Absolutely Free or Not?

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Your 'reasoning' of Jn 6:27 does not remotely capture the meaning of the verse. Christ did not mention anything about the heart, He said to LABOUR, to work for the meat that endures to everlasting life. The Son of man will not give eternal life unless one labours for it. This verse does not even remotely suggest that the Son will give eternal life to those that have "belief only" or "do nothing". Nowhere do the apostles say salvation is by "grace alone"; Heb 5:9.



I have never said salvation is earned/merited. See my example of the car. It was by my good grace I gave a car away for free. It cost one nothing before or after they get it. They simply meet the conditions on receiving the car for free. Namaan was not cleansed until after he dipped himself.

Heb 5:9 Christ is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him. Rom 6:16 you are the servant to whom you obey, either obey sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. 1 Pet 4:17 what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God? 2 Thes 1:8 taking vengeance upon them that obey not the gospel or our Lord. Rom 2:8 them that are contentious, who obey not the truth.

Since the CoC method of salvation is the same as the Roman church, why do you hate the RCC so much?

 

[jmacvols]

Since the CoC method of salvation is the same as the Roman church, why do you hate the RCC so much?

Where have I ever said I hate those of the RCC? Their method of salvation is different from what I believe. Their idea of baptism is different from what I believe, hence they baptize infants and I do not believe in that practice. There are many, many differences between them and me.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Where have I ever said I hate those of the RCC? Their method of salvation is different from what I believe. Their idea of baptism is different from what I believe, hence they baptize infants and I do not believe in that practice. There are many, many differences between them and me.

There may be some differences but both of you have to earn your salvation.

That is the bottom line. There are far more similarities than differences.

 

[jmacvols]

There may be some differences but both of you have to earn your salvation.

Again, you continue to repeat your lie about me. Apparently your problem is you have me confused with some other groups that believe they can earn their salvation.

That is the bottom line. There are far more similarities than differences.

I have debated with Catholics on another forum, and there is practically nothing we could agree on.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

There may be some differences but both of you have to earn your salvation.

Again, you continue to repeat your lie about me. Apparently your problem is you have me confused with some other groups that believe they can earn their salvation.

No, you keep stating that you have to earn your salvation all the time. Once again, sadly, you do not understand the consequences of your beliefs, and do not understand, nor have grasped the Gospel.

I have debated with Catholics on another forum, and there is practically nothing we could agree on.

I have already listed several things you agree with Rome on. Just because the animosity between the CoC and Rome prevents mutual agreement in confrontations does not mean that you do not hold many of the same beliefs.

Here are a few again:

1)Synergistic regeneration

2)Baptismal regeneration

3)Baptism by your formula is neccessary for salvation

4)Works complete the salvation formula

5)Semi-pelagian philosophy(ie-man is inherently able to seek God, understand the Gospel, believe the Gospel, repent and believe, which is to say that man is the generator of his own faith)

Would you like some more?

 

[jmacvols]

There may be some differences but both of you have to earn your salvation.



No, you keep stating that you have to earn your salvation all the time. Once again, sadly, you do not understand the consequences of your beliefs, and do not understand, nor have grasped the Gospel.

Show the post # where i said "one earns salvation". You will find posts of mine where I said one meets the conditions placed on salvation.

I have already listed several things you agree with Rome on. Just because the animosity between the CoC and Rome prevents mutual agreement in confrontations does not mean that you do not hold many of the same beliefs.

Here are a few again:

1)Synergistic regeneration

2)Baptismal regeneration

3)Baptism by your formula is neccessary for salvation

4)Works complete the salvation formula

5)Semi-pelagian philosophy(ie-man is inherently able to seek God, understand the Gospel, believe the Gospel, repent and believe, which is to say that man is the generator of his own faith)

Would you like some more?

No, Jesus made baptism necessary for salvation, it is His 'formula', not mine. No baptismal regeneration. Catholics, I think, look at baptism as a sacrament; that baptism can somehow remove sin apart from faith, hence their reason for baptizing infants. Belief & repentance must come before baptism, as is the order in Mk 16:16 & Acts 2:38. There is also the difference in sprinkling and submerge.

 

[JustinWindsor]

Show the post # where i said "one earns salvation". You will find posts of mine where I said one meets the conditions placed on salvation.

QUOTE]

Means the same thing.

 

[jmacvols]

Show the post # where i said "one earns salvation". You will find posts of mine where I said one meets the conditions placed on salvation.

QUOTE]

Means the same thing.

No, there is a difference between earning something and receiving something free by meeting the conditions. Again, I could give you a car for free, but to get the car for free, you have to come and get the keys and title. Your getting the keys and title is a work you perform in order to get the free car. After you get the keys and title, the car is yours; free. You paid nothing for it. It was free to you before you got it and it was free to you when you got it and was free to you after you got it. You cannot claim you worked for and earned the car, because I offered it to you free before you did anything.

