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about being a catholic?

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by scapegoat 13, Aug 22, 2001.

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  1. scapegoat 13

    scapegoat 13 Guest

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    I am not a catholic. But, I do have catholic cousins. And as far as I'm concerned, that if we shared the same God, we are brothers and sisters in Christ. Of course I don't understand a few of the doctrines and such.
    And probably that all doesn't matter. But this is what I do know. That if a person is loving God the Father and his Son from their hearts and loving others...then I believe God honors that. And according to the laws that have been written in their hearts, God judges righteously by these. I can not judge a person on how they choose to love their God because it differs from my convictions of doctrine. If someone is in deep error, then God is the one to correct them or me.

    Your thoughts?

    ~Ichabod~
     
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  2. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    well for some info (i'm not catholic either but we have some very knowledgeable ones here that love God) check my curiuos thread.
     
  3. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Blessings on you, scapegoat! IMHO you have exactly the right attitude. I cannot count the times I have read on some Internet forum that because I am a Catholic I was either damned, or at the very least, would end up in some low spot of heaven, shovelling horse manure dropped from the steeds of the "truly righteous". :rolleyes: :

    I don't think that any Christian should ever make judgements about another Christian's salvation. That's not our job, it God's. We do not have all the facts about that person's soul to make such judgements. Only God does.

    And I agree with you that even if we disagree on points of doctrine, we are all brothers and sisters. :)

    Blessings,
    ---Wols.
     
  4. AngelAmidala

    AngelAmidala Legend

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    Amen! :)

    I can't say it much better then the posts prior to mine.
     
  5. scapegoat 13

    scapegoat 13 Guest

    +0
    Thank you for commenting. I am glad to know that there is a mixture of christians here.

    Well said Wolseley. :lol:

    It is soooo true. Only God is a righteous judge. And I put my trust in that. I feel you can love beyond to others freely and not compromise your own convictions by allowing God to be the one to say what is right and wrong for others. How do I know what is going on in their lives? Or what has brought them to this point in their lives? I don't. But God does. If there is anything needed to be said, the Holy Spirit will open the door for conversation and point the way. We do the witnessing, He does the convincing. How often a few get those jobs mixed up. And who knows...I may be the one to learn this time.

    Thanks for the welcome.

    ~Ichabod~
     
  6. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

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    Well this is a breath of fresh air.

    Welcome Scapegoat. I think if we could bottle those sentiments and distribute them through the internet a few boards would go out of business.

    Enjoyed the comments. Welcome and God bless.
     
  7. scapegoat 13

    scapegoat 13 Guest

    +0
    :) I appreciate that! This is a work the Holy Spirit did in my heart about 3 maybe 4 years ago. Which only goes to prove that looking to Him will help us find the correct answers. He is the true teacher of God's ways. And it's not that I was thinking ill of catholics or anything. It's just something He brought to my attention for some reason. Perhaps for the future? Perhaps for now. All I know is, I have a peace where this issue is a concern for others. I never really thought about it, mainly because my cousins are catholics and I love them. So I was assuming that God loved them too. And I was right.

    I see so many christian sites where they are arguing scripture and points of doctrine. I try not to get too involved in such things. They are often fruitless. And some just try to out smart the next guy by saying all the right collection of words trying to prove someone wrong with what they know. Or think they know. I expect the Holy Spirit is just as grieved as I am sometimes over it.

    ~Ichabod~
     
  8. sear

    sear Guest

    +0
    Thanks for the reference scapegoat. I appreciate your response there (about head stones), and your insight here.

    I tend to shy away from religious one upmanship [my religion is better than your religion, etc]. But I sense this thread isn't about that, it seems to me to seek truth, not to disparage. On that basis ...

    My Biblical consultant, a Jehovah's Witness, explained to me once that Catholics are not Christians, because they follow the Pope, not Jesus. I was glad to have his insight, but I'm not convinced by his reasoning. Why? Because while they may indeed be influenced by the Pope, presumably the Pope is following Jesus, and therefore if Catholics follow the Pope, they're following Jesus too, even if indirectly.

