Absolute Predestination

1stcenturylady · Oct 22, 2018

aiki said:
But it doesn't which was my point in criticizing compatibilism. There is no free will, ultimately, in soft or hard determinism.

I sure wish you guys spoke English! This is Greek to me!

Albion · Oct 22, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
By whose definition?

In 1960 a man joins the army, that army was predetermined 2 years before the man joined to go to Germany.

But he wasn't.

So was the man predetermined to go to Germany before he joined the army or after he joined the army.?

Neither, but it doesn't have anything to do with the theological concept we call predestination anyway.

ICONO'CLAST · Oct 22, 2018

HTacianas,

[Calvinistic predestination cannot be supported by the bible, simply because it does not allow God to change His mind, as the bible clearly describes Him doing. We may not know all the answers to every question, but we know that Calvin's ideas are wrong.]
The biblical God is perfect and never has to change His mind.

Pneuma3 · Oct 22, 2018

Albion said:
But he wasn't.

Neither, but it doesn't have anything to do with the theological concept we call predestination anyway.

You mean nothing to do with your understanding of predestination. but who say you are correct.

ICONO'CLAST · Oct 22, 2018

Dave L said:
You have free will. Why argue when we both say the same thing?

Free will does not exist....show one NT. verse that says it does exist.
I did not say a verse that says choose, or believe, I said one that says free will.

1stcenturylady · Oct 22, 2018

ICONO'CLAST said:
Free will does not exist....show one NT. verse that says it does exist.
I did not say a verse that says choose, or believe, I said one that says free will.

You mean like the rapture doesn't exist?

ICONO'CLAST · Oct 22, 2018

1am3laine said:
I talk about predestination in the link below.
The Secrets of The Gospel: Predestined and Free will

This link contains error after error, and does nothing to advance this discussion.We did not have pre-existence.

ICONO'CLAST · Oct 22, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
You mean like the rapture doesn't exist?

The English word rapture comes from a Latin word to be caught up.
The rapture is the last day.
No....I mean free will is a false philosophical construct created by fallen, rebellious man who desire to get out from under the rule and reign of God.

ICONO'CLAST · Oct 22, 2018

THE CANONS OF DORT
FIRST HEAD: DIVINE ELECTION AND REPROBATION
ARTICLES 1–18
ARTICLE 1. As all men have sinned in Adam, lie under the curse, and are deserving of eternal death, God would have done no injustice by leaving them all to perish and delivering them over to condemnation on account of sin, according to the words of the apostle: “that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.” (Rom 3:19). And: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” (Rom 3:23). And: “For the wages of sin is death.” (Rom 6:23).
ARTICLE 2. But in this the love of God was manifested, that He “sent his one and only Son into the world, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (1 John 4:9; John 3:16).
ARTICLE 3. And that men may be brought to believe, God mercifully sends the messengers of these most joyful tidings to whom He will and at what time He pleases; by whose ministry men are called to repentance and faith in Christ crucified. “How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent?” (Rom 10:14–15).
ARTICLE 4. The wrath of God abides upon those who believe not this gospel. But such as receive it and embrace Jesus the Savior by a true and living faith are by Him delivered from the wrath of God and from destruction, and have the gift of eternal life conferred upon them.
ARTICLE 5. The cause or guilt of this unbelief as well as of all other sins is no wise in God, but in man himself; whereas faith in Jesus Christ and salvation through Him is the free gift of God, as it is written: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith––and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” (Eph 2:8). Likewise: “For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him” (Phil 1:29).
ARTICLE 6. That some receive the gift of faith from God, and others do not receive it, proceeds from God’s eternal decree. “For known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world” (Acts 15:18). “who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will” (Eph 1:11). According to which decree He graciously softens the hearts of the elect, however obstinate, and inclines them to believe; while He leaves the non–elect in His just judgment to their own wickedness and obduracy. And herein is especially displayed the profound, the merciful, and at the same time the righteous discrimination between men equally involved in ruin; or that decree of election and reprobation, revealed in the Word of God, which, though men of perverse, impure, and unstable minds wrest it to their own destruction, yet to holy and pious souls affords unspeakable consolation

Blade · Oct 22, 2018

I must admit parts of this I am NO expert in. Fact it involves a GOD (oh song playing now "your majesty" Aaron Shust..praising the Father AWESOME). So.. as I see this.. this is not the way it has always been. Well we live in a fallen world. And a "time" bubble. I can see a few sides to this...you know the "ISM".

