About babies

[TSIBHOD]

Let us suppose that a person says that babies aren't saved. I'll explain the rationale. People can't be saved without hearing the gospel and having faith, so since people in remote places never hear the gospel, they can't be saved. God just didn't decide to regenerate those people, so He didn't need to have the gospel preached to them. God decided to be just to those people. In the same way, God has just decided to be just to any babies who die before they can believe the gospel (a baby who was just born is given as an example). Therefore, all babies are unsaved because God did not decide to regenerate them; for if God had wanted to regenerate them, He would have made sure they grew old enough to hear the gospel and believe.

Now, what I'm wondering is: is this view Calvinist, hyper-Calvinist, or is it just an optional belief for any kind of Calvinist?

 

[JesusFreak2133]

i'm sorry, i don't even know what calvinist means, but i cant tell u that this view is completely incorrect. there are more verses, but the only one i can find right now is Job 4:7, which, along with others and a knowledge of God's nature, has led me to believe that the innocent(those who die without ever hearing the Word) are saved, in the same way citizens from foreign countries cannot be found guilty of commiting a crime which is not illegal in their native land.

 

[cygnusx1]

Let us suppose that a person says that babies aren't saved. I'll explain the rationale. People can't be saved without hearing the gospel and having faith, so since people in remote places never hear the gospel, they can't be saved. God just didn't decide to regenerate those people, so He didn't need to have the gospel preached to them. God decided to be just to those people. In the same way, God has just decided to be just to any babies who die before they can believe the gospel (a baby who was just born is given as an example). Therefore, all babies are unsaved because God did not decide to regenerate them; for if God had wanted to regenerate them, He would have made sure they grew old enough to hear the gospel and believe.

Now, what I'm wondering is: is this view Calvinist, hyper-Calvinist, or is it just an optional belief for any kind of Calvinist?

Most Calvinists think God will save all babies dying in infancy , I am not convinced , because I know in the Flood , and in Sodom and Gommorah babies were not shown mercy ...........


BUT ,

God can save babies , and you may be assured that he can regenerate someone even in the womb , as seems to be the case with John The Baptist , who "recognised" Jesus even before either were born!

The Gospel not reaching adults is a different thing altogether.
We are told clearly in Romans 2 , that they will be judged by The Law written on their consciences .

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

It is an interesting quandry. The Bible says that we are all sinful from conception, but I think to David saying that he would one day join his son who died as an infant. I view this in the same category as eschatology for now. God will make the final determination, not me. And you know what? There will be no dissatisfied or partially satisfied people in Heaven.

 

[rnmomof7]

This is a very debated topic.

As a general rule Calvinists do not believe in the "age of reason" .
The Bible tells us that all are sinners every one. He makes no exception for children or the mental status of a person .

Infants need a Savior too.

As a Calvinist I believe that an infant in the womb or a 6 month old baby can be regenerated and saved by the grace of God.

Many Calvinists believe that all infants and children are saved , I do not think Scripture speaks to that issue at all .

To make a long story short , this Calvinist believe that infants are saved just like adults.. by the grace and Mercy of God. Not one of them are "innocent" or deserving of heaven, like us they are sinners saved by grace.

I always respond with this scripture to the lack of assurance that this gives when a child dies

Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

 

[Imblessed]

I think it makes people feel better to believe that God saves all babies who die, but we cannot be sure. As others have mentioned, God CAN save all babies, but whether He chooses to do so or not is not for us to know. I'm supposing that is why so many people believe in pedobaptism(just a personal belief), so they can feel sure that if their baby were to die, it would go to heaven. I could be wrong, and I'm sure that's not the only reason pedobaptism exists, but I would think that it would be compelling enough for some to do it.

I like the verse that rnmomof7 put forth. I think it's a good one! "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?" We must rest in the knowledge that God is just and will do what is just.

I used to believe that all infants who died were automatically "elect", but I realize now that that may not be the case. I have accepted that God WILL do what is right, and rest in that knowledge.