    There's an even more fundamental argument here.

    Believe it or not, like it or not, admit it or not, we are all agnostic. Agnostic simply means we do not know. We may be firmly convinced in our own position, but without proof (that's precisely what faith means: belief without proof), we are all agnostic.

    Ironically some interpret that as lowing the character of believers. I think it's just the reverse. We'd be fools not to believe if we all had easy proof that god exists. That we accept that god exists despite the fact that we have no proof at all indicates to me the superior moral conviction.

    On Judgement Day I believe god will be more interested in the sincerity of our search than which particular path we used to reach him. Interdenominational rivalry seems to me somewhat of a waste of time.
     
  9. scapegoat 13

    scapegoat 13 Guest

    +0
    The pope merely guides the catholic church. Directs them...yes. But I don't see them praying to him. He points the way to Jesus, who in then points the way to the Father God. The Jehovah's Witness who expressed their opinion towards catholics will have to answer for his/her judgement concerning God's catholic children. Even as I think this statement, I am getting goosebumps...there will be many different people in heaven. And there is a long list. I believe the Father God is merely concerned with what we did with his Son Jesus on this earth, not what label we wear. And how we loved our neighbor. I can not deal with narrow mindedness which precludes others from heaven based on which church they go to if they are honoring Jesus and the commandments.

    "That we accept that god exists despite the fact that we have no proof at all indicates to me the superior moral conviction."
    ...But I do have proof. He rolled the stone away from my heart and I am a changed person. I've had 3 miracles in my life that were not anyone's doing, not even my own. We have proof in the world around us in the beauty of the moutains and sky. Our bodies are so well designed and operation so well. (except when I'm over tired or eat wrong) There is no way we crawled out of a mud hole. I have a little more pride in myself than to think my forefather was once a slug. And if we evolved from apes, why are there still apes?

    "On Judgement Day I believe god will be more interested in the sincerity of our search than which particular path we used to reach him. Interdenominational rivalry seems to me somewhat of a waste of time."
    ...I whole heartedly agree. How many have been brainwashed to think their way is the only way. And in doing so , have lost precious time not loving someone who could have been a key figure in their life or just the best friend they could possibly have. This statement is so well said!!!

    My aunt died of cancer a few years ago. When we were visiting her in the hospital, a woman came in and offered prayer for her in front of the entire family. She was catholic I believe. ( I get all teared up just typing this) They prayed the Lord's Prayer together and that was the first time I'd ever heard my aunt pray. It touched me so deeply, (wipes tears in order to type) (sniff) that I was speachless when she left the room.
    It was the beginning of the work towards catholics God did in my heart. 'One Faith, One God'.
     
  10. I am not a catholic. But, I do have catholic cousins. And as far as I'm concerned, that if we shared the same God, we are brothers and sisters in Christ. Of course I don't understand a few of the doctrines and such.
    And probably that all doesn't matter. But this is what I do know. That if a person is loving God the Father and his Son from their hearts and loving others...then I believe God honors that. And according to the laws that have been written in their hearts, God judges righteously by these. I can not judge a person on how they choose to love their God because it differs from my convictions of doctrine. If someone is in deep error, then God is the one to correct them or me.


    First, I am happy to see that you lack the bitterness that many non-Catholics have towards Holy Mother Church. A cheerful and friendly attitude is always a good place to start.

    It is obvious you do not subscribe to the maniacal fabrications of some, who claim the Pope is the "anti-Christ", that Catholicism is some crypto-form of "Babylonian Paganism", that nuns kill babies and bury them under convents, etc.

    However this then should give you reason to ask yourself a good question; if the Catholic Church is not in fact "the beast", what in fact is She? Indeed, why is she so hated?

