiting for you to acknowledge him.

I agree completely about the God being the 3rd person in the marriage. Often I think in a relationship the two people do have to love each other, but need that common goal, otherwise it makes it very hard to sustain in the hard times.

As I’ve said, I really can’t think of any other way. I’m so glad you’re here. You’re in my prayers.

 

[dcalling]

Welcome to CF HS! Reading your post a lot of your views are like mine, since I come from a Atheist/Buddhist background, and it is very likely God has put spirits in animals as well, might be a different kind I am not sure.

It took me over 10 years to became a Christian, constantly arguing with my Christian friends to try to bring them to the scientific side, and eventually it is the scientific facts that brought me over

Your boyfriend's situation sounds strange. It seems (it is not our job to judge others, this is just how I feel) he got a lot more baggage for been a Christian. For me, I have been much happier after became a real Christian, I am not afraid of sins any more, even though i still sin (I won't download mp3s, but still can't control my schedule, still eat junk food), I don't feel it bounds me any more. You might want to talk to your boy friend about that.

It is a good thing you started to read Bible. When I first reading the bible I don't understand it at all, all I like are the OT stories, and they give me material to shame the Christians Now I realize it is the best rule book, don't kill, don't steal, don't covet, and the best one, love your neighbor as yourself. Those are what real Christians should do, and the ones who can't do that (which is all of us) can still get salvation through Jesus. And since Jesus exists from the very beginning (even before the Bible is written), the ones who has not heard of Bible but try to follow his ways (I believe when God made us he wrote those in our genes) can also be saved.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I also picked up a Bible over the weekend. I tried starting off with the gospel of Matthew but I got confused by some of the things said. Like where Jesus mentions one should pray to God only in secret, and that a man should cut off his right hand before touching himself... down there... i don't know if i was reading it right but I think I'm gonna move on to John and see how I feel about that, maybe Matthew was a bit too intense for me

again.. thank you all

Usually when people ask me what book of the Bible they should read first, I usually suggest the Gospel of Luke. A lot of people suggest John, but if you think Matthew can be difficult, John is a doozy. I think someone is far better off with either Mark (the shortest gospel) or Luke. I like Luke because, for one, Luke seems to be written for someone who may be inquiring into the basic "Jesus story". Who this Jesus was, what He said, what He did, etc.

Matthew can be hard because Matthew is more likely to use various turns of phrase that could be difficult. The other gospels do this as well, but Matthew perhaps more so.

Moving beyond that, I think it is very important to understand that Jesus very often employs hyperbole for emphasis. You've seen some of that already. Jesus uses exaggerated language to emphasize the points He makes, such as "if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off". Jesus isn't literally saying someone should cut off their hand, the point is instead to know the severity of sin. Also, Jesus isn't talking about masturbation here, it's far more broad.

There's a story from early Christianity, I don't know how true it is, but it's a nice cautionary tale anyway. So the story goes an early Christian teacher, Origen, in fact one of the most important and famous in Christian history, read in the Gospels where Jesus says that some "become eunuchs for the kingdom" and took that to mean that he should remove his....delicates. Needless to say, he later regretted that decision.

When Jesus says we should go into the closet to pray, He is speaking against those who in public make great big gestures, to impress others with their religious importance, speaking loud and flaunting their religiosity. Jesus finds this to be arrogant. By contrasting going into our closet to pray with the loud, public religious orations of some people, He is pointing out that prayer should be done with humility and quietness. Not that we have to, literally, go and hide, or that we can't pray with others, in open spaces.

Very often Jesus' point is to condemn religious pride and arrogance, to condemn hypocrisy. For Jesus true religion is not in outward appearance, but in true humility before God, true religion does not brag of one's own righteousness, but recognizes one's sins, it is found in repentance, humility, mercy, in lowering ourselves for the sake of others, before both God and our fellow man.

Understanding Jesus' hyperbole is important, especially when you get to places such as, "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" Jesus does not mean a sword, literally, but rather speaks of the reality that following Him is going to cut social ties. Becoming a Christian in antiquity was risky business, there are plenty of stories about men and women converting, and having their parents and spouses and children rejecting them, and even disowning them. That's the "sword" Jesus refers to.

If you are interested in basic introductory material to Christianity, more broadly, there are some good ones out there. A popular book among Christians of all denominations and backgrounds tends to be "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis; Lewis, though an Anglican, sought to emphasize Christianity broadly rather than focus on his own denomination. It's been a while since I've read it, but I remember Alister McGrath's (also Anglican) "I Believe" to be good; McGrath uses the Apostles' Creed, a confession of faith recited every Sunday by both Roman Catholic and Protestant (Anglican/Episcopalian, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc) Christians across the world, and touches on each point of the Creed and what it means and why it matters.