I believe that God's Grace is much wider than we can comprehend.

 

[jazzbird]

This is a very interesting topic, and I have no idea where I stand at this point. I have had two miscarriages and I have hope that God's grace covers those who die within the womb or in infancy. I lean on what CoffeeSwirls has mentioned. When David was grieving his son's death, he said that he (David) will go to him, though his son will never return to him.

Jesus also said that we must become like little children to enter the Kingdom. I know that this is figurative on one level, but I wonder if it does not also point to the fact that God sees fit to save the little children. Perhaps?

In the end, I guess I just believe that God is just and I trust in his goodness.

 

[jazzbird]

I just remembered that this winter Stanley had a sermon on this issue, but I only caught the end of the show when it was on TV. Here is a link to that sermon. I'm watching it right now. I think Stanley is a godly and intellegent preacher, and I'm really interested in his take on this. I know he is Baptist, but I don't know if he's a Calvinist....does anyone know?

When Little Children Die, What Then?

 

[TSIBHOD]

We are told clearly in Romans 2 , that they will be judged by The Law written on their consciences .

So what about the view that if people in some remote place have never heard of Jesus, that they are obviously not elect and cannot be saved, because they have never trusted in Jesus for their salvation? Is this a Calvinist belief? I ask because I know someone who believes this.

 

[cygnusx1]

So what about the view that if people in some remote place have never heard of Jesus, that they are obviously not elect and cannot be saved, because they have never trusted in Jesus for their salvation? Is this a Calvinist belief? I ask because I know someone who believes this.

but how can a person be saved without Jesus , The Gospel , the messenger ..... Romans 10 ........

I think as soon as you open the door for other ways to God you are in thick fog...

 

[TSIBHOD]

But these same people argue that babies are just like the "desert islanders." The babies never hear the gospel, so they never trust in Jesus. The argument goes that if God wanted those babies to be saved--if the babies were elect--then God would have made sure they had time on this earth to hear the gospel and believe.

Thoughts? Does this belief fit with Calvinism? The people who believe it claim to be Calvinists.

 

[rnmomof7]

This is a very interesting topic, and I have no idea where I stand at this point. I have had two miscarriages and I have hope that God's grace covers those who die within the womb or in infancy. I lean on what CoffeeSwirls has mentioned. When David was grieving his son's death, he said that he (David) will go to him, though his son will never return to him.

Jesus also said that we must become like little children to enter the Kingdom. I know that this is figurative on one level, but I wonder if it does not also point to the fact that God sees fit to save the little children. Perhaps?

In the end, I guess I just believe that God is just and I trust in his goodness.

I lost a 17 month old grandson, he walked into an in ground pool and was dead when the family found him.

It is always tragic to lose a baby, but as Calvinists we believe that every birth and death is ordained of God, so your infants, although not in your arms were sent as part of his plan , they had a purpose, they were not purposeless.

I think we just need to trust God on this, as scripture really does not address it directly.
The Judge of the world will do right ..

There is non righteous no not one.. not even our infants, all are sinners in the womb ...but we do know that St John the baptist was regenerated in the womb, not because he was innocent and deserved it, but because of Gods grace and plan.

 

[rnmomof7]

But these same people argue that babies are just like the "desert islanders." The babies never hear the gospel, so they never trust in Jesus. The argument goes that if God wanted those babies to be saved--if the babies were elect--then God would have made sure they had time on this earth to hear the gospel and believe.

Thoughts? Does this belief fit with Calvinism? The people who believe it claim to be Calvinists.

No, It is really an Arminian belief that one must "accept Christ" to be saved. We believe that He can call and make himself known as he will. John the Baptist was simply in the presence of Jesus when he leaped for joy (was regenerated). We have no way of knowing when an infant can hear in the womb ( my pregnant daughter in law plays the bible at night as she sleeps so the baby hears the word of god before he is born)

God can save in the womb or an infant or retarded person that can not have intellectual understanding.

Look at Jacob, look at John .... God is sovereign and will work as he will.

