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Abortions in US decline again, likely due to Obamacare contraceptive access

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KarateCowboy

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It's not morally sick...it's exactly what I said it was, a realistic view of the way things are. (IE: pragmatic)

If you're going to push for a system where we conceal information about sex from teenagers, fight tooth & nail to restrict contraception access, and back economic policies that would leave a would-be single mother or low-income house hold high and dry with regards to taking on the (expensive) task of parenthood. Expect more women to seek pregnancy termination options. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.
So, this is the thing: you're not talking to me. I am not some human interface to The Preborn Equality Collective Mind. I'm a person. Not a facet on a giant rock. Stop treating me like one of a thousand heads on a hydra.

I am not doing any of the things you're describing.

Stop it.
 
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KarateCowboy

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Pornography has shown to mess up with your brain and make you really dependent on it, later you become tolerant and try to do other stuff. It is an issue since people get into it from children hood.

And thanks for giving me the reason that sex is made for "mating".
There's a lot of science behind what you're describing. Down to the sensitivity and number of dopamine receptors in the brain. Then the sexual hedonists tell believers that we are the ones who hate science.
 
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KarateCowboy

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Believe it or not, I actually think the slavery analogy is even more apt than what you've described - I could draw more parallels highlighting even more double standards by the pro-choice crowd. But the tenor of your responses in this thread provide a good example of how the pro-life movement can't get out of its own way in order to have a productive discussion about how to effectively reduce the number of abortions, despite what I believe is a solid moral and rhetorical basis for their position. Instead of just talking to people, you've repeatedly gone on these mini-rants that seem to be more about pious chest-thumping than about real solutions. IME, that's both common in pro-life circles and wholly unconvincing to anybody outside of them.
Well come on. When people are talking at you like you're one of many heads on a hydra, rather than an individual, attributing all these things to you that are inaccurate, then pushing back assertively is appropriate.
 
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iluvatar5150

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Well come on. When people are talking at you like you're one of many heads on a hydra, rather than an individual, attributing all these things to you that are inaccurate, then pushing back assertively is appropriate.

Except that's not at all what happened - that's entirely a figment of your imagination. Your first foray into this thread was to write, "Safe homicide... the only kind, right? I think the derangement is near demonic levels when someone starts talking about safe homicide." You came out with guns blazing and in subsequent responses, nobody talked about you as if you were a figurehead for the pro-life movement. The closest anyone got to what you described was @ThatRobGuy, who, a handful of times, used "you" in a way that was very clearly directed at a global "you" and not you personally.

You're the one who was antagonistic and who escalated things, not the people with whom you're arguing.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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So, this is the thing: you're not talking to me. I am not some human interface to The Preborn Equality Collective Mind. I'm a person. Not a facet on a giant rock. Stop treating me like one of a thousand heads on a hydra.

I am not doing any of the things you're describing.

Stop it.

As @iluvatar5150 mentioned, I was referring to the GOP/Pro-life movement as a whole, not "you" in particular.


However, with that said, some of the things you mentioned demonstrates that you share, as least in some ways, overlapping ideologies with the group I was referring to.

When I asked you for your roadmap for a workable public policy, you mentioned criminalization and public stigmatization, and mentioned absolutely nothing about providing policies and programs that may help young, single, and/or low income people take on the (expensive) task of raising a child. You do understand that most women don't skip gleefully into the clinic and say "shucks, that was fun" when it's over, then head out for a celebratory drink, right? It's an bad experience for all involved, in most cases, and a decision they wished they were never faced with in the first place.

That's why the solutions I presented are more in tune with the idea of society saying to these women "don't worry, you got this! We've got your back! If you need some financial help, you've got it"

But since many (red) states are trying to remove those things and almost make it a punitive thing against the women for their "sexual immorality", they're faced with a very difficult decision.

That's why so many folks have the perception that "conservatives care about children... right up until the time they're born"

I'll ask my original question to you in another way.

An inner city woman, who grew up in a state with a sexual education program that was lacking, gets pregnant due to incorrect usage of contraception from not having all the facts about the proper ways to use it. She makes minimum wage, same goes for her husband. They already have a child, they're barely scraping by in a small 2-bedroom apartment with a beat up old car, and next to nothing as far as savings or an emergency fund is considered.

(and no, this isn't some contrived "extreme" example to put you on the spot...I used this example based on the statistics about women who get abortions...

Demographics

Nearly 2/3 of women who have abortions already have children, half live below the federal poverty line, and 3/4 lived in poverty, themselves, as children)

She knows she can't possibly afford another child, as even with the current welfare benefits that are in place, it's not going to be enough money to cover all their bills and feed 2 mouths at home.

What is your plan to help her? You could encourage her to carry the child to term and give them up to put them in a foster home, but one would also have to acknowledge that only 13% of kids who end up in that system actually get adopted (8% if they're not white) and eventually get kicked out on their butts at age 18 without a penny to their name (thus creating more societal ills). Not a great thing for the child I'd think you'd agree...

To me, the solutions would be fairly simple...
Look at Switzerland...they have an abortion rate that's only about 1/3 of what ours is. What they also have, programs that include monthly allowances per child, and a tax program that heavily benefits households with children. However, in the US, systems like the ones they have in Switzerland are immediately stigmatized as "evil socialism" by one of our political parties who'd prefer to give the tax benefits to people who are already rich in the name of trickle-down economics.
 
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KarateCowboy

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Except that's not at all what happened - that's entirely a figment of your imagination.

