About Sabbath

tall73 · Apr 25, 2021

BobRyan said:
why ? because "Bible scholarship on BOTH sides of each of those topics are in full agreement"???
(obviously not).

There are more than two sides, but you know that. Stating that all the people on the side of Sunday sacredness agree does not say anything about those who don't hold that position.

clearly You are still no following the point. How does that even happen!

And to keep doing that "this is a silly argument for anyone to make".

No, it really is a silly argument for you to say not to go by human tradition and then make your argument on what various groups have said.

prodromos · Apr 25, 2021

BobRyan said:
1. Even The Orthodox church appears to endorse all ten - of the TEN commandments -
2. In Matt 22 Christ points to those two commands in the Law of Moses as being bedrock foundation for "all the Law and the Prophets"

Deut 6:5 - Love God with all your heart
Lev 19:18 - Love your neighbor as yourself.

Orthodox church

Notice that even the Orthodox church confesses "the TEN" -- not merely "NINE" and affirms that they are not "just for Jews" in it's explicit statement above.

We honour it by not fasting on the Sabbath, which I quoted from the catechism you had linked to earlier. I don't know what point you think you are making but you are not doing it very well.

tall73 · Apr 25, 2021

prodromos said:
We honour it by not fasting on the Sabbath, which I quoted from the catechism you had linked to earlier. I don't know what point you think you are making but you are not doing it very well.

Can't you tell? He is saying go with what the most churches believe.

It has to be the worst argument for an Adventist ever. It is the opposite of everything they normally want folks to do.

BobRyan · Apr 25, 2021

John Mullally said:
The early Gentile conversions caught even Peter by surprise. Per the early portions of Acts 15, there was division as to whether the new Gentile Christians had to effectively become Jews - would they be required to follow some or all the prescribed Jewish Ceremonial laws.

Acts 13 shows that clearly non-Christian Jews had uncircumcised "proselytes" -- the "God fearers"' in their congregations. The "Christian" twist on this comes in the form of Christian Jews ADDING their own man-made-idea that the gentiles would have to become Jews - not just Christians - "to be saved".

The reason for the big difference in the way that Christian-Jews viewed it vs non-Christian-Jews is that the gentile mix in the congregations was being greatly slanted in the direction of a "gentile congregation" -- which is not something that non-Christian-Jews had to deal with. The non-Christian form of Judaism was not nearly as successful in evangelizing gentiles as the Christian form of true Bible religion that God was blessing with Pentecostal spiritual gifts and special guidance by God.

The Jerusalem Council addressed this topic. The resulting letter to the Gentiles (Acts 15:23-29) where they explicitly focus on the issue of whether gentiles had to become Jews -- which is the full context of what the loaded idea of being circumcised involved as Gal 5:2-4 points out.

No Bible statement in all of scripture required such a thing - the Christian-Jews were simply making stuff up in a desperate attempt to keep their congregations "Jewish" in spite of the huge influx of gentile members

BobRyan · Apr 25, 2021

prodromos said:
We honour it by not fasting on the Sabbath, which I quoted from the catechism you had linked to earlier. I don't know what point you think you are making but you are not doing it very well.

I am making the point that "THE TEN" are being affirmed by the Orthodox Church not simply "the nine" and what is more -- if you take time to actually read the quote it asks a very specific question about how to OBEY/comply with the 4th commandment - and the answer is NOT 'fasting'.

Did you even read it?? ... nvm - the bottom part of the quote is missing... will fix it.

it makes the post too long so it wont save it - I added a link to post #23 for it so first page and second page point to it -

says this -

Orthodox church

From The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church • Pravoslavieto.com

65. Where may we find the elements of the doctrine of charity?

In the Ten Commandments of the Law of God.

490. You said that these Commandments were given to the people of Israel: must we, then, also walk by them?

We must: for they are in substance the same law which, in the words of St. Paul, has been written in the hearts of all men, that all should walk by it.

491. Did Jesus Christ teach men to walk by the Ten Commandments?

He bade men, if they would attain to everlasting life, to keep the Commandments and taught us to understand and fulfill them more perfectly than had been done before he came. Matt xix. 17, and v.

