About hell

[it'sme]

To the 1st Century Jew, the metaphor of Gehenna spoke of purification in the afterlife. Even today, traditional Jews mourn the dead for 11 months, but no longer, because to mourn a loved one more than 11 months is to say the person was especially wicked and needed more than normal purification before rising to Ga Eden (Paradise).

This is one of the reasons Jesus cast off the Jews. They were teaching the doctrines of men. one of them was the after life.

Another passage that speaks of conscious punishment in the afterlife is Luke's record of Jesus speaking of the rich man and Lazarus. And though Luke uses the word "Hades" to speak of the location of the rich man's torment (16:23) as being "Hades", it's likely that Jesus actually spoke of Gehenna and Luke translated what Jesus said, Gehenna, as Hades because it was the best Greek word to speak of the realm of the dead. And it's significant to note that the word "torment", basanos, is used which is related to the purification process of metal and the use of a touch-stone.

Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.
What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

This is the same today.

 

[ShermanN]

This is one of the reasons Jesus cast off the Jews. They were teaching the doctrines of men. one of them was the after life.

Yes Jesus opposed the doctrines of men, both the errant teachings of the Pharisees and the errant teachings of the Saducees. And a primary way that He did this was through directly teaching against the specific doctrines that were incorrect, and He did so in the language of the day.

As noted before, the Saducees did not believe in the after life and one of the arguments they used to counter the Pharisees' belief in the after life was the argument concerning 7 brothers who because of the Leverate marriage custom/law each sequentially married the same woman after their older brother died without having had children with that woman. The Saducees argued that there must not be a ressurection and after life because such relationships would continue and be too confusing. "Whose wife would she be?"

Jesus countered their disbelief in the afterlife by telling them that they did not know or understand scripture, nor the power of God. When scripture says repeatedly that God is the God of Abraham and Isaac, it not only recognizes that God exists, but that Abraham and Isaac too currently exist though they are physically dead; thus there is life after death. So when it came to the argument between the Pharisees and the Saducees concerning life after death, Jesus specifically affirmed that the Pharisees on this issue were correct; there is life after death, continued existance.

Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith?

Actually, the phrase "Abraham's bosom" was an idiomatic phrase that was simply another Jewish way of referencing Ga Eden, otherwise called Paradise, what we would call Heaven. As with other idiomatic phrases it is not meant to be taken literally. Idiomatic phrases are common to all languages and cultures. A common idiomatic phrase in the South (itself an idiomatic phrase that refereces traditional, primarily rural, culture in the South-Eastern continental United States) is "burn rubber", a phrase that doesn't literally mean "burn rubber" but to accelerate swiftly. So your argument Abraham's bosom not making sense, well, doesn't make sense.

Concerning whether the story of the rich man and Lazarus was a parable or a true story is, well, not an issue for either way it was intended to communicate truth, it's primary message being that God is just and will just judge us in the afterlife and will take into account not only the suffering that we've had to endure in this life, but what we did with the blessings we've recieved. However, the parable/story also affirms that the then current predominant Jewish belief (Saducees were a minority) that there is existance after life is true. In this parable/story, Jesus assumes the belief that there is conscious life after death, and affirms that there is both comfort and pain.

Concerning the story/parable contradicting other "parts of the Bible", such is a common response that people, myself included, have when a specific scripture evidently contradicts our assumed systematic theology. We can either choose to quickly disregard or explain away the scripture that contradicts our systematic theology, or we can study it indepth to see if maybe our systematic theology is in error in some way. Of course, the apparent message or assumed truths of the story/parable of the rich man and Lazarus does not contradict my belief that there is life after death for all of humanity.

Concerning water evaporating in Gehenna/Hades, as noted before, Gehenna was a then common theological metaphor that referenced the purification of judgment in the after life. The Jews would have understood the meaning, boundaries, and intention of this metaphor. Scripture is full of such metaphorical language and should be interpreted appropriately. To disregard such metaphorical language is to disrespect and mishandle scripture, I believe.

But the Bible does not contradict itself.
What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

This is the same today.

Concerning Jesus' intended audience, the closest specific group mentioned in the literary context was Luke 18:15, not vs. 14. And vs. 15 mentions the disciples; thus Jesus was not directly opposing the Pharisees. Though I do believe that Jesus was countering a common religious belief of the Pharisees and Saducees that outward physical blessings (riches) imply that one is righteous before God. Such is simply not true. The evidence of being righteous before God is matter of charachter, being filled with the righteousness, love, joy, and wholeness (peace) of God!

