ABUSIVE husband...

[Theogonia]

The "marital unfaithfulness" Jesus alluded to is strictly "porneia" - sexual infidelity. That's what the original language says, and that's strictly what that word means. Other "serious" reasons would have been known of (such as killing your children behind your back) but were not listed. That's worth a thought.


None of God's commands for marraiges apply only to healthy ones. In fact, His advice is the advice to take if your marraige is sick, so that He can do His part and heal the relationship.


I don't believe that because it doesn't match up with the recurring theme of Him calling people into painful missions - Jesus to the cross, Paul to Jerusalem, Jeremiah to preach, etc. Or consider Ruth - should she have not married her first husband because God knew he was going to die so early? Or Hannah - assuming she was the legitimate wife to begin with, should she have not married Elkanah, even though through him Samuel was brought into the world? Or Abigail - Did God not join her to Nabal, even though he was no good?

Abuse isn't a serious reason?

The fact is that God never addresses divorce for certain reasons like abuse. When he talks about it it's always about normal marriages.

 

[AngelDove1]

If just that sin is going to condem someone to Hell, then we are ALL going because no one is sinless.

That's why we have the Grace of God.

Amen....
don't forget Mercy

 

[Tavita]

There is no Biblical reason to believe that people who marry have not been joined together and married by God - unless one or both of them is divorced, as Jesus taught. Read Matthew 19 again.

Twistedsketch, I would like your view on whether it's still a marriage in God's eyes if He (God) told you NOT to marry that person... but you did, out of disobedience.

Do you think you are married in God's eyes?... in reference to the verse that says...

(Mar 10:9 NASB) "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

 

[followjesus777]

i dont understand ...are some here saying that one should condone the sin and just accept and welcome abuse if it is dished out to a person simply because they married the person years ago b4 they were a Christian and the Lord has called us to do so, and in this way we will suffer for HIM?

imo, manytimes for the safety of the wife and children boundries need to be set up...which often require separation to be effective in abusive situations...boundries do not condone the sin of abuse tollerating it and contributing to it by allowing it to continue, but boundries like separation draw a line of intollerance to this serious sin.

imo ...No pastor led by the Lord, would advise someone to stay put in an abusive home especially with children witnessing.

PRAYING that The Lord guide Your every step Amen!

 

[Sketcher]

Twistedsketch, I would like your view on whether it's still a marriage in God's eyes if He (God) told you NOT to marry that person... but you did, out of disobedience.

Do you think you are married in God's eyes?... in reference to the verse that says...

(Mar 10:9 NASB) "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

If one of the two of them was divorced, then it is not marraige but adultery.

If neither of them was divorced, then it's marraige anyway. In that case, too bad. It would be like the Israelites and the Gibeonites, IMO.

i dont understand ...are some here saying that one should condone the sin and just accept and welcome abuse if it is dished out to a person simply because they married the person years ago b4 they were a Christian and the Lord has called us to do so, and in this way we will suffer for HIM?

I never said anything about condoning the husband's sin of abuse, let alone welcome it. I'm just saying it is not a Biblically legitimate reason for divorce and remarraige. Being as divorce is a stepping stone to adulterous remarraiges, I hope you can see why I and others on this side of the issue would be against it. This is to say nothing of what a divorce will put the children through.

 

[Sketcher]

Abuse isn't a serious reason?

The fact is that God never addresses divorce for certain reasons like abuse. When he talks about it it's always about normal marriages.

I never said it wasn't serious, but it isn't excusable before God.

You have yet to prove that His rules for marraige and divorce only apply to healthy marraiges. If you can't use Scripture in context for that, don't bother.

 

[Sketcher]

If just that sin is going to condem someone to Hell, then we are ALL going because no one is sinless.

That's why we have the Grace of God.

Even without hell, you have the shame of dissapointing your Father and losing many Heavenly rewards that you would have otherwise inherited. The American church is so lukewarm, and divorce is so prevalent. I can't help but wonder if the two are related. The better part of so many adult lives spent in adultery! How can that be good for the Kingdom? How can those people be as close to God as they could have been otherwise?