On the Division of the Commandments into Two Tables.

492. What means the division of the Ten Commandments into two tables?

This: that they contain two kinds of love--love to God, and love to our neighbor; and prescribe two corresponding kinds of duties.

489. Which are the chief and general commandments of this law?

The following ten, which were written on two tables of stone:

1. I am the Lord thy God: thou shalt have none other gods beside me.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thyself any graven image, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters under the earth: thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them.

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy: six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the Sabbath to the Lord thy God.

5. Honor thy father and thy mother, that it may be well with thee, and that thy days may be long upon the earth.

6. Thou shalt not kill.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, nor his land, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any of his cattle, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's. Exod. xx. 1-17; Deut. v. 6-21.

490. You said that these Commandments were given to the people of Israel: must we, then, also walk by them?

We must: for they are in substance the same law which, in the words of St. Paul, has been written in the hearts of all men, that all should walk by it.

491. Did Jesus Christ teach men to walk by the Ten Commandments?

He bade men, if they would attain to everlasting life, to keep the Commandments and taught us to understand and fulfill them more perfectly than had been done before he came. Matt xix. 17, and v.

On the Division of the Commandments into Two Tables.

492. What means the division of the Ten Commandments into two tables?

This: that they contain two kinds of love--love to God, and love to our neighbor; and prescribe two corresponding kinds of duties." - The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church â€¢ Pravoslavieto.com

"537. Is the Sabbath kept in the Christian Church?
It is not kept, strictly speaking, as a holy day ...

538. How, then, does the Christian Church obey the fourth commandment?

She still to every six days keeps a seventh, only not the last of the seven days, which is the Sabbath, but the first day in every week ... " - The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church â€¢ Pravoslavieto.com

notice carefully - whether it says "keep the fourth commandment by fasting on Saturday and that's it" or "obeying it on the first day of the week"

538. How, then, does the Christian Church obey the fourth commandment?

She still to every six days keeps a seventh, only not the last of the seven days, which is the Sabbath, but the first day in every week ... " - The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church â€¢ Pravoslavieto.com

================

however 99.999% of the debate here is that there is no such thing as a 4th commandment "to obey" in the first place.

tall73 said:
Can't you tell? He is saying go with what the most churches believe.

by contrast -- paying attention to the details we would have

"can't you tell - he is saying notice the details in your own Orthodox statement about - obeying the fourth Commandment -- notice how all the anti-Sabbath debate here is about NO fourth commandment left to obey no matter how you are doing it"

But that's "the details".

LoveGodsWord · Apr 25, 2021

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ It is context to what you were trying to argue that God's 4th commandment is to be abolished. Yet it shows it is talking about the ceremonial "shadow sabbaths" in the Feast days that is the context to the discussion and also subject matter that is being discussed.

EZEKIEL 45:17 [17] And it shall be the prince's part to give BURNT OFFERINGS, and MEAT OFFERINGS, and DRINK OFFERINGS, in the FEASTS, and in the NEW MOONS, and in the SABBATHS, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

The context you left out shows that the topic of discussion in Ezekiel is to the annual ceremonial sabbaths in the Feast days. They are not references to God's 4th commandment being abolished.

As posted earlier the annual Feasts went longer than 7 days. What your not considering is that God's 4th commandment is also outside of the annual Feast days and not linked to them but simply continue every seventh day of the week *Exodus 20:8-11.

Your response here.

tall73 said:
The bold text shows you it includes the weekly.
Eze 46:1 “Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
Eze 46:2 The prince shall enter by the vestibule of the gate from outside, and shall take his stand by the post of the gate. The priests shall offer his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate. Then he shall go out, but the gate shall not be shut until evening.
Eze 46:3 The people of the land shall bow down at the entrance of that gate before the LORD on the Sabbaths and on the new moons.
Eze 46:4 The burnt offering that the prince offers to the LORD on the Sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish.

Your response here only shows you did not read or understand what you were quoting from. Please take you time. What do you think my post you were quoting from was saying?

