Abundance of Vernacular Scriptures before Wycliff

RccWarrior · Feb 4, 2007

By the way I would kill and ex-communicate anyone who tried in vain to try and change the Word of Almighty God. To try and change His Word because that's exactly what these heretics tried to do and we protected it. Period.

S Walch · Feb 4, 2007

RccWarrior said:
Now I think you've crossed the line with your insults to my beloved Pope, the successor to Peter himself, and the fact you don't understand the Catholic church, but you hear it from your pastors misleading you and on anti-Catholic sights. I am done with my thread, I told you everything you need to know, if you want to turn the other way, that is your problem not mine. I suggest you re-read everything about Tyndale, Wycliff and the others. I am just glad I am who I am. I am happy there are 1.5 billion Catholics in spite of everything you and others say bad about my church. Next time you go to church, ask yourself what am I missing. Peace.

And you crossed the line one page one with your comments concerning Wycliffe and Tynsdale - Two very fine Englishmen I might add, who did not try in anyway to change the Scriptures. The RC Church murdered and desecrated two innocent men, who cared deeply for their fellow countrymen's souls.

You also didn't bring up a single thing I didn't already know concerning Tynsdale and Wycliffe, but you did prove your own ignorance on the matter.

Also, your willingness to kill is quite disturbing.

Rdr Iakovos · Feb 4, 2007

RccWarrior said:
By the way I would kill and ex-communicate anyone who tried in vain to try and change the Word of Almighty God. To try and change His Word because that's exactly what these heretics tried to do and we protected it. Period.

Ex-communication I can understand, if there is a clear break with the dogmatic tradition- say, for example, teaching modalism. I happen to think that there is a good deal of diversity and variation that should flourish even within apostolic tradition.

But you say that you would kill someone for these offenses? I would never, ever, ever support the Church of God killing an heretic. Yes, it happened at times in Byzantium, generally on orders of the Emperor, not the Church. In eiter regard, you would find no Ameican Orthodox hierarch, priest, or laity who would support such action.

I believe sincerely that the Holy Spirit does lead the Church INTO all truth, and that the HS has lead all three traditions away from killing the heretics. All three- Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox, stand with blood on our hands in this matter. Let our repentance be evident to all. Your post reads more like a Muslim tract, in this respect, than a Christian one. Surely you don't mean that you would kill the infidel?

Trento · Feb 4, 2007

S Walch said:
Whilst yes, there were different translations of the Bible into different langauges - just how many times were the populace given them?

Wycliffes English translation of the Scriptures was give to at least 1000 members of the English speaking public.

Pope St. Gregory I (died 604 AD)
The Emperor of heaven, the Lord of men and of angels, has sent you His epistles for your lifes advantageand yet you neglect to read them eagerly. Study them, I beg you, and meditate daily on the words of your Creator. Learn the heart of God in the words of God, that you may sigh more eagerly for things eternal, that your soul may be kindled with greater longings for heavenly joys.
[Letters, 5, 46. (EnchBibl 31)]

St. Bonaventure (1221-1274 AD)
In his day, there where no public schools and only the wealthy could afford private tutors. Therefore, most people could not read or write. St. Bonaventure had composed a copy of Biblia Pauperum which means the Bible of the poor. It contained a collection of pictures illustrating the important events of the Old Testament. It also contained parallel scenes in the New Testament and it showed how the Old Testament prefigured and was fulfilled in the Life and Teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament. This helped the people to learn Gods Word by showing them the important stories of both the Old and New Testament. He was canonized a Saint by Pope Sixtus IV in1482 AD. He was declared a Doctor of the Church by Pope Sixtus V in 1588 AD.

Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903 AD)
The solicitude of the apostolic office naturally urges and even compels usto desire that this grand source of Catholic revelation (the Bible) should be made safely and abundantly accessible to the flock of Jesus Christ
...For sacred Scripture is not like other books. Dictated by the Holy Ghost, it contains things of the deepest importance, which in many instances are most difficult and obscure. To understand and explain such things there is always required the 'coming' of the same Holy Ghost; that is to say, His light and His grace...It is absolutely wrong and forbidden either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of holy Scripture or to admit that the sacred writer has erred... and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration is not only essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true.
[Providentissimus Deus ( Nov. 18, 1893)]
He also encouraged the reading of Holy Scripture by granting an indulgence to those who read it for at least 25 minutes.