"Another thing you do: You flood the LORD's altar with tears. You weep and wail because he no longer pays attention to your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands. You ask, 'Why?' It is because the LORD is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant." - Malachi 2:13-14

 

[myredeemerJESUSlives]

If one of the two of them was divorced, then it is not marraige but adultery.

If neither of them was divorced, then it's marraige anyway. In that case, too bad. It would be like the Israelites and the Gibeonites, IMO.


I never said anything about condoning the husband's sin of abuse, let alone welcome it. I'm just saying it is not a Biblically legitimate reason for divorce and remarraige. Being as divorce is a stepping stone to adulterous remarraiges, I hope you can see why I and others on this side of the issue would be against it. This is to say nothing of what a divorce will put the children through.

I was married b4 this marriage for 4 years, then when I married this man neither of us was a Christian but i was saved shortly there after. I do not see this as having any effect on my situation because Jesus has washed me white as snow when I came to my knees burried my sins in the deepest sea.

To my knowlege, for one to follow "the law" to the letter isnt always a testimony of God's presence. The pharisees followed the letter of the law and it didnt do them much good.

I am praying and hoping that the Lord brings my DH to his knees and to complete repentance, this is the desire of my heart. I tend to think that what the children have and do witness is much greater harm than separation from the abuser, but then only I know the depravity of the Abuse they have witnessed.

Thankyou for your prayerful advice and concern for my family. May you be abundantly blessed amen.

 

[Sketcher]

I was married b4 this marriage for 4 years, then when I married this man neither of us was a Christian. I do not see this as having any effect on my situation because Jesus has washed me white as snow when I came to my knees my sins baried in the deepest sea.

To my knowlege, for one to follow "the law" to the letter isnt always a testimony of God's presence. The pharisees followed the letter of the law and it didnt do them much good.

I am praying and hoping that the Lord brings my DH to his knees and repentance, this is the desire of my heart. I tend to think that what the children have and do witness is much greater harm than separation from the abuser, but then only I know the depravity of the Abuse they have witnessed.

Thankyou for your prayerful advice and concern for my family. May you be abundantly blessed amen.

Well geez, I didn't know you were married before this. That sheds some light.

As for the Pharisees, they added stuff to the law. I hope and pray that I haven't done that, I avoid that as much as I can. For what its worth I have been known to fight just as fiercely for Christian liberty on different subjects. I'm not fighting for that here because quite honestly there isn't a lot. I'm a Bible, no more, no less kind of guy and on this topic I just happen to be fighting for no less.

Anyway, I continue to pray for his repentance and whatever God's will is for your lives.

 

[myredeemerJESUSlives]

Well geez, I didn't know you were married before this. That sheds some light.

As for the Pharisees, they added stuff to the law. I hope and pray that I haven't done that, I avoid that as much as I can. For what its worth I have been known to fight just as fiercely for Christian liberty on different subjects. I'm not fighting for that here because quite honestly there isn't a lot. I'm a Bible, no more, no less kind of guy and on this topic I just happen to be fighting for no less.

Anyway, I continue to pray for his repentance and whatever God's will is for your lives.

Im curious what light that sheds considering i was not yet filled with the HolySpirit 22 long yrs ago? I was the "worst kind of sinner" before I became a Christian, but Jesus Blood was "sufficient", "all debts" of my sin were "nailed to the cross" when Jesus came into my heart. amen

 

[Sketcher]

Im curious what light that sheds considering i was not yet filled with the HolySpirit 22 long yrs ago? I was the "worst kind of sinner" before I became a Christian, but Jesus Blood was "sufficient", "all debts" of my sin were "nailed to the cross" when Jesus came into my heart. amen

Oh, I don't have a problem with that part, it's just the "previous marraige" factor and how it relates to your current situation.

 

[Flipper]

Even without hell, you have the shame of dissapointing your Father and losing many Heavenly rewards that you would have otherwise inherited. The American church is so lukewarm, and divorce is so prevalent. I can't help but wonder if the two are related. The better part of so many adult lives spent in adultery! How can that be good for the Kingdom? How can those people be as close to God as they could have been otherwise?