Concerning your interpretation of the parable/story of the rich man and Lazarus, of course you're welcome to impose upon it any interpretation you please, but I believe such an imposition is unfounded, not founded in either the literary, cultural, historic, or authorial context.

 

[it'sme]

Jesus countered their disbelief in the afterlife by telling them that they did not know or understand scripture, nor the power of God. When scripture says repeatedly that God is the God of Abraham and Isaac, it not only recognizes that God exists, but that Abraham and Isaac too currently exist though they are physically dead; thus there is life after death. So when it came to the argument between the Pharisees and the Saducees concerning life after death, Jesus specifically affirmed that the Pharisees on this issue were correct; there is life after death, continued existance.

Jehovah did not create man to die. Adam and Eve could have lived forever. There was no need of a after life. That is a pagan belief.
Also Jesus was the first one resurrected to heaven, so anyone that died before him, like Abraham and Isaac , had no place to go if they had an after life. They would not be condemned to a Hell. The bible also says we are the same as the animals when we die.

Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”

Eccl. 9:10: “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [“the grave,” KJ, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV], the place to which you are going.”

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts [“thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “all his thinking,” NE; “plans,” RS, NAB] do perish.”

His spirit goes out here just means it is gone, non existent.

Man was never intended for an after life.

 

[ShermanN]

Jehovah did not create man to die. Adam and Eve could have lived forever. There was no need of a after life. That is a pagan belief.

I believe scripture indicates that God created man knowing that man would fall, would die physically, would need salvation and ressurection. Thus Jesus is said to be crucified before the foundation of the world. It was all part of God's plan. Adam and Eve living forever and never experiencing ressurection was not God's plan. Man sinning and dying was certainly not a surprise to God.

Whether you believe that the after life is a pagan belief or not, it was a common Jewish belief during the time of Christ, one that he affirmed through his teachings concerning Gehenna and Paradise. Jesus even said to the theif on the cross "This day" he would be with him in Paradise.

Also Jesus was the first one resurrected to heaven, so anyone that died before him, like Abraham and Isaac , had no place to go if they had an after life. They would not be condemned to a Hell.

Actually, as I've noted before, the word "first" can be interpreted to mean either first in order or first in preeminence. I believe the "first in preeminence" is the intended meaning. If you'd like to discuss a specifical scripture that notes this, please let me know which one.

Concerning those who died before Christ being "condemned to Hell", scripture notes that Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world; I believe this indiates that not only was such part of God's plan, but that the crucifiction was effective for all humanity being it was in reality a trans-temporal, eternal event.

Due to eternity being trans-temporal, it's difficult for us to speak, even think of things that are eternal in nature. We speak of past, present, and furture, whereas eternity is a different reality, dimension. It's like the difference between 2-dimensions and 3-dimensions.

Also, scripture even speaks of Christ, when He died, going and preaching to the spirits in prison, specifically those who died having rejected the salvation of God through Noah.

The bible also says we are the same as the animals when we die.

Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”

Eccl. 9:10: “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [“the grave,” KJ, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV], the place to which you are going.”

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts [“thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “all his thinking,” NE; “plans,” RS, NAB] do perish.”

His spirit goes out here just means it is gone, non existent.

Man was never intended for an after life.

In previous posts I've already noted that poetic literature, as in the Psalms and Ecclesiastes, should not be interpreted strictly literally, but poetically. Not only that, but as for me, the sayings of Christ are far more authoritative for establishing doctrine than such statements from men who knew far less concerning the after life.

And as stated earlier, I believe that the fall of man was as much a part of the plan of God as was the sacrifice of Christ. In other words, not only was man intended to fall and die, but was intended to be saved and ressurected.

Jesus speaking of His own death comforted the disciples saying that he would go and prepare a place for them, so that they could be with him, assuring them that He would return for them. Of course, in this He was speaking from their temporal perspecting futuristically, though it was already an accomplished fact in eternity.

The after-life was part of God's plan from before creation. In fact, it's easily argued that the after life was the intent of God for humanity from the beginning, that we, like butterflies, go through death only to emmerge in a new body, a glorified body freed from the limitations of our current existence in this life - like a catapillar becoming a butterfly. Didn't Paul say, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, that are spiritual bodies will be far better than our earthly bodies, that creation itself groans for the manifestations of the sons of God.

 

[it'sme]

I believe scripture indicates that God created man knowing that man would fall, would die physically, would need salvation and ressurection. Thus Jesus is said to be crucified before the foundation of the world. It was all part of God's plan. Adam and Eve living forever and never experiencing ressurection was not God's plan. Man sinning and dying was certainly not a surprise to God.

