Absolute Predestination

[Dave L]

Where it is shown that those who do not pray, 'lead us not into temptation', are fed to the devil by God.

“The Lord hath made all things for himself: Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” (Proverbs 16:4)

 

[Dave L]

That statement in the confession is a logical contradiction. It's simply a way to sidestep the problem that this idea of predestination don't fit with what Scripture says. In other words it's a way to get around what the Bible clearly states.

Also, in your statement above you said, "Both extremes depend on God’s perfect knowledge. If God only energizes but doesn’t control all, he then must watch and learn what might or might not happen. And this would mean he is not all knowing as the bible says." That's only if you define "all things" to include that which doesn't exist. Something that doesn't exist is not a thing. That would be like me saying I know all of my children. Then years later having another child doesn't make my previous statement a lie or untrue. When I said, I know my children, it was true statement even though a child would be born later.

The whole idea of predestination spoken of in Christianity today isn't even a Biblical concept.

God is the creator. Nothing exists, not even our choices apart from creation. Secondary causes bring his will for us to pass in time through chain reactions (secondary causes).

 

[EmSw]

“The Lord hath made all things for himself: Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” (Proverbs 16:4)

Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

[Dave L]

Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

We still have a problem. How can God remain good if he doesn't punish sin?

 

[EmSw]

“The Lord hath made all things for himself: Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” (Proverbs 16:4)

Dave, that doesn't answer the question. I would like a verse which states those who do not pray 'lead us not into temptation' are fed to the devil by God.

 

[Dave L]

Dave, that doesn't answer the question. I would like a verse which states those who do not pray 'lead us not into temptation' are fed to the devil by God.

“Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.” (1 Timothy 1:20)

 

[EmSw]

We still have a problem. How can God remain good if he doesn't punish sin?

God is Good Itself. That will not change, ever! Even when man sins, God is Good Itself. Sin has its own punishment. The wages of sin is death; God doesn't need to punish sin, for sin will ultimately bring forth death.

 

[EmSw]

“Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.” (1 Timothy 1:20)

First of all, that was Paul's doing. Plus it seems you are saying those who do not pray 'lead us not into temptation' are blaspheming.

Now, I would like you to provide a verse which says man is qualified to deliver anyone unto Satan. That doesn't sound like Jesus' teachings at all. Why would Paul not turn the other cheek?

Matthew 5
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

 

[Dave L]

First of all, that was Paul's doing. Plus it seems you are saying those who do not pray 'lead us not into temptation' are blaspheming.

Now, I would like you to provide a verse which says man is qualified to deliver anyone unto Satan. That doesn't sound like Jesus' teachings at all. Why would Paul not turn the other cheek?

Matthew 5
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

“To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” (1 Corinthians 5:5)

 

[EmSw]

“To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” (1 Corinthians 5:5)

Salvation in the day of the Lord Jesus, is being delivered to Satan to destroy the flesh, right?

Were they not saved while living in the flesh?

Why aren't many people delivered to Satan today to destroy their flesh, so they may be saved later?

Jesus never said this was the way to salvation. Why would you believe someone can be delivered to Satan to be saved?

 

[Dave L]

Salvation in the day of the Lord Jesus, is being delivered to Satan to destroy the flesh, right?

Were they not saved while living in the flesh?

Why aren't many people delivered to Satan today to destroy their flesh, so they may be saved later?

Jesus never said this was the way to salvation. Why would you believe someone can be delivered to Satan to be saved?

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 4)

 

[JM]

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 4)

Yes sir.

“Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.” James 5:5

Dr. Gill comments: "when beasts were slain for some extraordinary entertainment, or for the solemn festivals and sacrifices the Jews, when they lived more deliciously than at other times; and then the sense is, that these rich men fared sumptuously every day; every day was a festival with them; they indulged themselves in intemperance; they ate and drank, not merely what was necessary, and satisfying, and cheering to nature, but to excess, and gorged, and filled themselves in an extravagant manner: the Syriac version, instead of “hearts”, reads “bodies” and one copy reads, “your flesh”: and the last phrase may be rendered, as it is in the same version, “as unto”, or “for the day of slaughter”; and so the Arabic version, “ye have nourished your hearts, as fattened for the day of slaughter”: like beasts that are fattened in order to be killed, so were they preparing and fitting up by their sins for"

“But thou, O LORD, knowest me: thou hast seen me, and tried mine heart toward thee: pull them out like sheep for the slaughter, and prepare them for the day of slaughter.” Jeremiah 12:3

Again, John Gill: "either out of the fold, or from a fat pasture; so fat sheep are plucked from the rest, in order to be killed: this shows that their riches, affluence, and plenty, served but to ripen them for ruin and destruction, and were like the fattening of sheep for slaughter; which the prophet, by this imprecation, suggests and foretells would be their case, as a righteous judgment upon them;"

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[YeshuaFan]

So you say you are a fan of Yeshua. Do you believe everything He said?

If a man enters life is he justified?

Matthew 19:17
but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Paul; states that all have sinned, save for jesus, do you believe him?

 

[YeshuaFan]

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 4)

I am also amazed that some here seem to actually hold that we can merit eternal life by acting good enough, by working our way into salvation!

 

[EmSw]

Paul; states that all have sinned, save for jesus, do you believe him?

Why did you not answer the question? If you don't believe Jesus, or are ashamed of what He said, you can tell us. Many don't believe what He said about entering life by keeping the commandments.

Sure, all have sinned, but what does that have to do with keeping His commandments to enter life?

 

[EmSw]

I am also amazed that some here seem to actually hold that we can merit eternal life by acting good enough, by working our way into salvation!

I would like to know where it says those who do evil will enter heaven.

 

[EmSw]

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 4)

Why don't you answer the questions? I'll enumerate them for you.

1.Salvation in the day of the Lord Jesus, is being delivered to Satan to destroy the flesh, right?

2. Were they not saved while living in the flesh?

3. Why aren't many people delivered to Satan today to destroy their flesh, so they may be saved later?

4. Jesus never said this was the way to salvation. Why would you believe someone can be delivered to Satan to be saved?

 

[ClementofA]

Easy.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,

The scriptures Calvinists seem to misrepresent against works, are actually against works of circumcision, feast days, Sabbaths and dietary laws, etc. that Judaizers wanted to enforce. Those were the "works" Paul spoke against. But obedience and repentance is a 'work' to be shunned according to the Calvinists that I know. That is the very antithesis of abiding in Christ.

Your description of Arminian beliefs do not fit me either, as I live my life believing God is in control.

If "work of faith" must mean "faith is a work", then shouldn't "work of God" mean "God is a work".

Faith "is a divine gift (Rom. 12:3) and comes by hearing the Word of God (Rom. 10:17)."
Faith | CARM.org

Salvation "is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works":

(Ephesians 2:8-9) - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast."

 

[ClementofA]

Free will does not exist....show one NT. verse that says it does exist.
I did not say a verse that says choose, or believe, I said one that says free will.

Lists of verses supporting free will:

Biblical proof of free will

"5 ARGUMENTS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF FREE WILL":

5 Arguments For The Existence Of Free Will

"What is the biblical basis for free will?":

What is the biblical basis for free will?

"freewill as taught in scripture":

Freewill as Taught in Scripture

 

[1stcenturylady]

Salvation "is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works":

(Ephesians 2:8-9) - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast."

The context of Ephesians 2:8-9 regarding "works" is circumcision. Keep reading.