 

[JustinWindsor]

No, there is a difference between earning something and receiving something free by meeting the conditions. Again, I could give you a car for free, but to get the car for free, you have to come and get the keys and title. Your getting the keys and title is a work you perform in order to get the free car. After you get the keys and title, the car is yours; free. You paid nothing for it. It was free to you before you got it and it was free to you when you got it and was free to you after you got it. You cannot claim you worked for and earned the car, because I offered it to you free before you did anything.

If you had to meet conditions...you didn't get it free. The good news is, God pours His love into you through the Person of the Holy Spirit when you are born again from above and are enabled to believe. BECAUSE you were unable to believe before. You were unable to see the kingdom of God. I've pointed you to John 3. Do you have a different interpretation you'd like to share?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

No, there is a difference between earning something and receiving something free by meeting the conditions. Again, I could give you a car for free, but to get the car for free, you have to come and get the keys and title. Your getting the keys and title is a work you perform in order to get the free car. After you get the keys and title, the car is yours; free. You paid nothing for it. It was free to you before you got it and it was free to you when you got it and was free to you after you got it. You cannot claim you worked for and earned the car, because I offered it to you free before you did anything.

It's a shame that you have to earn your way into God's Grace.

No matter how you slice it or dice it, you have been deceived by the false doctrines of the Cambellite CoC, false doctrines that render the Atonement of Christ of no effect, and one's that are leading you straight into the pit of hell.

You see, in your "keys" analogy, even though you have been indoctrinated to the point of being unable to see, ultimately salvation hinges on you reaching to take the keys. You are the master of your own fate, and earn salvation by reaching for the keys.

Sad, very sad, but then, Jesus said there will be those on Judgment Day that say, "Lord, Lord, didn't I.....didn't I...didn't I.....didn't I", all the emphasis on "I", just as you do, when the emphasis should be on "Christ". Jesus replies to them, "Away with you worker of iniquity, I never knew you."

You see, it's not that you know Jesus, the important thing is that Jesus knows you.

 

[HITR]

Salvation is the most costly free gift mankind has ever known.

Grace is absolutely free.
Discipleship is extremely costly.

One cannot truly experience salvation without grace and discipleship!

The reality is, a child of the living God must commit, surrender, die to self, be obedient, and persevere till the end. No mere mortal on earth has ever been, nor will ever be able, to do that without the grace of God. No grace of God, no way to do that. On the other hand, with the grace of God and His Spirit alive in a believer, the Spirit compels us, and we are, through His power, able to die to ourselves, be obedient, and persevere until the end. So it is not an "option," and we are left without excuse if we truly are indwelt with His Spirit.

Of course, it is essential that we always remember: we will fall short, of that there is no doubt. When we do allow our flesh to get in the way and we fall short of God's glory, we have an advocate, who is Jesus Christ. His mercies are made new every single day, PTL!

Since the only options available were limited to "strictly free" and "strictly costly" I chose to not respond to the poll, just the commentary.

In His care, HITR

 

[holdon]

Grace is absolutely free.

For us yes. But it cost Him everything....

 

[HITR]

For us yes. But it cost Him everything....

Well, of course it did. My mistake for thinking that this reality was a given among Christians holding to the Nicene Creed. **silly me**

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I just answered in context to the question about the cost to us, as it seemed that the OP was asking.

Thanks for pointing it out, holdon, that I might clarify it further...

Blessings, HITR

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Well, of course it did. My mistake for thinking that this reality was a given among Christians holding to the Nicene Creed. **silly me**

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I just answered in context to the question about the cost to us, as it seemed that the OP was asking.

Thanks for pointing it out, holdon, that I might clarify it further...

Blessings, HITR

Have you considered that there is a cost to those whom God saves?

Consider this, that those who trust Christ solely, it costs us our lives, our old lives of being slaves to sin.

Luke 9:24
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

 

[HITR]

Have you considered that there is a cost to those whom God saves?

Consider this, that those who trust Christ solely, it costs us our lives, our old lives of being slaves to sin.

Luke 9:24
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

Considered it? I said that discipleship is extremely costly, already. I fully believe it, and advocate it! That being said, however, I'd go a bit further than even you did here. Of course it costs us everything. Our old lives, our lives of beings slaves to sin. But it costs us so much more than that...things that are not sin. We absolutely must, if we are to totally give ourselves to Him, be of a willing heart and mind to give all of our possessions up as well, just as He sees fit. Now, while that may not mean that He wants us all in poverty (surely, I don't believe that is true), we all must be willing to be content without anything that we can truly call our own. Just as Jesus told the rich young ruler, sell all that you have, give it to the poor, pick up your cross and follow me! If any of us are to truly be disciples of our mighty Lord Jesus, we must be willing to do this.

For whatever we cling to so tightly that we are not willing to give it up for the good of the kingdom and those in need, then it does, to us, become sin!

So I'd say that, yes, it costs us our old lives of sin...I'd also say, it costs us soooo much more than that. It truly does cost us everything. Literally everything!