LoveGodsWord · Apr 25, 2021

tall73 said:
I am trying to say you have not addressed the lack of the article. Are you going to?

Why I do not need to as it does not change the meaning of σαββατίζω, sabbatismos which simply means a keeping of the Sabbath through resting. Context of course is to Hebrews 4:1-5 already discussed.

Already provided in more detail in post # 279 linked.

GREEK LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, Abbott-Smith - G4520
*† σαββατισμός, - οῦ, ὁ
(< σαββατίζω, to keep the sabbath, Exod 16:30, al.),
a keeping sabbath, a sabbath rest: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb 4:9.

It really is not all that hard when considering the contexts from Hebrews 4:1-5.

(see post # 279 linked).

BobRyan · Apr 25, 2021

tall73 said:
Then immediately recant your positions on hell, death, the sanctuary, etc.

why ? because "Bible scholarship on BOTH sides of each of those topics are in full agreement"???
(obviously not).

clearly You are still not following the point. How does that even happen! ??

You "appear" to be trying to spin the table around to present the same argument back - but in doing so you only show that you did not get the point to start with in order to turn it back around.

If you are saying what you appear be saying then ... "I find a certain paucity of logic in your statement"

And to keep doing that (failing to get the point of the argument) "is a silly argument for anyone to make".[/QUOTE]

tall73 said:
There are more than two sides,

Well not when it comes to the majority of major Christian denominations debating the Sabbath some pro-Bible Sabbath and some in favor of Sunday.

No, it really is a silly argument for you to say not to go by human tradition and then make your argument on what various groups have said.

Which I never do - rather I point out that Bible scholarship on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate in almost all major Christian denominations agree on these incredibly simple and obvious Bible details even though one side affirms the 7th day Saturday Sabbath of the Bible and the other does not.

Baptist Confession of Faith - sectn 19.
Westminster Confession of Faith - sectn 19
D.L. Moody on the 4th commandment.
Dies Domini (Pope John Paul II)
R.C Sproul
C.H. Spurgeon
Eastern Orhtodox
Catholic Church
Martin Luther
etc.

As for "tradition"....

“The Faith Explained: by Leo Trese -- The Catholic commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican II

This RC document explains that keeping Sunday is in obedience to the Sabbath commandment. Catholics attend "in obedience to the third commandment of God 'remember thou keep holy the Lord's day'" ((from "The Faith Explained" pg 241.))

( "The Faith Explained" - page 242-243.)
"we know that in the Old Testament it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord’s Day. That was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day..the early Christian church determined as the Lord’s Day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...the reason for changing the Lord’s Day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord’s Day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord’s Day on the say-so of the catholic church.

Amazon ad for "The Faith Explained"

The Faith Explained is an all-in-one handbook to help you understand, explain, and defend the great truths of the Catholic Faith. In brief and readable chapters, it explains the purpose of human existence, God and His perfections, the creation and fall of man, the Incarnation, the Redemption, the sacraments, sacramentals, prayer, the importance of the Bible, and much more. Perfect for RCIA classes, this book is also a magnificent refresher course on the Faith for Catholics and an illuminating resource for non-Catholics with questions about the Church.

tall73 · Apr 25, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Your response here.

Your response here only shows you did not read or understand what you were quoting from. Please take you time. What do you think my post you were quoting from was saying?

It shows for anyone reading it is one of the appointed times.

You are simply trying to dodge that by saying:

The context you left out shows that the topic of discussion in Ezekiel is to the annual ceremonial sabbaths in the Feast days. They are not references to God's 4th commandment being abolished.

As posted earlier the annual Feasts went longer than 7 days. What your not considering is that God's 4th commandment is also outside of the annual Feast days and not linked to them but simply continue every seventh day of the week *Exodus 20:8-11.

It says all the appointed times, and then it lists them out, including the seventh-day Sabbath. The appointed times are not just yearly. The new moon is included, the weekly Sabbath is included, etc.

tall73 · Apr 25, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Why I do not need to as it does not change the meaning of σαββατίζω, sabbatismos which simply means a keeping of the Sabbath through resting. Context of course is to Hebrews 4:1-5 already discussed.