Jehovah did not make Adam and Eve perfect, so that they could live forever, and then behind the scenes say they are going to fail. Because they have free will, it was always a possibility, but they also could have remained loyal. Then if later down the line someone failed that could have been corrected by just getting rid of that one. ( This is so because Satan taunt to Jehovah was that no one will stay loyal to you.) If Adam and Eve did remain loyal, then that would have proved Satan a liar right then and there.
There was no after life for man, planned by God, only resurrection. Bible says that when we died is is the same for the animals.

Ecclesiastes 3:19 For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity.

Also, scripture even speaks of Christ, when He died, going and preaching to the spirits in prison, specifically those who died having rejected the salvation of God through Noah.

1 Peter 3:19 In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.



At 1 Peter 3:19, 20, after describing Jesus’ resurrection to spirit life, the apostle says: “In this state also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed.” Commenting on this text, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words says: “In I Pet. 3:19 the probable reference is, not to glad tidings (which there is no real evidence that Noah preached, nor is there evidence that the spirits of antediluvian people are actually ‘in prison’), but to the act of Christ after His resurrection in proclaiming His victory to fallen angelic spirits.” As has been noted, ke‧rys′so refers to a proclamation that may be not only of something good but also of something bad, as when Jonah proclaimed Nineveh’s coming destruction. The only imprisoned spirits referred to in the Scriptures are those angels of Noah’s day who were ‘delivered into pits of dense darkness’ (2Pe 2:4, 5) and “reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.” (Jude 6) Therefore the preaching by the resurrected Jesus to such unrighteous angels could only have been a preaching of judgment. It may be noted that the book of Revelation transmitted in vision to John by Christ Jesus toward the close of the first century C.E. contains much about Satan the Devil and his demons as well as their ultimate destruction, hence, a preaching of judgment. (Re 12-20) Peter’s use of the past tense (“preached”) indicates that such preaching had been done prior to the writing of his first letter.

 

[it'sme]

Jesus speaking of His own death comforted the disciples saying that he would go and prepare a place for them, so that they could be with him, assuring them that He would return for them. Of course, in this He was speaking from their temporal perspecting futuristically, though it was already an accomplished fact in eternity.

Jesus was the first one to be resurrected to the heavens as a spirit creature.
The prepared place is speaking of the ones that do go to heaven to rule with Jesus. That is why there is no place prepared for them before that. this is the 144,000 that rule with Jesus. They have been chosen from after Jesus death down to our day, so as to complete that number. But the the rest of mankind that have died before the end, will be resurrected to the earth.

 

[ShermanN]

Jehovah did not make Adam and Eve perfect, so that they could live forever, and then behind the scenes say they are going to fail. Because they have free will, it was always a possibility, but they also could have remained loyal. Then if later down the line someone failed that could have been corrected by just getting rid of that one. ( This is so because Satan taunt to Jehovah was that no one will stay loyal to you.) If Adam and Eve did remain loyal, then that would have proved Satan a liar right then and there.
There was no after life for man, planned by God, only resurrection. Bible says that when we died is is the same for the animals.

You're welcome to believe what you want of course. Scripture doesn't say the God made Adam and Eve perfect so that they could live forever. Scripture says that God made them and was pleased with what He made - and soon thereafter man sinned. This did not surprise God; rather, it was part of His plan from the beginning.

Ecclesiastes 3:19 For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity.

As noted several times previously, Ecclesiastes is poetic wisdom literature, not meant to be taken literally. Ecclesiastes actually starts off and repeats the them that

"Meaningless! Meaningless!"
says the Teacher.
"Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless."

So is "everything meaningless"? Of course not. Solomon is poetically making a point that everything in life is meaningless if it is without God. Work for work's sake is meaningless and unfulfilling. Fun for fun's sake is meaningless and unfulfilling. etc. etc. etc.

To take a scripture out of this book and interpret it literally instead of poetically is to misinterpret it.