But who here KNOWS God? I mean how He even thinks? And do we apply OUR way of thinking and looking this to a GOD that is not a man nor thinks like one. He never changes.. yet asks us to come before Him.. sit and make your case and reason together. And at the book of beginnings.. did He have to ask "WHO said you were naked?". God was what TESTING them? God knew Satan came in took over something and spoke to Eve.. .STOP there.. it spoke and to Eve that was NORMAL.

And God had to ask "Adam where are you?" God that KNOWS all had to also ask "did you eat of the tree I told you not to"? Some time later says shall He not tell Abraham what HE is about to do? Just what was that? He came to see if the cries that had made to Him were true "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."

We can keep going. But how can a GOD that knows all not know this? For me this must be looked at also. The fact this is a fallen world. Just what part of SIN can this God look at see.. know? Seems when they Adam and Eve falled sinned.. just what did GOD know? And how did GOD miss Satan sneaking in? God made us in His image. I do not never had believed this GOD that knows all ..yet never reads my mind 24/7. I know when I sin.. that does something between us. If He said.. we can only serve one master.

WAY to many thoughts in all this. This is not the way it was when God made Adam and Eve. Sin caused something. Sin was know already known or foreseen by God. It was FOUND in him. All those fallen.. have some kind of rights. Cast down to earth? That earth was handed over to Satan by Adam and Eve...

There is just something in all this from the start I just cant get around. GOD.. what is GOD? A name you made up? Something someone told you.. something you read? " and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him". We have a awesome book..but do we KNOW the author?

This is a GOD that has no end no start. That needs no one. A God that NO SIN can enter heaven.. He has NOTHING what so ever to do with sin. And this SIN plays a HUGE part in all this. It was not GOD that foreseen the fall.. that before all was made had this plan to send Christ. That knew you before you were born..yet still asked "where are you, who told you, did you eat of the tree I told you not to". Again.. so God was what TESTING them? ALL of this revolves around a GOD that truth be told we know NOTHING about.

Way to much is SPECULATED. I believe He has seen a perfect path for me. Now Satan knew God in all his glory and power..seen it felt it. So.. no repenting there for them. They KNEW what they gave up. We never had that. God knows this. So lie got us in this and He made a free way out. That choice is mine alone not His. He has no power no say over my choice. He I believe tries very hard to help me see all the LIES alone they way. A way that was made before all this. Were talking about a GOD..

Man I dont like this haha...its like WOW we REALLY dont know .. our FATHER.. man I cant WAIT ..I really cant. This salvation alone.. we wont see the true picture of what it really is till this is all over

Sorry .. more confused then when I started lol

truefiction1 · Oct 22, 2018

FineLinen said:
Dear Dave: That is not the question (s).

1. Was the creation "made subject" to vanity willingly (by its own choice) or by Him who so subjected it?

2. Why?

3. What is the final outcome of the subjection of the ktisis?

Why do you capitalize "him", when "him" is a reference to Adam, the first man (not God) who subjected creation to vanity by his own choice to sin?

LightLoveHope · Oct 23, 2018

Dave L said:
We have many good conversations about predestination. But we seldom define the degree to which predestination affects the universe and all.

At the least it appears many think God imagined the universe before he created it. Let it run its own course without his intervention. And then created what he saw. Making it unchangeable and therefore predestined to happen just as he foresaw it.

Another view, the most extreme says: God created all, including every thought and act of every creature in the universe when he created the universe. That not a grain of sand on the furthest planet shifts position without God who also created its path and movements in the appointed time.

Both extremes depend on God’s perfect knowledge. If God only energizes but doesn’t control all, he then must watch and learn what might or might not happen. And this would mean he is not all knowing as the bible says.

Other theories emerge but the Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1; God's Eternal Decree defines biblical predestination this way.

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

So as I understand, we freely choose for the reasons God created with us, to base our choices on. As we meet up with them at the right time in life.

This resolves free will and divine sovereignty.

I have a problem. And it is our approach, the idea that there is such a thing as objectivity.
I believe this is our mistake from being born separate from the Lord and discovering our lives are largely out of our control.

The universe and life has only one reference point. God. We are always in some relationship to Him. He defines everything, and all morality turns to the laws and consequences He has built into our reality. Love itself focuses on Him and His will, what is good and perfect, what fails and is destructive.

He has built us with a choice, the ability to listen and respond to His calling or to reject, rebel and be destroyed by the very sin that dwells within us.