    For if the Catholic Church is not this abominable, evil organization... what of Her unique claims, history, and antiquity? Could there not be something to all of this?

    While I would wholeheartedly agree that God honours the good, pure intentions of ignorant men and gives them further graces (helps) towards arriving at the truth that will set them free, He also expresses a firm standard. On that fateful day, the day in which Simon bar Jonah was given a new name by the Lord (something always significant in the Scriptures; as in when Abram was renamed, or Jacob was renamed by the Lord), he was told that the Lord's Church was being founded upon him, and it was this Church which was guaranteed to persist until the end of time. "Church" - Greek "ekklesia", is a word which occurs in the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint); it is used to speak of the Israelites, who were a visible body of people, with rites and customs specific to them, with a center of reference (Jerusalem). That the Lord chooses this word, "ekklesia" to designate that body of true believers under His care, should say something then about the nature of this group of people.

    Your good disposition is praiseworthy. But I would ask you, in good conscience, to keep your heart and mind open to the totality of Christ's teachings, which I submit only exist in the Catholic Church.

    If you wish, feel free to e-mail me at [email protected]

    Our Lady of Victor, Pray for us!

    Augustine
     

  11. Augustine:

    I totally agree. The mashing and bashing that calls itself 'Christian Witness' is really an embarassment. There are essentials and then there are topics that only rate 'Christian Chat' status.

    Let's keep them seperate.

    RC
     
  12. creamerja

    creamerja Guest

    +0
    Hi Scapegoat,

    You had said that there are some Catholic doctrines you do not understand. I'd be happy to explain them to you if you are interested. Speaking for myself, I came back to the RCC with a fervor, but had a problem calling Mary "Mother of God" until I understood what it means and what it doesn't mean.

    God Bless,
    Doug
     
  13. scapegoat 13

    scapegoat 13 Guest

    +0
    Augustine: Hello. Nice to meet you.

    "t is obvious you do not subscribe to the maniacal fabrications of some, who claim the Pope is the "anti-Christ", that Catholicism is some crypto-form of "Babylonian Paganism", that nuns kill babies and bury them under convents, etc."
    ...[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]! They did that?? ;)
    :lol: Yes, I have heard ALL these things and more. I make my own evaluations where others make judgements. I do not know all the facts concerning the history on the catholic church, therefore I can
    make a totally accurate judgement. And desides, judgement is so final soundings. God knows the heart
    of man. I do believe in the past they might have been harsh in areas from what I have read but then I don't believe everything I read or hear. I am mainly speaking more of the people who are loving God and loving others. And if people fall in this catagory and wear the catholic label, then so be it.

    I have a request please. When giving an example of the word, please include scripture references. I had
    to go searching for where Jesus and Peter were speaking. thanx. Matt 16 13-19
    I do beg to differ with you, that the church was not founded upon one man (peter) but rather on the revelation of truth that Jesus was/is the Son of God. But many see their conversation differently.
    (did I interpret your statement correctly?)

    "But I would ask you, in good conscience, to keep your heart and
    mind open to the totality of Christ's teachings, which I submit only exist in the Catholic Church."

    ...you have asked me to keep my mind open but it is already open. And in fact your statement here
    would seem closed minded in seeing only the Catholic Church as containing the cornerstone on Christ's teachings. Not so. I am here to talk on the common grounds which connect us to Christ. I will learn of
    the catholic doctrines in time but I do not wish to embrace them. I wish to respect the people who do.

    I submit this to you in turn... for you to also keep an open mind as I have done. That you may learn from an outsider...such as myself. I am searching where the Spirit leads me, not where a man leads me. No one particular christian church has the cornerstone on God's total truth.
    1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
    And my heart will tell me what is good and pure in the Lord's eyes. I will listen, I will look...and I will let the Spirit speak to me. And even if my pastor's words do not line up with the word, then he is in error. Perhaps a few may see this as a free thinker. I call it wisdom.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    recoveringcatholic (RC): Hi there. A pleasure to meet you. I agree with you on the chat thing. I've seen plenty on both sides of the fense, saying they know it all according to God's word. I think a common ground is the best way to go for now. Let God do the correcting, if need be in a person's walk. :) Hm? Wondering...is there a story behind your choice of names?
     