1 Peter 3:19 In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.



At 1 Peter 3:19, 20, after describing Jesus’ resurrection to spirit life, the apostle says: “In this state also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed.” Commenting on this text, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words says: “In I Pet. 3:19 the probable reference is, not to glad tidings (which there is no real evidence that Noah preached, nor is there evidence that the spirits of antediluvian people are actually ‘in prison’), but to the act of Christ after His resurrection in proclaiming His victory to fallen angelic spirits.” As has been noted, ke‧rys′so refers to a proclamation that may be not only of something good but also of something bad, as when Jonah proclaimed Nineveh’s coming destruction. The only imprisoned spirits referred to in the Scriptures are those angels of Noah’s day who were ‘delivered into pits of dense darkness’ (2Pe 2:4, 5) and “reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.” (Jude 6) Therefore the preaching by the resurrected Jesus to such unrighteous angels could only have been a preaching of judgment. It may be noted that the book of Revelation transmitted in vision to John by Christ Jesus toward the close of the first century C.E. contains much about Satan the Devil and his demons as well as their ultimate destruction, hence, a preaching of judgment. (Re 12-20) Peter’s use of the past tense (“preached”) indicates that such preaching had been done prior to the writing of his first letter.

The reason that Vine's explains this passage as He does is because He comes from the perspective that there is a Hell and that there is no possibility for repentance in the after life -- And thus, when Peter says that Jesus when he was in the grave preached to those spirits in prison who were disobedient during the most evil time in all of history thus far, the time of Noah, He could not have been preaching "Good News" as it says, meant to set the captives free, but must mean something else. He then proceeds to try and figure out a way around what it says.

"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. ... For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit."

Of course, this lines up with Jesus' repeated teaching on Gehenna, that in the after life we will give an account for the things we've done in the flesh; and that which is vain, useless, wicked, or evil will be burnt up. Jesus warned of Gehenna repeatedly, emphasizing just how terrible it is. The problem is, Gehenna is often mistranslated as "Hell", when to the Jew it's predominant meaning would be better translated today as "Purgatory" - an event of Remedial Punishment in the after life.

"To live is Christ, to die is gain." "To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ."

 

[ShermanN]

Jesus was the first one to be resurrected to the heavens as a spirit creature.
The prepared place is speaking of the ones that do go to heaven to rule with Jesus. That is why there is no place prepared for them before that. this is the 144,000 that rule with Jesus. They have been chosen from after Jesus death down to our day, so as to complete that number. But the the rest of mankind that have died before the end, will be resurrected to the earth.

Actually scripture says that Enoch never even saw death but was translated, transformed as will be people when Jesus returns. Jesus was the First in preemenence, and first in order eternally speaking, but temporally speaking He was not the first to die and rise to Ga Eden (Paradise, Abraham's bosom, Heaven).

You know bro., it doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere. I believe that Jesus' warning concerning Gehenna indicates that such is a real possibility, if we live in such wickedness. In fact, when warning of the terribleness of Gehenna (Purgatory), Jesus actually says that we shall all be "salted (purified) by fire" (Mk.9.49). Judgment is an eternal reality. We can let the fire of God burn the evil out of us now, if we are wise; or it will burn the evil from us in the after life, but we will be judged and encounter the Remedial correction of the Lord. No such chastisement/discipline is pleasant at the time, but it does work good in us.

 

[it'sme]

You're welcome to believe what you want of course. Scripture doesn't say the God made Adam and Eve perfect so that they could live forever. Scripture says that God made them and was pleased with what He made - and soon thereafter man sinned. This did not surprise God; rather, it was part of His plan from the beginning.

First of all why would you severe a God that would do that to us?

But if I were to do something that you wanted me to do, would you condemn me for it? . . . Then, if Adam’s sin was God’s will, why was Adam driven out of Eden as a sinner? (Gen. 3:17-19, 23, 24)’ Why put him in a garden like that in the first place?
Jehovah is a God of love. (1 John 4:8) All his ways are just. (Ps. 37:28; Deut. 32:4) It was not God’s will for Adam to sin; he warned Adam against it. (Gen. 2:17)’ (2) ‘God did allow Adam, as he does us, the freedom to choose what he would do. Perfection did not rule out the exercise of free will to disobey. Adam chose to rebel against God, despite the warning that death would result.

If God foreordained and foreknew Adam’s sin and all that would result from this, it would mean that by creating Adam, God deliberately set in motion all the wickedness committed in human history. He would be the Source of all the wars, the crime, the immorality, the oppression, the lying, the hypocrisy, the disease. But the Bible clearly says: “You are not a God taking delight in wickedness.” (Ps. 5:4) “Anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates.” (Ps. 11:5) “God . . . cannot lie.” (Titus 1:2) “From oppression and from violence he [the One designated by God as Messianic King] will redeem their soul, and their blood will be precious in his eyes.” (Ps. 72:14) “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) “He is a lover of righteousness and justice.”—Ps. 33:5.
This would also make Jesus death meaningless, why would Jehovah have his Son killed for what he himself set in motion, to correct it.
Adam and Eve had a choice , they made the wrong one.