What is rational assent, what is emotional assent, what is choice and what is revelation? All are involved, so I just have learnt to bow the knee and let love flow. We appear to be addicted to definitions, boxes, safety, clarity, understanding, but Jesus defies all these things, by transcending them. We defend ourselves against too many things, rather than doing what we should do, we want to know the why, before we have the understanding to use it.

The closer you come to Jesus, the more His words speak, because they speak to the fruit of the Holy Spirit and a heart that is alive in Him.

Jesus is unbelievably simple. Those who deny Jesus's words do not know Him and are not His sheep. Those who cling to the world and sinful behaviour have no interest in the Kingdom of God. Those who love righteousness and forgiveness are predestined to shine like lights in the dark world, to turn night into day, with the simplicity of knowing they are loved by the King of Kings through the cross, and desire to serve others for His glory, Amen

DeaconDean · Oct 23, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
1 Thessalonians 1:3
remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,

Wrong!

"as your work of faith;
by which is meant not the principle of faith, for as such that is God's work, the product of his grace, and the effect of his almighty power; but the operative virtue and exercise of it under the influence of the grace of God: the Vulgate Latin, Arabic, and Ethiopic versions render it, "the work of your faith"; and so some copies, and the Syriac version, "the works of your faith"."

Source

1stcenturylady said:
2 Thessalonians 1:11
Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,

"and the work of faith with power;
faith is not only an operative grace, (See Gill on 1 Thessalonians 1:3) and is attended with good works; but it is a work itself, not of man's, for he cannot produce it in himself, nor exercise it of himself; but it is the work of God, of his operation which he works in his people; it has not only God for its object,"

Source

"Once we have believed in Jesus for eternal life, this does not mean that faith has no more place in the life of the believer. Just as we have received Jesus Christ Jesus, so also we must continue to walk with Him (Col 2:6). And how is it that we received Jesus? By faith. Future faith builds upon our former faith. Believing simple and elementary things allows us to later believe more difficult and hard things. This is what the Bible means when it talks about going from “faith to faith” (cf. Rom 1:17). But even this ongoing, sanctifying faith is not a work.

In order to move from believing one truth to believing another truth, it is true that we must act upon the faith we already have, and pursue the truth that follows. But even this sort of ongoing, sanctifying faith is not meritorious (Rom 4:16). It is simply faith at work; faith that energizes our life.

James has been widely misunderstood to be saying that an inactive faith is a non-existent faith, when in reality he is saying that an inactive faith still exists; it is simply unproductive. James does not want unproductive faith. He wants us to act upon our beliefs. James is not saying that faith is a work, nor is he saying the true faith always reveals itself through works. James and Paul are in full agreement: faith is the opposite of works (Rom 4:5), but faith energizes our works (Jas 2:14-26) and leads us on toward greater faith.

So no matter what stage of faith we are talking about, faith is not a work."

Source

A powerful illustration of faith is given by August Hopkins Strong: “All the power to move the cars is in the locomotive. None of the power is in the couplings. Yet the locomotive with all its power cannot move one car without the couplings.”

"The Spirit works faith in our hearts through the preaching of the gospel. Faith is not a condition, it’s an instrument. Faith does answer a command but faith isn’t a work. It’s an anti-work because it has no inherent goodness or righteousness or power."

Source

I'm so sorry. Survey says...

1stcenturylady said:
The scriptures Calvinists seem to misrepresent against works, are actually against works of circumcision, feast days, Sabbaths and dietary laws, etc. that Judaizers wanted to enforce. Those were the "works" Paul spoke against. But obedience and repentance is a 'work' to be shunned according to the Calvinists that I know. That is the very antithesis of abiding in Christ.

Your description of Arminian beliefs do not fit me either, as I live my life believing God is in control.

Wrong again.

Here again, you as well as others here, show your complete ignorance of what Calvinism teaches.

You want to mislead people by teaching them that once you are given faith, led to exercise by the Holy Spirit is all of a sudden becomes a "work" that you do. Which by way of scriptures, gives you bragging rights in heaven.

You are no better than any of the other "Anti-Calvinists" here. In the whole of Christianity, there are basically only three (3) types of beliefs: 1) Calvinist; 2) Arminian; 3) Semi-Pelagian

So which one are you in?

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean · Oct 23, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
by faith Noah built an ark

But he "found" grace FIRST!

And grace led him to exercise his faith.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Dave L · Oct 23, 2018

ICONO'CLAST said:
Free will does not exist....show one NT. verse that says it does exist.
I did not say a verse that says choose, or believe, I said one that says free will.