  14. scapegoat 13

    scapegoat 13 Guest

    +0
    Hello creamerja :)

    Thank you. Please give me some insight to how Catholic brothers and sisters view and feel
    towards the Virgin Mary. Appreciate it.

    Also, which books are in the Catholic bible that the King James does not. And briefly
    what are they about. Or do I have this completely screwed up in thought?
     
  15. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Catholics view the Virgin Mary as the Mother of Christ. Since Christ is God, she is given the title Mother of God. Catholics venerate Mary; that is, we feel that she is worthy of great admiration and respect, and we try to emulate her----but we do not worship her. Only God may be worshipped. We do pray to Mary, but only to ask her to pray for us. A Catholic does not ask Mary or any other saint to forgive our sins, or to save us, or to do any other thing that only God can do for us; we only ask them for their intecession. We believe that Mary was freed from stain of original sin prior to her birth, and we believe that she remained a virgin her entire life---that Jesus was the only child she ever bore. Finally, we believe that when Mary died, she was assumed, body and soul, into heaven.

    The books found in the Catholic Bible which are not in Protestant Bibles are:

    Tobit: which tells the story of a young man going on a long journey accompanied by the angel Raphael

    Judith: about a young Jewish woman who saves Israel during a war by killing the enemy commander

    1st and 2nd Maccabees: historical books telling the events of wars in 2nd-century B.C. Palestine

    Wisdom: a book of wise sayings, similar to Proverbs

    Sirach: much the same as Wisdom

    Baruch: a short prophetical book written by the scribe of the prophet Jeremiah.

    Some Orthodox Bibles also carry the books of 3rd and 4th Maccabees; Catholic Bibles do not.

    Does this help? :)

    Blessings,
    ---Wols.
     
  16. IRCosmo1

    IRCosmo1 Guest

    +0
    i havent read all the posts .
    but i will say if you truly bellieve the nicene creed and the two others then i would argue that you are born again .
    i was brought up catholic then moved to a baptist church.
    i would say that there are some very odd (by which i mean unscriptual practices) of the catholic church there are also some very good practices.
    i have met some born again catholics and priests usually called charismatics . so i would say the difference between us is in what we bellieve and wethere or not we are born again.
     
  17. scapegoat 13

    scapegoat 13 Guest

    +0
    Wols,

    "We do pray to Mary, but only to ask her to pray for us."
    ...Hmm? These does help clarify a bit of misconception. And since we do not know entirely how
    the spiritual realm works, but do beleive in life after death, that asking her to pray for us is
    possibly possible? I will check into this. Most interesting. I do believe in giving her the respect
    and honor when I speak of her that she was/is our Lord's mother but to what degree may
    vary from my catholic brothers and sisters. Since we in bodily form pray for others here on
    earth or this realm, what is there to say that the next realm can not also pray for another?
    A little confusion, but I will think further on this.

    "Finally, we believe that when Mary died, she was assumed, body and soul, into heaven."
    ...most interesting as well. I do know that a couple of prophets have been done this way. So yes, it
    could be possible. Although I do not have a scripture to back this up with. Do you?

    "we believe that she remained a virgin her entire life"
    ...First of all, she was a married woman and subject to the laws of Moses
    to give herself to her husband. But we do know that Joseph did not know her bodily as wife till after
    Jesus was born. It would have been unthinkable for her to have
    remained in marriage and withheld herself from her husband contrary to the law after our Lord was born.
    KJV Matthew 12
    46 "While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
    47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
    48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
    49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
    50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."