A corresponding ransom, means to cover or payback or redeem, equally. Jesus was a perfect man covering Adams perfect life lost. This is also why Jesus is not God ( Jehovah) . Adam was not a God so that only God could redeem him, we was a perfect man , that is why Jesus as a perfect human could redeem Adam.

 

[ShermanN]

God ultimately is the source of all, the creator and designer of all. And all will ultimately come to fulfillment in Him. Why serve God who created humans with free will, knowing that they were going to fall, even having such as part of his plan? Simply because He is God and He's revealed His love for us in the sacrifice of Christ.

Concerning God "condeming me for it", actually Jesus said that he didn't come to condemn the world, but to save the world. God doesn't condemn us; He saves us. God is the savior of all humanity, especially us who belive. Ultimately God brings all into justification and life. Though the sin of Adam plunged us all into death and decay, the righteousness of Christ brings us all into justification and life.

As to Jesus not being God, if you want to argue that you're welcome to do so on another thread. One of the primary reasons the religious leaders of Jesus' day accused him of blaspheming was because his statements implied that he himself was God, especially John's "I AM" statements. Jesus is Emmanuel, God with us. But anyhow, let's not get into an argument on that on this thread.

Back to the issue of this thread. Is there a Hell, a place of conscious unending torment? Scripture does not affirm such. Of the 4 words in scripture that are traditionally interpreted Hell in English translations, not one of them means "Hell". Sheol and Hades typically mean grave or realm of the dead. The OT was translated in Greek well before Jesus, and the Hebrew word Sheol was translated in the LXX as Hades. And Hades was understood to be the realm of the dead, where everyone went when they died physically. Within Hades were three basic areas. The Elysium fields were "heavenly". The Ashphodel plains were neutral, boring but not torturous. And Tartaroo was torturous. The point is, that the OT Sheol when translated into Greek Hades indicated that the Jews understood Sheol as the realm of the dead, the after life.

Tartaroo (torturous realm in Hades) is only used once in scripture, and Peter says that such was where the sinning angels are held until judgment. In scripture, people are never said to be sent there; and even the sinning angels are said to be held there only until judgment.

The key word is Gehenna, which Jesus repeatedly warned of. Gehenna was a Jewish theological metaphor that meant to the Jews a place of purifying punishment in the after life where people faced the fire of truth concerning their lives. Their attitudes and actions were judged and that which was evil and selfish was burnt up. It was predominantly understood as an event/place of purification and healing of the soul.

You're welcome to believe what you want. I've come to believe that God is righteous, just, merciful, and loving, and that punishment in the afterlife is Remedial in nature, not vindictive. And I've come to believe that God redeems all of humanity through the sacrifice on the Cross. That just as the sin of Adam plunged all of humanity into death and destruction, the sacrifice of Christ redeems all of humanity and brings all of us into justification and life (Rom.5.18). Jesus truly is the savior of all humanity, especially we who believe (1 Tim. 4:10). Hell, the threat of conscious unending torment, is a fabrication of men who sought to control others through fear, guilt, and manipulation. It perverts the Gospel, dishonors God, and keeps many from embracing the forgiveness in this temporal life that is in Christ in eternal life.

 

[it'sme]

God ultimately is the source of all, the creator and designer of all. And all will ultimately come to fulfillment in Him. Why serve God who created humans with free will, knowing that they were going to fall, even having such as part of his plan? Simply because He is God and He's revealed His love for us in the sacrifice of Christ.

Concerning God "condeming me for it", actually Jesus said that he didn't come to condemn the world, but to save the world. God doesn't condemn us; He saves us. God is the savior of all humanity, especially us who belive. Ultimately God brings all into justification and life. Though the sin of Adam plunged us all into death and decay, the righteousness of Christ brings us all into justification and life.

Adam and Eve could have lived forever on a paradise earth. All they had to do is be loyal to God. They chose not too. That is the same with the angels. Some fell away with Satan , but a lot did not. Since they were created individually by Jehovah through Jesus, if one of them chose not to remain loyal they would die at some point ( Satan and his Demons). But the rest continue on living. Adam had the same choice, but he did this before he had offspring, so all that are born since , are imperfect. Jesus came to buy that perfect life lost , through loyalty, to the death, and thus we all have a chance, to get back to perfection. But it is for the ones that want it. God , condemned the world at the time of the flood. Only 8 survived out of proximately 1 million. So you have to qualify to actually receive the benefit of Jesus sacrifice.