Pope St. Pius X (1903-1914 AD)
Nothing would please us more than to see our beloved children form the habit of reading the Gospels - not merely from time to time, but every day.

Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922 AD)
He repeated St. Jerome's statement:
Ignorance of Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.
He expressed his desire that, ... all the children of the Church, especially clerics, to reverence the Holy Scriptures, to read it piously and meditate on it constantly. He reminded them that, ...in these pages is to be sought that food, by which the spiritual life is nourished unto perfection...

Pope Pius XII 1943 AD
Our predecessors, when the opportunity occurred, recommended the study or preaching or in fine the pious reading and meditation of the sacred Scriptures.
...This author of salvation, Christ, will men more fully know, more ardently love and more faithfully imitate in proportion as they are more assiduously urged to know and meditate the Sacred Letters, especially the New Testament...
[Divino Afflante Spiritu]
He also granted indulgences (a blessing of God's grace) to those who read Scripture. (1 Cor. 4:1.)

HISTORY of the CHRISTIAN CHURCH Phillip Schoff Protestant Historical Scholar

CHAPTER VI. Schoff

Fortunately, the weakness of the empire and the want of centralization prevented the execution of the prohibition of Protestant books, except in strictly papal countries, as Bavaria and Austria. But unfortunately, the Protestants themselves, who used the utmost freedom of the press against the Papists, denied it to each other; the Lutherans to the Reformed, and both to the Anabaptists, Schwenkfeldians and Socinians.756 Protestant princes liked to control the press to protect themselves against popery, or the charges of robbery of church property and other attacks. The Elector John Frederick was as narrow and intolerant as Duke George on the opposite side.
Obviously, the Church preferred that Catholics read bibles which reflected the orthodox Catholic interpretation of the Word of God. The misuse of the Gospel against the Church established by Christ himself is as Pope Leo XII noted nothing less than satanic. Interpretation of Church history or tradition, is as cloudy as the Protestants understanding of the Scriptur

7TH CENTURY THE FIRST TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE IN TO FRENCH LANGUAGE: FrenchVersions of the Psalms and the Apocalypse, and a metrical rendering of the Book of Kings, appeared as early as the seventh century.(9) In 1223 (A. D.)a complete translation was made under the Catholic King Louis the Pious. This was 320 years before the first Protestant French version. (7) Up to the fourteenth century, many Bible histories were produced.

7TH CENTURY, THE FIRST GERMAN VERSION: The history of Biblical research in Germany shows that of the numerous partial versions in the vernacular some go back to the seventh and eighth centuries. It also establishes the certainty of such versions on a considerable scale in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, and points to a complete Bible of the fifteenth in general use before the invention of printing.(9)

These two leaf are from different Bibles in French. They were both hand copied about the year 1250 (AD.) and are written in a very fine, regular, hand : The initials at the beginning of every chapter are very elaborate!

7TH CENTURY, SPACES PLACED BETWEEN THE WORDS: In the seventh Century, Irish and English monks began to leave space between the words as they copied the biblical texts by hand, before this all the letters ran together making a entire book look like one giant word. (19)

8TH CENTURY,THE FIRST TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE IN TO ENGLISH LANGUAGE: By Aldhelm, the Bishop of Sherborne, and Bede. A 9th century translation of the Bible in to English (Anglo-Saxon the dialect of its time) was made by Alfred. A tenth century translation in to English was made by Aelfric.(7) , By 1361 a translation of most of Scripture in the English dialect (Anglo-Norman) of its time had been executed.(3) This was twenty years before Wycliffe's 1381 translation (3)

This image is of the "Vespasian Psalter" a eighth century Catholic translation of the Book of Psalm in to English