Already provided in more detail in post # 279 linked.

GREEK LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, Abbott-Smith - G4520
*† σαββατισμός, - οῦ, ὁ
(< σαββατίζω, to keep the sabbath, Exod 16:30, al.),
a keeping sabbath, a sabbath rest: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb 4:9.

It really is not all that hard when considering the contexts from Hebrews 4:1-5.

(see post # 279 linked).

You clearly do need to. You don't appear to know what the lack of the article means. Especially when your source references vs. 9 with the indefinite.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 25, 2021

tall73 said:
It shows for anyone reading it is one of the appointed times.

You are simply trying to dodge that by saying:

The context you left out shows that the topic of discussion in Ezekiel is to the annual ceremonial sabbaths in the Feast days. They are not references to God's 4th commandment being abolished.

As posted earlier the annual Feasts went longer than 7 days. What your not considering is that God's 4th commandment is also outside of the annual Feast days and not linked to them but simply continue every seventh day of the week *Exodus 20:8-11.

It says all the appointed times, and then it lists them out, including the seventh-day Sabbath. The appointed times are not just yearly. The new moon is included, the weekly Sabbath is included, etc.

Repetition we have already discussed. God's 4th commandment is out side of the annual Feast days and the ceremonial sabbaths and is every week and a part of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 25, 2021

tall73 said:
You clearly do need to. You don't appear to know what the lack of the article means. Especially when your source references vs. 9 with the indefinite.

Context determines reference here (see Hebrews 4:1-5). Perhaps you can tell us how this changes the meaning of σαββατίζω, sabbatismos? - It doesn't

GREEK LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, Abbott-Smith - G4520
*† σαββατισμός, - οῦ, ὁ
(< σαββατίζω, to keep the sabbath, Exod 16:30, al.),
a keeping sabbath, a sabbath rest: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb 4:9.

Already provided in more detail in post # 279 linked.

tall73 · Apr 25, 2021

BobRyan said:
Well not when it comes to the majority of major Christian denominations debating the Sabbath some pro-Bible Sabbath and some in favor of Sunday.

There you go again. Nose counting, which would doom Adventists on essentially all of their favorite doctrines.

Now I said there are more than two views. And your argument does nothing for my view. And it does nothing for those who hold that apostolic churches go by tradition, because they know what the rest of that chain leads to--Sunday.

Which I never do - rather I point out that Bible scholarship on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate in almost all major Christian denominations agree on these incredibly simple and obvious Bible details even though one side affirms the 7th day Saturday Sabbath of the Bible and the other does not.

Of course you do. You are saying this number of scholars say this. Well, so much basically all Adventist doctrines.

I'll tell you what, please do keep using this argument. When you do folks will just realize that nose counting doesn't help you.

BobRyan · Apr 25, 2021

tall73 said:
That was a listing of the appointed times, with the weekly Sabbath, and parallel to Colossians 2. .

Col 2 only mentions "shadow Sabbaths" that point to the sacrifice of Christ. A list we find in Lev 23 for the annual feast Sabbaths.

Col 2 does not condemn eating.
Col 2 does not condemn drinking
Col 2 does not condemn observance of the shadow Sabbaths

For the text that ends animal sacrifice and offerings you have to go to Heb 10:4-12

tall73 · Apr 25, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Context determines reference here (see Hebrews 4:1-5). Perhaps you can tell us how this changes the meaning of σαββατίζω, sabbatismos? - It doesn't

GREEK LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, Abbott-Smith - G4520
*† σαββατισμός, - οῦ, ὁ
(< σαββατίζω, to keep the sabbath, Exod 16:30, al.),
a keeping sabbath, a sabbath rest: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb 4:9.

Already provided in more detail in post # 279 linked.

Of course it does. Your own source agrees with me, and you don't see it because you don't know Greek.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 25, 2021

tall73 said:
Of course it does. Your own source agrees with me, and you don't see it because you don't know Greek.