Tartaroo (torturous realm in Hades) is only used once in scripture, and Peter says that such was where the sinning angels are held until judgment. In scripture, people are never said to be sent there; and even the sinning angels are said to be held there only until judgment.

The key word is Gehenna, which Jesus repeatedly warned of. Gehenna was a Jewish theological metaphor that meant to the Jews a place of purifying punishment in the after life where people faced the fire of truth concerning their lives. Their attitudes and actions were judged and that which was evil and selfish was burnt up. It was predominantly understood as an event/place of purification and healing of the soul.

You're welcome to believe what you want. I've come to believe that God is righteous, just, merciful, and loving, and that punishment in the afterlife is Remedial in nature, not vindictive. And I've come to believe that God redeems all of humanity through the sacrifice on the Cross. That just as the sin of Adam plunged all of humanity into death and destruction, the sacrifice of Christ redeems all of humanity and brings all of us into justification and life (Rom.5.18). Jesus truly is the savior of all humanity, especially we who believe (1 Tim. 4:10). Hell, the threat of conscious unending torment, is a fabrication of men who sought to control others through fear, guilt, and manipulation. It perverts the Gospel, dishonors God, and keeps many from embracing the forgiveness in this temporal life that is in Christ in eternal life.

Satan and his demons, are held in an abyss, but they never died to be there . It is just a confinement of them. Which is basically the same as you said. They will be let out of this for at short time at the end of the 1,000 years period.This is on the earth, and man is a physical being just as he is now. This is the final test of man, and many will fail , but not all. ( by this time man will be perfect again, just like Adam. So we all have the same test of logicality to god as Adam did.
So you are also correct that torture is not part of Gods plans at all. Gehenna was the valley just out the walls. They kept a garbage dump burning there all the time. They threw anything in there, maybe some dead animals and criminals , but not anyone alive. So this just meant total destruction. No purification just destruction. Non existence.
The bible does talk about purification by fire as you would metals,, but this does not mean a person is tested by actual fire. This is a symbolic meaning.
You mentioned the cross (I have discussed this in other threads, so I won't go into it here) But this is a pagan symbol. It comes from Sun Worship.
If you are interested you can find it here.
The Non-Christian Cross by John Denham Parsons - Project Gutenberg

 

[ShermanN]

Concerning a person having to "qualify to actually receive the benefit of Jesus sacrifice", scripture says that the sacrifice of Christ is for all humanity, that just like the sin of Adam plunged all of humanity into the darkness of sin, the sacrifice of Christ redeems all of humanity bringing us into the light of justification and life (Rom. 5: especially vs.18). Of course, in order to embrace the forgiveness and love of God in this life, one must have faith in the Lord. But this is really getting off the topic of whether there is a hell of not, much less getting into all the other doctrinal distinctives of JWs.

It seems that we at least agree that scripture does not indicate that there is a Hell, that anyone or anything shall suffer conscious unending torment. If I understand you correctly, you believe that those who do not "qualify" for eternal life are annihilated in death. And if there was not so much scriptural evidence indicating the salvation of all humanity, the ressurection of all humanity, all humanity facing the remedial judgment of the Lord, etc., I'd likely believe in annihilationism also. Scripture does say that the wages of sin is death; it does not say anywhere that the wages of sin is conscious unending torment; such is interpreted and read into scripture. The word "Hell" should not even be in English translations of Scripture. Sadly, the doctrine of Hell is so rooted in tradition that it is difficult for most believers to even consider that such could actually be unscriptural.

 

[it'sme]

Concerning a person having to "qualify to actually receive the benefit of Jesus sacrifice", scripture says that the sacrifice of Christ is for all humanity, that just like the sin of Adam plunged all of humanity into the darkness of sin, the sacrifice of Christ redeems all of humanity bringing us into the light of justification and life (Rom. 5: especially vs.18). Of course, in order to embrace the forgiveness and love of God in this life, one must have faith in the Lord. But this is really getting off the topic of whether there is a hell of not, much less getting into all the other doctrinal distinctives of JWs.

It seems that we at least agree that scripture does not indicate that there is a Hell, that anyone or anything shall suffer conscious unending torment. If I understand you correctly, you believe that those who do not "qualify" for eternal life are annihilated in death. And if there was not so much scriptural evidence indicating the salvation of all humanity, the ressurection of all humanity, all humanity facing the remedial judgment of the Lord, etc., I'd likely believe in annihilationism also. Scripture does say that the wages of sin is death; it does not say anywhere that the wages of sin is conscious unending torment; such is interpreted and read into scripture. The word "Hell" should not even be in English translations of Scripture. Sadly, the doctrine of Hell is so rooted in tradition that it is difficult for most believers to even consider that such could actually be unscriptural.