8TH - 9TH CENTURY, THE USE OF THE FORM OF WRITING CALLED "MINUSCULE": As the breakdown of Oriental commerce took papyrus out of the western market in compelled to use of parchment, the factor of economy became increasingly potent. To get more words on page, the scribe had two use smaller letters and squeeze them close together. Some, to preserve their distinct shapes, were extended above the line, some below. The ultimate result was a form of writing called "Minuscule" little letters, with capitals inserted for emphasis. It is this system which is still use today. This grammatically was a major change from the "Majuscule" which consisted of only large letters as used by the Greeks, Romans, and Jews. (16)

This is a close up of a leaf from a Latin Bible it hand copied minuscule script about the year 1260 (AD.). This leaf originates from Northern France (probably Paris)

9TH CENTURY, THE FIRST SLAVIC TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE: The Catholic Saints Cyril and Methodius preached the Gospel to the Slavs in the second half of the ninth century, and St. Cyril, having formed an alphabet, made for them, in Old Ecclesiastical Slavic, or Bulgarian, a translation of the Bible from the Greek. Toward the close of the tenth century this version found its way into Russia with Christianity, and after the twelfth century it underwent many linguistic and textual changes. A complete Slav Bible after an ancient codex of the time of Waldimir (d. 1008) was published at Ostrog in 1581.(9)

1170 A.D. THE FIRST PARALLEL ENGLISH LANGUAGE BIBLE: Eadwine's Psalterium triplex, which contained the Latin version accompanied by Anglo-Norman and Anglo-Saxon renderings, appeared it became the basis of all subsequent Anglo-Norman versions.(3)

This leaf (circa 1260AD) has been written by hand in Latin, in black ink using miniature gothic texture on animal vellum. Rubricated initials and marginalia can be seen in red and blue. It was originally owned by William Foyle of Beeligh Abbey England.

THIRTEENTH CENTURY, THE FIRST DIVISION OF CHAPTERS: It was the British Catholic Arch-Bishop of Canterbury, St. Stephen Langton (died 1228), was first to tabulate scripture into Chapters, and we follow his arrangement to this day: some 1,163 chapters in the Old Testament, and only 260 in the New Testament." (4)

THIRTEENTH CENTURY, THE FIRST TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE IN TO SPANISH LANGUAGE: Under King Alfonso V of Spain. (7)

1230 A.D. THE FIRST CONCORDANCE: A concordance of the Latin Vulgate Bible was compiled by the Dominican Friar Hugo of Saint Cher. (5)

1300 A.D. THE FIRST TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE IN TO NORWEGIAN LANGUAGE: The earliest and most celebrated is that of Genesis-Kings in the so-called Stjórn ("Guidance"; i.e., of God) manuscript in the Old Norwegian language, probably to be dated about 1300. Swedish versions of the Pentateuch and of Acts have survived from the fourteenth century and a manuscript of Joshua-Judges by Nicholaus Ragnvaldi of Vadstena from c. 1500. The oldest Danish version covering Genesis-Kings derives from 1470. (11)

1454 A.D. THE FIRST PRINTED BIBLE: A Catholic named Gutenberg caused great excitement when in the fall of that year he exhibited sample pages at the Frankfurt trade fair. Gutenberg quickly sold out all of the 180 copies of his Latin Vulgate Bible even before the printing was finished. (6)

RccWarrior · Feb 4, 2007

Rubbish. Remember what St. Paul told Titus:
"AFTER A FIRST AND SECOND WARNING, BREAK OFF CONTACT WITH A HERETIC. REALIZING THAT SUCH A PERSON IS PERVERTED AND SINFUL AND STANDS SELF-CONDEMNED" (Titus 3:10) so much for your Tyndale, wycliff and Luther.

RccWarrior · Feb 4, 2007

Trento, excellent post. I myself have posted so much about the Reformers, it really is to no use..

RccWarrior · Feb 4, 2007

S Walch said:
And you crossed the line one page one with your comments concerning Wycliffe and Tynsdale - Two very fine Englishmen I might add, who did not try in anyway to change the Scriptures. The RC Church murdered and desecrated two innocent men, who cared deeply for their fellow countrymen's souls.

You also didn't bring up a single thing I didn't already know concerning Tynsdale and Wycliffe, but you did prove your own ignorance on the matter.

Also, your willingness to kill is quite disturbing.

My willingness to kill for christ?? I think not. Just like Peter almost did. Hmmm I guess we should question his love for his master.