OK yeah so I don't need to deal with this kind of condescending arrogance. Not only that, but then you say the only example of someone doing what I describe is the examples of people doing what I describe, which you describe in the same way I'm getting at. I really hate when I try to talk on a person to person basis and get treated like Borg representative. I don't need that.

That said, it's incontrovertibly true that killing the preborn is homicide so "guns blazing" is ridiculous hyperbole fake drama.
 
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FireDragon76

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KarateCowboy

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FireDragon76

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That's a lot of child murder. More dead than the Civil War.

My point is that making abortion illegal did not reduce abortion rates substantially, and it lead to many risks for women.
 
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KarateCowboy

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My point is that making abortion illegal did not reduce abortion rates substantially, and it lead to many risks for women.
It's almost as if opposing equality and violating the basic human rights of the pre-born were just a monstrous, evil thing in ANY situation.
 
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Not David

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Estimates of abortions in the 1950's range from several hundred thousand, to up to 1.2 million per year. One estimate, based on extrapolating from North Carolina in 1967, put the number at around 800,000.

Lessons from Before Roe: Will Past be Prologue?
There is a big difference between 200 thousand and 1 million abortions. Plus since Roe vs Wade, more than 50 million abortions were performed.
 
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iluvatar5150

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OK yeah so I don't need to deal with this kind of condescending arrogance. Not only that, but then you say the only example of someone doing what I describe is the examples of people doing what I describe, which you describe in the same way I'm getting at. I really hate when I try to talk on a person to person basis and get treated like Borg representative. I don't need that.

I don’t know what to tell you. I re-read the thread; it didn’t go down the way you think it did and you apparently misunderstood at least a few posts. The thing you hate only exists in your head.
 
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FireDragon76

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Seems like you're falling in the trap of making "better" the enemy of "perfect".

Agreed, but that's part and parcel of an ideology that is essentially religious in nature, with self-righteousness at its core.
 
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FireDragon76

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It astonishes me that some people have a lot of lack of faith in people controlling themselves. We are rational for a lot of stuff but not for sex that we know is for procreation?

That's not a realistic view of the human condition.

I think the point is you can detest abortion all you want but the American conservative political strategy is actually not a particularly effective way to deal with abortion, given that there were many abortions prior to Roe vs. Wade, when Americans ostensibly paid more homage to "conservative sexual ethics".

And BTW, haven't you ever watched Mad Men? You should some time. It's actually remarkably realistic as to how things really worked back then.
 
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Not David

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That's not a realistic view of the human condition.

I think the point is you can detest abortion all you want but the American conservative political strategy is actually not a particularly effective way to deal with abortion, given that there were many abortions prior to Roe vs. Wade, when Americans ostensibly paid more homage to "conservative sexual ethics".

And BTW, haven't you ever watched Mad Men? You should some time. It's actually remarkably realistic as to how things really worked back then.
I might search more into the issue of abortion in the early 20th century but even if abortion was possible was not as numerous as nowadays.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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My point is that making abortion illegal did not reduce abortion rates substantially, and it lead to many risks for women.

Yep...that's why when people try to make analogies comparing it to the institutions of slavery, or the holocaust, they aren't valid comparisons.

When it comes to using criminalization as a means of behavior modification, it fails miserably for demands that can be met in an easily concealable manner.

You can't hide a plantation...
You can't for a National socialist government & secretly exterminate millions of people in giant facilities without people noticing something is up...

However, things like black market abortions, the drug trade, cybercrime... those can be easily concealed from the public eye, therefore laws pertaining to those things aren't nearly as effective as other kinds of laws because one can easily hide the behavior from the public eye.

The easier something is to do without the majority of the public seeing it, the harder it is to control that behavior with the threat of law. Plain and simple.

Illegal gambling and prostitution would be other examples...it's "illegal", yet, the markets for those two things are huge.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Estimates of abortions in the 1950's range from several hundred thousand, to up to 1.2 million per year. One estimate, based on extrapolating from North Carolina in 1967, put the number at around 800,000.

Lessons from Before Roe: Will Past be Prologue?

Yep, I've seen those stats before...

Thus the reason that I mentioned in this thread that if the goal is truly to reduce the number of abortions, one has to go with measures that create alternatives that, in the mind of the person who's in that situation, viable.

Making it illegal only serves the purpose of being able to catch a tiny fraction of them in the act, and lock them up, but does nothing to reduce the actual abortion rate in any meaningful way.
 
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FireDragon76

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All my grandparents supported Roe, despite the fact they were mostly churchgoers and not particularly inclined to feminism. They lived through times when abortion was illegal and knew that reality. Many young pro-life advocates now days have no direct knowledge of that time period, so they are susceptible to simplistic narratives about what Roe vs. Wade actually changed.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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...to add a little to this thread, it becomes an even more tough situation for people who've had unplanned pregnancies because the party that insists that "that child being born is a right", also tries to hammer home the idea that nearly all aspects that are needed to effectively raise a child are "a privilege".

In a nutshell:
"That child being born is a right!"

...but also
"Being able to give your child healthcare is a privilege...so we shouldn't have to pay for that"
"Being able to send your child to a decent school is a privilege...so we shouldn't have to pay for that"
"Child care for when you go to work is a privilege...so we shouldn't have to pay for that"
"Being able to provide decent food & clothing for your child is a privilege...so we shouldn't have to pay for that"

It's very a much a "you have to have this child!...but I don't want to pay a dime more in taxes for programs that can help you actually do that effectively"

I've never been actually given an answer when I've asked these questions about how they expect a low income household to accomplish these things after the child is born, they typically ignore those parts of my post and go back to verbalizing how abortion is murder and it shouldn't be allowed.
 
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