    ...Mary went on to have other children. How many? *shrugs* We do know that his immediate
    family traveled around following him from time to time.
    If the brothers He spoke of were the disciples why would He then turn and point to His disciples
    which were standing right there at the time. So this passage (47) speaks of his family type brothers.


    Matthew Matthew 13
    54" And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this
    wisdom, and these mighty works?
    55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
    56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?"

    ... A really big family here.

    I thank you for sharing your view. But some things I will not be able to embrace. I am NOT mocking
    the views of the catholic church, please understand that. Nor do sit in judgement and say
    that catholics are not going to heaven. HOGWASH! Only God is a righteous judge of the heart.
    I believe that a good MANY of my catholic brothers and sisters are doing the best they know
    how to love God and others. Just as I am.
    Christ is our common ground and on this I wish to estasblish a bond with them.

    I find the 'rosary' a beautiful ...um...I don't know what to call it. Please exbound on the details in
    the usage of the rosary. I have my aunt's in my jewlery box and it's old and worn. It has much
    meaning to me, not because I use it, but becasue she did. Is it strictly to help one focus when
    praying?

    I think that I will purchase or look up on the net a catholic bible to read in depth these books that
    you have mentioned. Most interesting. Thank you muchly!

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    to IRCosmo1:
    I do not know what goes on in the hearts of the catholic believer. But this I do know.
    That there are a few non-catholic 'so-called born agains' who go to church on Sunday and then live
    like the devil all week. Please send me by email a link to 'the nicene creed' so that I
    might evaluate for myself. thank you.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I am not here in this forum to say who is and who isn't going to heaven. Or who has all the knowledge
    on God's word. I can evaluate for myself from what knowledge my heart knows for situations that
    arise. Other than that...I shall keep my own council and let God have His way in all things.
    Please also know that I mean no disrepect towards anyone here if what I say or post differs
    from their beliefs. *nods politely*

    ~scg~
     
  18. Kirkland1244

    Kirkland1244 Regular Member

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    Wols,

    I'm not Wols, but I like to butt into things that don't concern me. :)

    Re: Assumption of the Blessed Virgin
    Although I do not have a scripture to back this up with. Do you?

    The Assumption is not a component of the faith found in Scripture. Remember, Catholics are not Sola-Scriptura. We don't have to be able to find each and every one of our beliefs in the Bible.

    If the brothers He spoke of were the disciples why would He then turn and point to His disciples
    which were standing right there at the time. So this passage (47) speaks of his family type brothers.


    The brothers could have been cousins (Aramiac and Hebrew had no word for cousin and cousins in those cultures were called "brothers"). There is also some Patristic support for the belief that Joseph was much, much older than Mary, and had children from a previous marriage.

    I find the 'rosary' a beautiful ...um...I don't know what to call it.

    It's generally called a "devotion." Or just a "prayer."

    Please exbound on the details in
    the usage of the rosary.


    The Rosary is a series of prayers and meditations on the Life of Christ. It begins with the Apostles Creed on the Crucifix, follwed by an Our Father on the first bead, three hail Marys on the subsequent three beads, and then a Glory Be & Our Father on the next beed, just before the medallion. On the beads in the circle part, there are sets of ten, each separated by one (generally larger) bead. On the ten beads, a Hail Mary is prayed once, and on the single bead, a Glory Be and an Our Father, and then again on the next set of ten, and so forth. There are five sets of Ten.

    During each set of ten, called a decade, the person praying mediates on a certain aspect of the life of Christ and the Incarnation. There are 15 of these meditations, three sets of five: The Joyful Mysteries (the Annunciation, the Visit of Mary to Elizabeth, the Nativity, the Presentation of Jesus at the Temple and the Finding of Jesus at the Temple), the Sorrowful Mysteries (the Prayer in Gethesamene, the Scourging at the Pillar, the Crown of Thorns, the Carrying of the Cross, and the Crucifixion) and the Glorious Mysteries (the Ressurrection, the Ascension, the Descent of the Holy Spirit, the Assmuption of Mary and the Crowning of Mary.)