S Walch · Feb 4, 2007

Trento said:
7TH CENTURY THE FIRST TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE IN TO FRENCH LANGUAGE: FrenchVersions of the Psalms and the Apocalypse, and a metrical rendering of the Book of Kings, appeared as early as the ....

http://www.catholicapologetics.net/apolo_21.htm

Thanks - I already had posted the link to this on page 1.

Still brings nothing against what I said.

Also, don't use such big fonts when quoting - most of us are able to read size 2 font.

My willingness to kill for christ?? I think not.

Which does indeed make it far more disturbing than I originally thought.

Rdr Iakovos · Feb 4, 2007

RccWarrior said:
My willingness to kill for christ?? I think not. Just like Peter almost did. Hmmm I guess we should question his love for his master.

He was corrected by his Master for his error in that matter. (John 18:11)

RccWarrior · Feb 4, 2007

S Walch said:
http://www.catholicapologetics.net/apolo_21.htm

Thanks - I already had posted the link to this on page 1.

Still brings nothing against what I said.

Also, don't use such big fonts when quoting - most of us are able to read size 2 font.

Which does indeed make it far more disturbing than I originally thought.

You can say all you want about me...Christ knows what is in my heart and that's all that matters. Too bad you aren't willing to lie your life down for Our Lord. Well I am. goodbye. My work is complete

RccWarrior · Feb 4, 2007

One more thing, we Catholics have given you so much history, fact and details, even quoting Scripture, dates etc...and you still turn the other way. Sad.

Rdr Iakovos · Feb 4, 2007

RccWarrior said:
You can say all you want about me...Christ knows what is in my heart and that's all that matters. Too bad you aren't willing to lie your life down for Our Lord. Well I am. goodbye. My work is complete

The martyrs who gave their life for the Lord did so in peace. They were not overcome by evil, but overcame evil with good. They did not raise their voice, nor quench a smoldering wick. They begged forgiveness for those who killed them. They were like Him, He who walks among the candlesticks.

Your view of martyrdom seems a bit jihadist to me. I find it deeply problematic and contradictory to the gospel and the epistles.
Lord have Mercy
James

RccWarrior · Feb 4, 2007

Rdr Iakovos said:
The martyrs who gave their life for the Lord did so in peace. They were not overcome by evil, but overcame evil with good. They did not raise their voice, nor quench a smoldering wick. They begged forgiveness for those who killed them. They were like Him, He who walks among the candlesticks.

Your view of martyrdom seems a bit jihadist to me. I find it deeply problematic and contradictory to the gospel and the epistles.
Lord have Mercy
James

You are quite ridiculous to even insult me as what my martydom would be. Only Jesus knows if I am to die this way. and knock it off on this Jihadist view, you sound like a fool!!! I would only die for the faith. I would not renounce it . Quite simple if you ask me. goodnight and Lord have mercy on your soul, that one day if someone knocks on your door, some radical Muslim and asks if you are christian, I would hope you would say yes. That is dying for the faith. Because believe me, this is what it may come down to.

S Walch · Feb 4, 2007

RccWarrior said:
Too bad you aren't willing to lie your life down for Our Lord.

I don't really think that's a conclusion you could come to just from my musings on this thread, but appears to be a flame against me in order to give me less credibility towards those who might be reading the thread who consider Martyrdom for the Messiah the greatests piniacle of the displaying of a persons faith.

But, as you say - What God thinks is what matters. I'm not on here for a popularity contest.

One more thing, we Catholics have given you so much history, fact and details, even quoting Scripture, dates etc...and you still turn the other way. Sad.

Actually, there's only been one "Catholic" who's done that on this thread, and that was Trento, but mainly from a site I'd already linked to on page 1.

Which, like you, he didn't give a link to showing where he'd got the information from

The martyrs who gave their life for the Lord did so in peace. They were not overcome by evil, but overcame evil with good. They did not raise their voice, nor quench a smoldering wick. They begged forgiveness for those who killed them. They were like Him, He who walks among the candlesticks.

Polycarp immediately comes to mind as someone who fits that description.