But afterall, nothing on this earth is really something that we can claim is wholy ours anyway...we just think it is on account of our finite understanding of possession. When push comes to shove, however, it is all vanity, and if we can't recognize that and be willing to let our grip on our things go (whether they be sin, or possessions, or even our very mode of thinking), then we're falling short. And on that note, praise God for the grace found at the cross of Christ Jesus.

In a nutshell, Jesus is not to just be our Savior. He is to be our Lord, fully...of all that we are, and of all that we have, and of all that we are to become!

All that being said, did you read the first post I made, where the little clip quoted by me came from? I find it is so easy for people to read something that's said, focus on one little clip, then others come in, read that one portion, and think they have some semblance of the person's view. Just for clarity, the original post that little clip came from is on this very page, and you might benefit from reading it in full context so you can see better what I was talking about in that. Then, if you would like to know a bit more about what I said then or now, I'd be happy to expound, really!

Hope that helps, and it's nice to meet ya, AwasC.

Many blessings, HITR

 

[jmacvols]

It's a shame that you have to earn your way into God's Grace.
No matter how you slice it or dice it, you have been deceived by the false doctrines of the Cambellite CoC, false doctrines that render the Atonement of Christ of no effect, and one's that are leading you straight into the pit of hell.
You see, in your "keys" analogy, even though you have been indoctrinated to the point of being unable to see, ultimately salvation hinges on you reaching to take the keys. You are the master of your own fate, and earn salvation by reaching for the keys.
Sad, very sad, but then, Jesus said there will be those on Judgment Day that say, "Lord, Lord, didn't I.....didn't I...didn't I.....didn't I", all the emphasis on "I", just as you do, when the emphasis should be on "Christ". Jesus replies to them, "Away with you worker of iniquity, I never knew you."
You see, it's not that you know Jesus, the important thing is that Jesus knows you.

Your false accusations continue, I have never the first time said one earns salvation. Has your indefensable position led you to nothing more than name calling and making false accusations? In Jn 6:27 Jesus said himself to labour for eternal life that He will Give. Can you not understand simple language? From my example of the car, the car is free, whether one wants it or not. Getting the keys and title meet the conditions for getting a free car. Being obedient meets the conditions on receiving free eternal life. Your bias against the truth is even evident in that you cannot completely quote Matt 7:21,22. Not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that DOETH (obedience) the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Whosoever hearth these sayings of mine and DOETH (obedience) them is liken unto a wise man, he that hearth and DOETH NOT (disobedience, doing nothing, Calvinism) is likened unto a foolish man.

Seek ye first the kingdom of God, Mt 6:33.

 

[jmacvols]

Have you considered that there is a cost to those whom God saves?
Consider this, that those who trust Christ solely, it costs us our lives, our old lives of being slaves to sin.
Luke 9:24
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

Oh please. If God selected you to be saved before the foundation of the world, what did that cost you? NOTHING! Sitting and doing nothing costs you nothing. If you're once 'selected', always 'selected' and you cannot lose your 'selection' what costs are you paying? What sin can you commit that would cause you to lose your 'selection'? If you wish to see the costs obedience can bring about, the kind of obedience that leads to salvation, read 2 Cor 11:23-28.

 

[Legacyforlife]

Jesus said nothing to Nicodemus about salvation, he told him about entering the Kingdom of God,,,,
a few verses later he discusses eternal life and the conditions are different, believe,,,dont confuse the two

Will you say that salvation is by grace through faith ALONE? Will the one who MUST endure to the end do so perfectly? Why didn't Jesus tell Nicodemas that endurance was part of the equation? Just by reading your post, I have no idea if you are Catholic, J. Witness, Morman. They would each say the same, that endurance is a MUST if we are to be delacred righteous. When would you say we are justified?

Douglas

 

[michaelmonfre]

I Believe Eternal Life Is Costly. Repentance And Faith Equals Conversion

Repentance Is Turning From Sin
Faith Is Turning To Christ

Repentance Is A Gift Of God

You Cannot Seperate Justification From Sanctification.

Impossible To Come To Christ As Savior But Not As Lord. This Is Antinomiasm. Why Come To Christ To Save Us From Our Sins If We Do Not Bow Down To His Lordship.

Does It Make Sense To Say: Jesus Save Me But I Will Not Follow You

The Holy Spirit Is The One Who Convicts Us Of Our Need Of Christ And Gives Us The Ability To Repent.

 

[michaelmonfre]

What Must I Do To Inherit Eternal Life?

You First Must Ask What Does It Mean To Believe In Christ?
What Does That Belief Consist Of?
What Does Conversion Consist Of?
I Have Already Stated Conversion Equals Faith And Repentance

It Would Be Good To Define Terms On Both Side Of The Debate And Defend By Scripture.

This Is More Of A Debate Between The Lordship View Of John Mcarthur, Michael Horton, Curtis Crenshaw Vs Charles Ryrie, Zane Hodges And Jody Dillow

I Have These Books