In fact, if anyone were to come to me and say, "I know nothing about the Christian religion, what should I read?" there are exactly three (or four) things I would recommend:

1) The Gospel according to St. Luke
2) The Nicene Creed (and/or the Apostles' Creed)
3) St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans

Luke will teach someone who Jesus is and what He said and what He did. Paul's letter to the Romans is an incredibly important letter to the Christian community in Rome detailing the problem of human sin, our need for God's grace, and God's saving work in Jesus to take us and rescue us. The Creed (Nicene or Apostles') point-by-point outlines the foundational basics of what Christianity teaches and what Christians have always believed (Roman Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, all of us).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[aiki]

Its not that i don't believe in God, but I have a hard time accepting the biblical image of God. The more i think about it, i think im just scared of the commitment of choosing ONE (version, how i have usually seen it) God.

Why should it scare you? If there is only one God, then worshipping other gods would be wrong and foolish, would it not? So, the question is, then, is there truly just one God? I think so. Why do you think not?

I am going to try to read the Bible and see if i can somehow find where the beliefs are similar and try to see how i can merge my beliefs into the stuff that's in the bible.

Um, what you've written here is very much a reflection of the dominant post-modern philosophy of the culture in which you live, but it is a recipe for disaster when it comes to the Christian faith. Christianity is not a malleable, inclusive system of beliefs. Rather the opposite, actually. Christianity is highly exclusivistic and narrow in its conception of truth. For someone like yourself who has such a fluid and vague perception of God and spirituality the relatively rigid and inflexible doctrines and theology of the Christian faith are going to feel...restrictive. Picking and choosing from Christian doctrine and adding from it to your own mish-mash of spiritual beliefs is not going to lead you to truth but only to confusion and delusion.

i'm just at a point where i'm kind of stuck though... I want to remain true to myself, i don't want to convert just for him,

This is absolutely the wrong reason to become a follower of Christ. Being a Christian is about entering into relationship with God through Christ. It is not a set of rituals or traditions, but holy fellowship with your Maker. Do you honestly think God would accept trying to please your boyfriend as an appropriate motive for walking with Him? The Bible makes it clear that we walk with God because we love Him. No other motive will do.

if i do i truly want to believe with all my heart, but i get scared i guess or stubborn or defiant or whatever... i have a hard time following what other people tell me to do, so its hard for me to follow what someone tells me to believe.

This is always the heart of the problem all humans have with God. We want to be our own boss. We certainly don't want someone telling us that our choices and conduct are evil! But we all know that walking with God requires that we submit to God's rule and way and admit that what He says about our sinfulness is true. Quite honestly, no one can do this of their own accord. God must work to bring every person to the place where they can lovingly submit to Him. We are just too full of ourselves, to self-willed, to ever do this on our own.

I have thought about changing my label "spirit, universe" to God in my mind and maybe that will help... i truly admire a lot of Christians, and i know that i can't judge the religion/faith on a few Christians that might have become "corrupted" in my eyes, because that happens with just about nearly everything.

Do you judge Mozart's musical genius by listening to his music played by a sixth grade school band or by the best philharmonic orchestra you can find? Which will give you the best rendering of Mozart's music? Likewise, Christianity ought to be judged by the best example you can find of it, not some lesser example.

I just feel it is really important to be as honest as i possibly can. I love this man and i know that I would like to marry him and have his children, but this part if the prerequisite. he doesn't approve of my divination with tarot either because he says evil spirits live in the deck, so i have a question for any Pentecostals.... would an Oracle deck be okay? Like an angel oracle deck or something? I am willing to make the compromise on it, but i have to admit i do find a lot of guidance from my cards and i don't know if i can give them up, but i am willing to find an alternate version of them...

My dear, tarot card reading is not of God. And if it is not of God, then of what is it? The Bible indicates that such things are of the demonic. In this your boyfriend is correct. But it is hard to hear it from him when he is living so hypocritically as a Christian. The demonic is just as much at work in his sinful choices as they are in the divination of tarot card reading.

i don't know, i am very confused, and i am trying to get past all the barriers and biases built up in my mind and look at Christianity with an unbiased perspective so that i can be an empty cup waiting to be filled, but it is hard for me...

It is impossible, really. Only God can make you one of His own. He must save you; you cannot save yourself. Trying to force yourself to be open to Christianity is not going to work. You must ask God to change your heart. You must ask Him to show you the truth about Himself and about you, too. And you must continue to do so until He does. God will move heaven and earth to reveal Himself to one who sincerely desires to know Him.

I think that is similar to what I will have to do with the religion, after reading the bible and i feel it is something i want to pursue, i know that God is always there with us wherever we go, and I already believe in angels... But I have to open the door and let him be seen.

Jesus said,

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Selah.

 

[Heaven Lee]

This may seem kind of weird, but once you accept God as your savior, your acceptance is the only justification that you require. No other reasons re needed. The peace that you receive from the Lord is more than enough to justify your acceptance of the Lord. But you must accept him to receive that. That is his only condition.