"Another thing you do: You flood the LORD's altar with tears. You weep and wail because he no longer pays attention to your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands. You ask, 'Why?' It is because the LORD is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant." - Malachi 2:13-14

Man, with all this legalism, where DOES Grace and Mercy fit in?

All those abused, broken, women who divorce and find someone who actually takes care of them - so evil they are.

Thankfully, I have never been in an abusive situation, but I've known people who have. I honestly will take on the punishment for that person's sin, if it really is a sin, if they remarry. You obviously have no clue how broken their minds can be before they get out of the abusive situation - if they can get out alive, and how their mind can heal once they allow someone who is willing to help with that healing process.

I'm willing to guess, if there are any statistics on this, that very few women who get out of abusive marriages (whether by legal separation or divorce) will remarry. Not because of what the Bible says, but because their minds have been so broken that they just don't trust anyone. But, hey, they aren't committing any sins there, so why should you care beyond that?

Let's see.. there's all this evil in the world and you have to concentrate on this one particular sin? Are you that greedy that you have to have every single treasure available to you in heaven? I'd rather get into Heaven, period. If I don't get those treasures becuase I showed sympathy to a broken mind who was able to heal their mind, while here on Earth - that's just fine with me.

 

[heron]

Exodus 21:22-36

If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide.

But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.

22:9

For every breach of trust, whether it is for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for clothing, or for any lost thing about which one says, `This is it,' the case of both parties shall come before the judges; he whom the judges condemn shall pay double to his neighbor.

 

[heron]

Deut 27:14, 25
'Cursed [SIZE=-1][/SIZE]is he who strikes his neighbor in secret.' And all the people shall say, `Amen.'

`Cursed [SIZE=-1][/SIZE] is he who accepts a bribe to strike down an innocent person.' And all the people shall say, `Amen.

 

[heron]

Numbers 35
And if he pushes him down, or has thrown at him by lying in wait, and he dies; or if he has struck him with his hand in enmity, and he dies, the striker shall certainly be put to death; he is a murderer.

When the avenger of blood meets him he shall put to death the murderer. And if in an instant he pushed him without enmity, or has thrown at him anything without lying in wait; or with any stone without seeing, by which he dies, and has caused it to fall on him, and he dies, and he is not an enemy to him, nor seeking his evil; then the congregation shall judge between the striker and the avenger of blood, by these judgments.

And the congregation shall deliver the manslayer out of the avenger of blood's hand. And the congregation shall return him to the city of refuge to which he had fled, and he shall live in it until the high priest dies, he who was anointed with the holy oil.

Whoever kills any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses. And one witness shall not testify against a person, to die. And you shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer; he is punishable for death, for dying he shall die.

And you shall take no ransom for him to flee to the city of his refuge, to return to dwell in the land, until the death of the priest.

And you shall not pollute the land in which you are, for blood pollutes the land. And no ransom is to be taken for the land for blood which is shed in it, except for the blood of him who sheds it.

And these things shall be to you for a statute of judgment for your generations, in all your dwellings.


Lev 24:17
'If a man takes the life of any human being, he shall surely be put to death.

Lev 24:18
The one who takes the life of an animal shall make it good, life for life.

(Notice the high respect for animals... one would assume that a wife holds significantly higher respect)

Lev 24:21
Thus the one who kills an animal shall make it good, but the one who kills a man shall be put to death.

 

[snoochface]

I am not advocating the OP sit and take the abuse from her husband. In all this debate of legalism and suffering, the basic point of the argument is being lost.

She can LEAVE her husband. Not divorce, but LEAVE him, for her own safety and the safety of her children. Then, while SEPARATED (not divorced) they should get Christian counseling together and try to be reconciled. If they cannot be reconciled, and they remain separated - even if she takes the next step to divorce - she CANNOT remarry.

No one is saying she has to live in an abusive relationship. But come on, legalism is not what we're talking about here. We're talking about following the word of God which is pretty clear and very specific in this case. Separate, remain safe from the abuse, try to reconcile, and if it's not possible, remain unmarried.