    Kirk
     
  19. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Luke 16:19-30, while a parable, does contain a story of a departed man interceeding for his living brothers on earth. So, at least the idea is alluded to in Scripture.
    The closest we could come to would be Revelation 12:1, the Woman with a Crown of 12 Stars. The Church has always interpreted the woman as being Mary, which merely reinforces the knowledge that Mary went to Heaven. (The woman in Revelation is, after all in Heaven.:) ) Tradition also records the doctrine of the Assumption, with Gregory of Tours mentioning it in his Libri miraculorum in the sixth century.
    A couple of things here, all of them according to the Catholic interpretation; you are, of course, not required to accept this interpretation. :)
    We feel that Mary was always a virgin, and that Jesus was the only child she ever bore. Ancient traditions in the Church have seen Joseph as much older than Mary, probably a widower with grown children from a previous marriage. He may have been as much as 15 to 20 years older than she; and thus, this was more of a caretaker role for him, as a provider and protector, rather than as a husband in the usual sense of the word. In the days when women died like flies during childbirth, it must be borne in mind that it was not at all unusual for a man to marry a much younger woman.

    Ancient extra-biblical writings also back up the Church's take on this; the Protoevangelion of St. James, written around 150 A.D., contains a passage where Joseph protests to the elders in Mary's village, "I am an old man, with grown sons; why do you bring this maiden to me?" Of course, these writings are not inspired Scripture, but they do reflect the belief of the early Christians in some areas, this one included. :)

    Ergo, the passages you quoted which mention Jesus' siblings could very well have been older step-brothers and -sisters from a previous marriage of Joseph's. The Greek word in question in these passages (adelphos), can mean step-brothers; they can also mean cousins or nephews, as well as blood brothers or sisters. The Church, insisting on the Mary's perpetual virginity, has always taken the interpretation of these passages as meaning other than blood siblings. It is interesting to note that Martin Luther, Huldrich Zwingli, and Joahn Calvin as well, also all insisted on Mary's perpetual virginity---it was their followers a couple hundred years later that threw the idea out.

    Finally, the oft-quoted passage from Matthew 1:25, "He (Joseph) had no relations with her (Mary) until she bore a son" doesn't prove that he had relations with her afterwards, either; 2 Samuel 6:23 states that "Michal, the daughter of Saul had no children until the day of her death"---and it's a pretty sure bet that she didn't have children after her death. Deuteronomy 34:6 says that Moses was buried and nobody knew the loaction of his grave "until this present day"; but nobody knows were it since Deuteronomy was written, either. ;)

    Again, this is another one of those cases where Protestants interpret the Bible by the Bible, usually literally, and Catholics interpret the Bible by the Bible and Tradition.
    You can find the entire text of the Catholic Bible, both the old Douay-Rheims version, and the modern English New American version, at www.newadvent.org. In addition to the Bible, there are links to the Catholic Encyclopedia and the Summa Theologia of Thomas Aquinas.
    We call it a "devotion". :) The Rosary is a very old, and very beautiful, devotion, but explaining it takes time and space, so I'll answer your question in another post, to prevent this one from taking up too much space. :) In the meantime, I hope this helps. Again, I am explaining how Catholics interpret these issues; you don't have to agree with where we're coming from, but I hope you can at least understand where we're coming from. :)

    Blessings,
    ---Wols.
     
  20. StacieHeather

    StacieHeather Member

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    I have never posted in this forum before, I usually just lurk every once in a while. As a Baptist I'd like to say something. I agree with the first few posters in this thread. My husband is Catholic and I do not understand some of his beliefs but I'll fight to the death his right to believe them.
    I may not agree with all of the teachings of the Catholic church but, as it was stated so well before, I am not here to judge anyone, only God can do that. We will all be judged by Him in His time, not ours. I wish wonderful blessings to all here, Catholic or not.

    Stacie
     
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