Your post here though is a bit funny I provided the Greek texts and the literal Greek word meanings and stated that context determines reference here (see Hebrews 4:1-5). I then asked you to tell us how this changes the meaning of σαββατίζω, sabbatismos? - It doesn't

...............

GREEK LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, Abbott-Smith - G4520
*† σαββατισμός, - οῦ, ὁ
(< σαββατίζω, to keep the sabbath, Exod 16:30, al.),
a keeping sabbath, a sabbath rest: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb 4:9.

Already provided in more detail in post # 279 linked.

...............

All you have told me here is I do not know Greek when I have provided it and my references agree with you without showing how,

tall73 · Apr 25, 2021

BobRyan said:
Col 2 only mentions "shadow Sabbaths" that point to the sacrifice of Christ. A list we find in Lev 23 for the annual feast Sabbaths.

Col 2 does not condemn eating.
Col 2 does not condemn drinking
Col 2 does not condemn observance of the shadow Sabbaths

For the text that ends animal sacrifice and offerings you have to go to Heb 10:4-12

It is a listing of all the appointed times, which includes the Sabbath, and is seen by the parallel text in Ezekiel 45.

And the judging part doesn't help you. It calls all of them shadows, which is why judging is pointless.

tall73 · Apr 25, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Oh ok show us then how my own sources agree with you and that they do not mean a keeping of the Sabbath by resting Mr Greek Expert.

a sabbath rest: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb 4:9.

BobRyan · Apr 25, 2021

tall73 said:
There you go again. Nose counting,

There I go again pointing out that bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate (those who keep the Bible 7th day Sabbath vs those who keep Sunday) in almost all Christian denominations admit to theses key Bible details about the TEN Commandments.

On the VERY points where you try to re-imagine it as "JUST SDAs".

On the easy most obvious Bible details where BOTH sides agree.

tall73 said:
And your argument does nothing for my view.

I will admit - my point is not doing anything at all "FOR" your view - I don't see how it helps your view at all.

tall73 said:
And it does nothing for those who hold that apostolic churches go by tradition, because they know what the rest of that chain leads to--Sunday.

You need to read this thread more, because you are just repeating my opening statement on page 1.

BobRyan said:
The "Sabbath" doctrine has two simple components.

1. All TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral Law of God that defines what sin IS AND is applicable to all mankind even in the NT.
2. The Sabbath commandment cannot be "edited" by Tradition.

almost ALL of the back-and-forth arguments you will see on this thread are on the easy-simple-part 1 where Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic, in almost all major denomination - AGREE. (and yet people opposing the Sabbath here - do not even agree with the majority of the Bible Scholarship on their own side of Sunday-keeping vs Sabbath topic !!)

I have a really easy solution for you - take a look at where BOTH sides agree.

Baptist Confession of Faith - sectn 19.
Westminster Confession of Faith - sectn 19
D.L. Moody on the 4th commandment.
Dies Domini (Pope John Paul II)
R.C Sproul
C.H. Spurgeon
Eastern Orhtodox
Catholic Church
Martin Luther
etc.

ALL of them agree with the SDA church and other Sabbath keeping groups -- on these key points.

1. All TEN of the TEN commandments were given as the moral law of God in Eden - to mankind
2. All TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the Law of God that is written on the heart under the new Covenant.
3. The Sabbath commandment as given by God in scripture - points to Saturday - not Sunday.
4. The TEN Commandments are not in opposition to grace or the Gospel
5. all of mankind are still to this very day held to accountability by the TEN
6. The TEN are not - "just for Jews".
...

LoveGodsWord · Apr 25, 2021

tall73 said:
a sabbath rest: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb 4:9.

Once again if you were reading my posts to you I have never denied that the word does not mean Sabbath rest as I have already stated many times that it does. I have only stated it also means a keeping of the Sabbath through resting which is the literal meaning showing that your only telling half the story.

The part your ignoring below from the same reference.

*† σαββατισμός, - οῦ, ὁ
(< σαββατίζω, to keep the sabbath, Exod 16:30, al.),
a keeping sabbath

The next part you quoted is how it is kept through resting.

a sabbath rest: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb 4:9.

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