God has given this opportunity for salvation through his Son. That is why Jesus died. But you still have to accept that gift. There are many religions and people that do not accept that. Jesus was 30 years old before he was baptized. In those days the idea is that you have to know accept God gift for it to be accepted by Jehovah. The qualification comes from knowing what is evolved and agreeing with that.

There is not actual place of Hell. It is, in fact, because of the way that the word “hell” is understood today that it is such an unsatisfactory translation of these original Bible words. Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell” says: “fr[om] . . . helan to conceal.” The word “hell” thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar

Collier’s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says concerning “Hell”: “First it stands for the Hebrew Sheol of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament. Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word ‘hell,’ as understood today, is not a happy translation.”

So you are correct the word hell should not be used to day. But it is and is confusing many people to believe in some sort of after life, where you are tormented.


It just means grave or in the ground. So over time the meaning of the word hell has changed to mean a fiery place. But there is a chance for resurrection. This comes in the 1,000 year period, after Armageddon.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Adam and Eve could have lived forever on a paradise earth. All they had to do is be loyal to God. They chose not too.

Hmm. How do you suppose they could have lived forever there? Where they not made with a curious nature? Was not the tree right there where they could easily get to it? Was not the serpent also in the garden to tempt them? Did God not know they would break this rule when he made the rule?

It seems that the only logical conclusion is either God was surprised by thier actions or they did exactly what God had planned.

 

[it'sme]

Hmm. How do you suppose they could have lived forever there? Where they not made with a curious nature? Was not the tree right there where they could easily get to it? Was not the serpent also in the garden to tempt them? Did God not know they would break this rule when he made the rule?

It seems that the only logical conclusion is either God was surprised by thier actions or they did exactly what God had planned.

The question was loyalty. It was Satan that gave Eve the idea that what God said was not true , a lie. Eve was deceived. But Adam had many dealings with Jehovah, knew a lot about him, and saw all the creation. Adam knew that if he ate from that tree, he would die. Adam knew what death was. All the animals around him died in their time. For Adam is was being loyal to God or his wife Eve. He chose badly. Jehovah did not hold any thing back from Adam he had everything he needed.
Satan and some angels that followed him, for them , it was just that they wanted the worship to go to them. It was just a lust for power with them. A type of greed.
God did not plan for a failure, but he did have a plan if they failed. And that was the resurrection hope, and the balance was the Jesus bought back what Adam lost. Man was never made for a spirit life like the angels. Man was created for the earth. And that was Gods purpose for them. That has not changed.

 

[Soul Searcher]

So are you saying that God did not know the end from the begining? If God knew that they would disobey and that is not what he wanted them to do then he would have done something different.

For example if I want a bucket that does not leak I do not make it with a hole in the bottom else my water would spill out and I certianly could not blame the bucket nor the hole for this failure. The failure would be on the part of the designer not the object made. Of coruse if I wanted a bucket that emptied out slowly over time then the design would be perfect.

So either God knew they would fail and that was what he intended or he did not know they would fail and had to come up with a new plan. That is assumign of course the story is to be taken as an event that actually happened which I doubt is the case.

 

[it'sme]

So are you saying that God did not know the end from the begining? If God knew that they would disobey and that is not what he wanted them to do then he would have done something different.

For example if I want a bucket that does not leak I do not make it with a hole in the bottom else my water would spill out and I certianly could not blame the bucket nor the hole for this failure. The failure would be on the part of the designer not the object made. Of coruse if I wanted a bucket that emptied out slowly over time then the design would be perfect.

So either God knew they would fail and that was what he intended or he did not know they would fail and had to come up with a new plan. That is assumign of course the story is to be taken as an event that actually happened which I doubt is the case.

But a bucket is not a human. And we are not robots. ( programed to succeed or fail.)
The reason we are going through this at all is Satan. And his resistance to Jehovah. What kind of an example to the angels would it be if , God just wipes us out and started over. Or on the other hand made it so that we could not fail. We are like God in that we can choose our own course.
It tells us something about Jehovah, that he wanted us to love for his qualities, and what he stands for. He wanted man to love on their own, not as a reprogrammed being. So with this there is the possibility, that they won't. That they will go another way. This is what Satan challenged Jehovah with. He said no one would follow God. That is why Jehovah sent his Son, to die for mankind. To buy back the perfect life that was lost with Adam.
The point is that Jehovah can see into the future, but what he says will come to pass. So the earth will be filled with perfect humans just like he said when we were first created. So it does work out. Satan is proved a liar.
There was a movie awhile back that was about cops putting people in jail and punishing them before they did the crime.( so in affect no crime was ever committed, but these people were punished anyway.)
So we really have to live our lives and God may look into the future , and see we may choose badly, but we have to make our own mistakes.