 

[rnmomof7]

So what about the view that if people in some remote place have never heard of Jesus, that they are obviously not elect and cannot be saved, because they have never trusted in Jesus for their salvation? Is this a Calvinist belief? I ask because I know someone who believes this.

The elect of God will all hear the gospel and be saved. Missionaries will come, a bible will be found, a radio program will be heard..

All the elect will hear and will come.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

For an example of what God will do to see His will done, see Acts 8:26-40

26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Rise and go toward the south [1] to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is a desert place. 27 And he rose and went. And there was an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure. He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28 and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.” 30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this:

“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter
and like a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he opens not his mouth.
33 In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth.”


34 And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. 36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” [2] 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.

 

[TSIBHOD]

The elect of God will all hear the gospel and be saved. Missionaries will come, a bible will be found, a radio program will be heard..

All the elect will hear and will come.

So are you saying that babies can't be saved (with some possible extreme exceptions like John the Baptist and--of course--Jesus)? Or are you saying that babies can hear the gospel, and if so, how?

 

[cygnusx1]

So are you saying that babies can't be saved (with some possible extreme exceptions like John the Baptist and--of course--Jesus)? Or are you saying that babies can hear the gospel, and if so, how?

what is being said over and over , is that concerning babies , we just do not know .......... God hasn't told us .

Also a person in the last moments of their life we have no absolute assurance that they didn't turn to the Lord .......... I hope my Grandparents did.

Those in other countries who have never heared the Gospel is a different situation , but again God's arm isn't short , He can reach anyone and we send missionaries , Bibles , Radio , Sattelite broadcasts out to reach all nations .....

But please understand 2 things

1. Every single Elect person is certain to be saved , not one shall be lost.

2. Even if a person had the means to believe (radio , Bible , Preacher) it still needs God's Regeneration to open their eyes.

 

[rnmomof7]

So are you saying that babies can't be saved (with some possible extreme exceptions like John the Baptist and--of course--Jesus)? Or are you saying that babies can hear the gospel, and if so, how?

No, I did not say that. I said I do not believe they are automatically saved because they are "innocent" .
Scripture does not teach an age of innocence or age of accountability. In fact scripture indicates just the opposite.

Men may not run in and make up doctrine to fill in the holes. That is what a belief in the general salvation of children under 7 does.

What I have said is there IS scriptural evidence that God can and does work even in the womb of the mother on his elect children.
We know that we are born in sin.
We know God is just and that the judge of the world will do right.

That is our knowledge base on this issue.
So in faith we can believe that God chooses to save some or all of the infants and small children that die.

There are not 2 kinds of people in heaven, those that deserved to be saved and those that were saved by grace..
Saved infants were judged guilty and then saved by Gods mercy and grace, not because they deserve it

 

[Imblessed]

No, I did not say that. I said I do not believe they are automatically saved because they are "innocent" .
Scripture does not teach an age of innocence or age of accountability. In fact scripture indicates just the opposite.

Men may not run in and make up doctrine to fill in the holes. That is what a belief in the general salvation of children under 7 does.

What I have said is there IS scriptural evidence that God can and does work even in the womb of the mother on his elect children.
We know that we are born in sin.
We know God is just and that the judge of the world will do right.

That is our knowledge base on this issue.
So in faith we can believe that God chooses to save some or all of the infants and small children that die.

There are not 2 kinds of people in heaven, those that deserved to be saved and those that were saved by grace..
Saved infants were judged guilty and then saved by Gods mercy and grace, not because they deserve it

amen to that, I think you explained it very very well. Men just can't stand the thought that they don't KNOW what happens to infants or babies who die, so they try to come up with all sorts of theories, when in fact, the bible just does not say.

That is what any good Reformed or Calvinists would say. We just don't know, and we trust God will do the right things.

 

[MrJim]

But if all are predestined before the foundation of the world then the point is that it's all said and done and you'll just not know until you get to heaven. I would think that would be a "pure" calvinist view...having been a former calvinist for 10 years.