1 Corinthians 7:8-11
But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

 

[heron]

I've found that, aside from the death penalty, the scriptural laws for abuse and divorce are very similar to the current US laws.

Christians tend to hold tighter to their marriages than the laws of the land and the OT laws recommend.

 

[joyousliving]

I am not advocating the OP sit and take the abuse from her husband. In all this debate of legalism and suffering, the basic point of the argument is being lost.

She can LEAVE her husband. Not divorce, but LEAVE him, for her own safety and the safety of her children. Then, while SEPARATED (not divorced) they should get Christian counseling together and try to be reconciled. If they cannot be reconciled, and they remain separated - even if she takes the next step to divorce - she CANNOT remarry.

No one is saying she has to live in an abusive relationship. But come on, legalism is not what we're talking about here. We're talking about following the word of God which is pretty clear and very specific in this case. Separate, remain safe from the abuse, try to reconcile, and if it's not possible, remain unmarried.

1 Corinthians 7:8-11
But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

This is good advice. I would only add that she also enlist the help of her church. How much better would it be to see this man repent and have God change him into the husband and father that He intended rather than see this family torn to shreds!!!

From a purely pragmatic view....

The other thing I want to add here is that I am sure the OP appreciates is about the kids. I am sure that this sister in Christ has found a way to take the problems with her husband to the Lord. Additionally, she is there to buffer any abuse that the husband shows toward the kids. If they divorce she will not have that same ability to shield the kids. In the absence of physically abuse the legal system is unlikely to restrict this man's right to equitable visitation.

Sometimes I think that the attitude toward marriage is in some ways similar to pregnancy. If a woman finds herself dealing with an unwanted pregnancy the lie the world tells is that an abortion will put her back in the place she was before she got pregnant. If you find yourself in a difficult marriage, we think that divorce allow us to be single again. Because she has children the reality is that she will continue to have to deal with this man's abuse whether or not she is married to him.

The reality is that you cannot undo the clock. Only after the pregnancy or the marriage is terminated can one appreciate the sort of pain that those lies can cause.

I am NOT saying that the OP is guilty of believing a lie. It seems that she is really struggling to honor her marriage vows. I believe that God is faithful. If He wants her released from this vow He will make it abundantly clear. If He is asking her to trust Him IN the marriage, He will give her the grace to sustain her.

I am deeply saddened that we so quickly jump to sever a tie that God says is a lifetime committment RATHER than join in prayer for this family and believe that God can heal.

 

[Theogonia]

I never said it wasn't serious, but it isn't excusable before God.

You have yet to prove that His rules for marraige and divorce only apply to healthy marraiges. If you can't use Scripture in context for that, don't bother.

Read the scripture yourself. Does he ever say anything about abuse? I think not.

That means it's a gray area. It's relative.

I'm sorry, but how can you know what's excusable before God? It's not like he says that even in the case of abuse you can't divorce. He never even mentions it.

If God doesn't specifically state something, that obviously means it's up to us to use our own judgement in the situation.

And you can't quote scripture like 7 Corinthians 8:11, because it's probably not relevant to our culture today.

Back then, the women didn't have rights like they do now. If a woman divorced and remarried, it was adultery, because she didn't have the right to break the marriage in the first place. Now you notice it says if a woman leaves she must remain single or be reconciled. It doesn't say ANYTHING about the husband not remarrying if he leaves, or the woman remarrying if the husband leaves, only if she leaves. That makes sense with what I just told you about the culture.

In the Jewish culture back then, only the husband could issue a legal divorce.

Now, in our culture, the women have just as much right as the men to issue a divorce, so that passage is irrelevant.

 

[snoochface]

Scotty, that scripture is MORE strict for the man than it is for the woman. The woman CAN leave her husband, she just can't remarry. The man isn't even allowed to divorce his wife AT ALL, much less remarry.

Your argument about women's rights back then doesn't hold much water. If it was a matter of women having fewer rights, then why is a woman allowed to leave her husband, but a husband is not allowed to divorce his wife? Wouldn't that mean she has MORE rights than her husband does?

The husband is considered the spiritual leader of the home. As such, he is held to a higher standard. Read Ephesians 5.