 

[Der Alte]

There is not actual place of Hell. It is, in fact, because of the way that the word “hell” is understood today that it is such an unsatisfactory translation of these original Bible words. Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell” says: “fr[om] . . . helan to conceal.” The word “hell” thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar

While this may be true, no source given, what a word may have meant some time in the distant past may or may not have any relation to the meaning it has in modern times. For example, there are more than 800 words in the KJV which no longer mean what the translators intended or have dropped out of use altogether. For example, the word translated "prevent" in 1Th 4:15 actually means precede.

Collier’s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says concerning “Hell”: “First it stands for the Hebrew Sheol of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament. Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word ‘hell,’ as understood today, is not a happy translation.”[ . . . ]

Mostly irrelevant I doubt anyone has access to a 24 year old, 1986 encyclopedia therefore none of this can be verified. Here is what the online 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica says about "hell."

Hell O. Eng. Hel a Teutonic word from a root meaning “to cover” cf. Ger Hölle, Dutch Hel the word used in English both of the place of departed spirits and the place of torment of the wicked after death. It is used in the Old Testament to translate the Hebrew Sheol and in the New Testament Greek Ades, Hades and geenna, Hebrew Gehenna.

Online 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica​

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​

 

[Soul Searcher]

But a bucket is not a human. And we are not robots. ( programed to succeed or fail.)
The reason we are going through this at all is Satan. And his resistance to Jehovah. What kind of an example to the angels would it be if , God just wipes us out and started over. Or on the other hand made it so that we could not fail. We are like God in that we can choose our own course.
It tells us something about Jehovah, that he wanted us to love for his qualities, and what he stands for. He wanted man to love on their own, not as a reprogrammed being. So with this there is the possibility, that they won't. That they will go another way. This is what Satan challenged Jehovah with. He said no one would follow God. That is why Jehovah sent his Son, to die for mankind. To buy back the perfect life that was lost with Adam.
The point is that Jehovah can see into the future, but what he says will come to pass. So the earth will be filled with perfect humans just like he said when we were first created. So it does work out. Satan is proved a liar.
There was a movie awhile back that was about cops putting people in jail and punishing them before they did the crime.( so in affect no crime was ever committed, but these people were punished anyway.)
So we really have to live our lives and God may look into the future , and see we may choose badly, but we have to make our own mistakes.

So I understand that you are blaming Satan. Who created Satan? Why? Did this creator know that Satan would cause all this grief? Was that the creators intention? Was it unforeseen? A mistake?

Face it either God did not know what was going to happen or he wanted it to happen as it did or he was not planning correctly for what he wanted to happen.

 

[it'sme]

So I understand that you are blaming Satan. Who created Satan? Why? Did this creator know that Satan would cause all this grief? Was that the creators intention? Was it unforeseen? A mistake?

Face it either God did not know what was going to happen or he wanted it to happen as it did or he was not planning correctly for what he wanted to happen.

The bible says that Satan made himself as Satan. He was created by God not as Satan . What I mean about that is, all the angels were created. But there was one that was favored by God and was given the position of ruling the earth . That was his job. But in that position he corrupted himself, he became a resistor to God. ( Satan's name means resister) The bible says that a 3rd of the angels in heaven sided with him. But that left 2\3rds that stayed loyal to Jehovah.
The 3rd that fell away will be will be done away with.

But the bottom line is that this is what we have. we could have many ideas of our own on this but, God did it this way. There is a justice to this, in that his creations can have a choice, and we now can understand that a bad choice , gives bad results. It does mean the the ones that make a good choice suffer becasue of the bad. But only for a time.

We also have to be able to trust God in that what he says will be. So to just wipe out the bad, is like saying Jehovah made a mistake, or that he can't do things correctly. But the ones that made the bad choice have proved Jehovah correct in that, that choice results in a bad outcome.
So down the road no one can say, my way is better than Jehovah's way. The question has been answered for all time.
So the the real way to look at this is, why did he do it this way, and why is this the most just, way? This question is bigger than just us, there are also the angels to consider.
Beside nothing has changed, at the end of God's creative rest period , everything will be, as as he said it would be. A earth full of perfect people that want to serve God on a paradise earth.