How broad do you suppose the topic of free will is? Why confine it to the topic of election which is obviously against "choosing salvation"? And not consider the movement of every created being along with the universe? God not only created us, he created the life each would live.

Dave L · Oct 23, 2018

Dave L said:
You have free will. Why argue when we both say the same thing?

You are rejecting the wisdom of the Westminster Confession by laughing?

Dave L · Oct 23, 2018

aiki said:
But it doesn't which was my point in criticizing compatibilism. There is no free will, ultimately, in soft or hard determinism.

You are limiting free will to the doctrine of election. But it is much broader than that. It includes the choices and movements of all creatures. God works all things [including people's free choices] after the council of his will.

Dave L · Oct 23, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
I don't see what you are seeing in chapter 3...

In chapter 5 those are not Christians. They do not inherit the Kingdom of God. That is not to say they weren't once upon a time. But if they die in idolatry or witchcraft, to name just two, they've chosen a new master and will burn with him.

Why would Paul say this, if the flesh was perfectly sinless along with your born-again spirit?
“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” (Galatians 5:16)

truefiction1 · Oct 23, 2018

DeaconDean said:
Wrong!

"as your work of faith;
by which is meant not the principle of faith, for as such that is God's work, the product of his grace, and the effect of his almighty power; but the operative virtue and exercise of it under the influence of the grace of God: the Vulgate Latin, Arabic, and Ethiopic versions render it, "the work of your faith"; and so some copies, and the Syriac version, "the works of your faith"."

Source

"and the work of faith with power;
faith is not only an operative grace, (See Gill on 1 Thessalonians 1:3) and is attended with good works; but it is a work itself, not of man's, for he cannot produce it in himself, nor exercise it of himself; but it is the work of God, of his operation which he works in his people; it has not only God for its object,"

Source

"Once we have believed in Jesus for eternal life, this does not mean that faith has no more place in the life of the believer. Just as we have received Jesus Christ Jesus, so also we must continue to walk with Him (Col 2:6). And how is it that we received Jesus? By faith. Future faith builds upon our former faith. Believing simple and elementary things allows us to later believe more difficult and hard things. This is what the Bible means when it talks about going from “faith to faith” (cf. Rom 1:17). But even this ongoing, sanctifying faith is not a work.

In order to move from believing one truth to believing another truth, it is true that we must act upon the faith we already have, and pursue the truth that follows. But even this sort of ongoing, sanctifying faith is not meritorious (Rom 4:16). It is simply faith at work; faith that energizes our life.

James has been widely misunderstood to be saying that an inactive faith is a non-existent faith, when in reality he is saying that an inactive faith still exists; it is simply unproductive. James does not want unproductive faith. He wants us to act upon our beliefs. James is not saying that faith is a work, nor is he saying the true faith always reveals itself through works. James and Paul are in full agreement: faith is the opposite of works (Rom 4:5), but faith energizes our works (Jas 2:14-26) and leads us on toward greater faith.

So no matter what stage of faith we are talking about, faith is not a work."

Source

A powerful illustration of faith is given by August Hopkins Strong: “All the power to move the cars is in the locomotive. None of the power is in the couplings. Yet the locomotive with all its power cannot move one car without the couplings.”

"The Spirit works faith in our hearts through the preaching of the gospel. Faith is not a condition, it’s an instrument. Faith does answer a command but faith isn’t a work. It’s an anti-work because it has no inherent goodness or righteousness or power."

Source

I'm so sorry. Survey says...

Wrong again.

Here again, you as well as others here, show your complete ignorance of what Calvinism teaches.

You want to mislead people by teaching them that once you are given faith, led to exercise by the Holy Spirit is all of a sudden becomes a "work" that you do. Which by way of scriptures, gives you bragging rights in heaven.

You are no better than any of the other "Anti-Calvinists" here. In the whole of Christianity, there are basically only three (3) types of beliefs: 1) Calvinist; 2) Arminian; 3) Semi-Pelagian

So which one are you in?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Or there is the Orthodox Way, which is simply termed "Orthodox", although sometimes described by the term "synergeia".

ICONO'CLAST · Oct 23, 2018

Dave L said:
How broad do you suppose the topic of free will is? Why confine it to the topic of election which is obviously against "choosing salvation"? And not consider the movement of every created being along with the universe? God not only created us, he created the life each would live.

Free will does not exist. Why do you make it one of your presuppositions? It is a philosophical theory with no basis in fact, no scriptural basis at all.

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