Rdr Iakovos · Feb 4, 2007

RccWarrior said:
You are quite ridiculous to even insult me as what my martydom would be. Only Jesus knows if I am to die this way. and knock it off on this Jihadist view, you sound like a fool!!! I would only die for the faith. I would not renounce it . Quite simple if you ask me. goodnight and Lord have mercy on your soul, that one day if someone knocks on your door, some radical Muslim and asks if you are christian, I would hope you would say yes. That is dying for the faith. Because believe me, this is what it may come down to.

It wasn't your willingness to die for Christ that I questioned. It was your stated willingness to KILL 'for Him' that I question and confront,

My willingness to kill for christ

S Walch · Feb 4, 2007

Obviously the muslim influence is worse than I thought.

Wouldn't you agree, Rdr?

Rdr Iakovos · Feb 4, 2007

I don't know who we blame for the departure that we all have made from the glorious gospel. In the first three centuries, no Christian would have supported any act of violence. As we became the dominant religion, we gave many justifications for violence and warfare. Many times, it was really quite necessary to take military action, specifically against Muslim unchecked aggression.

But when we fought Muslims, were we "killing for Christ?"
Hardly- we were fighting for survival. There is, imo, no killing that can be done for Christ, and very few that will be tolerated by those who love Chist. Even those will face judgement, may God be merciful.

Yes, I agree that Muslim influence shows up in the opinions of some Christians, from each of the three main traditions. We must be careful NOT to give God's stamp of approval, even if we deem war necessary.
James

RccWarrior · Feb 5, 2007

Rdr and S walsh, I know the truth of Catholicism really and truly hurts. But please, not one answer on this and other threads from non-Catholics is anything but intellectual, hadrly historical, and vague and hostile if anything. Remembr what John Henry Newman once said, who converted to Catholicism from Protestanism, "TO BE DEEP IN HISTORY, IS TO CEASE TO BE PROTESTANT". Soooo true.

S Walch · Feb 5, 2007

Rdr and S walsh, I know the truth of Catholicism really and truly hurts.

Firstly, It's S. Walch.

Second of all, the "truth of Catholicism" is that it's not all true.

Thirdly, there have been many historical posts by Protestants on this forum, and your pre-judgement of protestants, and EO members, is very showing in all of your posts.

You expect people to listen to your posts, yet don't wish to listen to there's in return, and then yell at us when we posts historical fact and then arrogantly claim that Roman Catholics, and Roman Catholics only post historical information, when it just isn't true, especially with regards to your posts.

All this thread was was an attack against Protestants, with no historical backing in your first post, or subsequent posts following, and your "learning" at whatever University or whatever you've been to in italy has turned you into an arrogant person, like it has done many people who seem to think that because they've been to a famous university/college, that everyone else is therefore a moron because they haven't been to one.

Very sad indeed, especially with your disturbing comment that you would quite happily kill anyone who is considered to have "changed the Word of God".

I do truly hope that that isn't what Roman Catholicism teaches.

Well, judging from other posts by some very well-respected Roman Catholics on this forum, I'm glad it isn't one.

Rdr Iakovos · Feb 5, 2007

RccWarrior said:
Rdr and S walsh, I know the truth of Catholicism really and truly hurts. But please, not one answer on this and other threads from non-Catholics is anything but intellectual, hadrly historical, and vague and hostile if anything. Remembr what John Henry Newman once said, who converted to Catholicism from Protestanism, "TO BE DEEP IN HISTORY, IS TO CEASE TO BE PROTESTANT". Soooo true.

Yes, well, being as I am not Protestant, I assume that you have directed that last comment to S Walch. I find much that I agree with in Catholicism, so that comment doesn't apply, either. In point of fact, I haven't contradicted Catholicism at all here, but rather, have confronted your statement "willing to kill for God." I find this statement on your behalf to be out of keeping with Catholic ethos, also. As I mentioned, all three traditions have taken God's name and done things in His Name which ae, imo, against the very nature of who He is and what He taught, so as I mentioned, my issue is not with Catholicism. Rather, it is with your statement. I hope that this is vey clear to you, and to my brethren Catholics who read this, who no doubt find issue with your comment as well.
James

Abundance of Vernacular Scriptures before Wycliff

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