abortion

[Flynmonkie]

The discussion is petty, and doesn't make any sense.

I will never understand how anyone can not comprehend this.

I think the true core of this discussion is not IF abortion is wrong....IF MANS laws against abortion are accurate enough for Christians to really become involved.

I really have never seen any Christian believe that Abortion was right in ANY sense of the word. (unless I am totally naive on this one) Christian are being put in the middle of Mans sinful Laws..again as usual....forcing them to fit their morals into Mans way of thinking...it is very personal and very hard to pick a side (dealing with Law) when you bring that into perspective. Such as some of the examples about the imperfections on both sides of the debate of passing laws for or against.

 

[EternalotnemeM]

I understand all of that. That's why I said I don't even think religion should even come into the debate. You can say the exact same things that I have said, without doing so from a Christian standpoint. It's about standing up for what is obviously right, it's about protecting the rights of those children and the would be children (if you want to put it like that), who can not do so.

Like I said, I don't even know why this is open to debate, I don't know why it's not already illegal and why is hasn't been from the very start of things. I don't understand how anyone can promote such trite as it being "the mother's choice", and being "pro-choice", and on and on.

I don't know how anyone can defend such a horrible act.

 

[Flynmonkie]

I understand all of that. That's why I said I don't even think religion should even come into the debate. You can say the exact same things that I have said, without doing so from a Christian standpoint. It's about standing up for what is obviously right, it's about protecting the rights of those children and the would be children (if you want to put it like that), who can not do so.

OH YES I agree!!! There is no debate on that issue from me at all! We should share our knowledge about God. The problem is that man fights back with "ok so were gonna say its wrong to appease you but in doing so we are going to make rules and regulations on what is allowable or not!" ....I/W such as the recent ban...if you read about it the laws are very vague on what will be deemed medically nessasary. And whom really has the right to choose that. Doctors can make mistakes by advising parents that a child or mother will not lead a healthy life, or By saying there will be no problems to endure. Just not really convinced that leaving those decisions soley up to the government or doctors is fair. I happen to believe there are instances where abortion is mediclly nessasary. I could not or would not ever want to force anyones hand on that issue. Some women would loose their lives over a child atributing it to Gods will. Others whom have other children and responsibilities..might not make that same choice. I certainly cannot be the judge on that one. And I am not sure there is any Human that can. You know what I mean?

I just Thank God every day that my home is not of this earth. This is not my final home, and keep my eyes on him at all times! Pray Pray Pray!

 

[EternalotnemeM]

Then the same people might as well start a campaign to make all murder legal, because it is the exact same thing.

 

[Serapha]

http://imc.gsm.com/demos/dddemo/consult/rel_abor.htm

That gives an overview of many of the major denominations and their stance on abortion.

Hi there!



I have seen that listing before, and it is somewhat misleading. I know that the American Baptist Church leaves the decisions on many social issues up to the independent churches, therefore, some American Baptists churches support abortion while others do not. I don't know a Southern Baptist that supports abortion... and the link didn't work for them.



and overall, it doesn't matter what we think, or what a denominational stance is, but what the Word of God says...

Thou shalt not kill.

Kills is translated as either premeditate, accidental, or as avenger.


That pretty well sums it up... I don't have to justify the word translations... other will insure that the definition is "changed" to fit the circumstance. It should be understood that not only Jewish law carried strict ruling about unborn children, but so did the other codes of the day. And... yet, in Jewish understanding, the fetus wasn't considered a life until 40 days after conception.

I'll stick with "do not kill".


~serapha~

 

[nadroj1985]

Then the same people might as well start a campaign to make all murder legal, because it is the exact same thing.

Just wanted to let you know that I'm pro-life as well; I was kinda playing devil's advocate back there But the thing is, those who are pro-choice obviously don't think abortion is the exact same thing as murder. Like you, I can't separate the two, but some people have.

That was an interesting point btw about the Jews views on when life starts, Serapha. I'd never heard that before......

 

[Flynmonkie]

But what about my best friend who's body is allergic to the pregnancy hormone..it became a choice of her life or both of their lives?

Or the woman with a tubal pregnancy, I am not even sure about procedures that could transplant it. Again loosing two lives?

What about the babies that the doctors say will never live more than a few days if they live at all and will be miserable, yet that does not happen?

I know what I might choose, but is it really fair to take that control out of someones hands and put it in the government or doctors hands alone?

I just keep seeing murder and I do not really see anyone saying anything about these situations??

 

[Andre]

But what about my best friend who's body is allergic to the pregnancy hormone..it became a choice of her life or both of their lives?

Well then for Her getting pregnant is not a choice, if she is pregnant though and it is 100% guaranteed that she will die if she keeps the child I wait untill her situation is critical and there's nothing else that can be done to save the life of the Child and then I'd let her chose.

Or the woman with a tubal pregnancy, I am not even sure about procedures that could transplant it. Again loosing two lives?

I'm not sure what a tubal pregnancy is

What about the babies that the doctors say will never live more than a few days if they live at all and will be miserable, yet that does not happen?

I still don't think it's a choice we can make, God can work miracles, and if it's His will that the Child dies a few days after birth, then so be it, we don't have the right to end that life earlier.

I know what I might choose, but is it really fair to take that control out of someones hands and put it in the government or doctors hands alone?

It's not something we have the right to chose, it's something that goes agains the principals of God, it's a sin and we just can't do it, it's not up to my mom do decide if I should live or not, it's up to God.

 

[ufonium2]

Flynmonkie, I understand these are hard calls, but let me share my feelings about them:

I've had 23 years on this earth. I've wasted most of them. There's nothing about me that makes my life more important than anyone else's. If I got pregnant tommorow, and the doctor told me I would likely die in childbirth, I would still carry the child. Why? Because my life isn't more valuable than my child's. Why should my child die so that I can live? We all have to die eventually, and what better way to die than bringing another life into the world?

If alligators were attacking you, would you throw your child to them so you would have time to run away? Of course not. We should be willing to die for our children, not vice-versa.

If both lives are at risk, it's still a risk I would take. Again, we are all going to die sometime, so whether I die in childbirth or get hit by a bus or get cancer, I'm still gonna die. I've had a good run, 23 years to make something of myself, and now my child deserves at least that. If the doctor says the baby will die, I would still give it a chance. Better for it to die naturally than for me to kill it, and the doctor may be wrong anyway.

Regarding babies that will be deformed in some way, that's a super-slippery-slope. What degree of deformity warrants abortion? Brain damage? Missing organs? Missing toes? Nearsightedness? If an adult is seriously injured in a car accident we don't kill them, (thank God) but if a child may be born with those same problems we should kill them? Who are we to judge who deserves to live?

 

[Flynmonkie]

Flynmonkie, I understand these are hard calls, but let me share my feelings about them:

I've had 23 years on this earth. I've wasted most of them. There's nothing about me that makes my life more important than anyone else's. If I got pregnant tommorow, and the doctor told me I would likely die in childbirth, I would still carry the child. Why? Because my life isn't more valuable than my child's. Why should my child die so that I can live? We all have to die eventually, and what better way to die than bringing another life into the world?

If alligators were attacking you, would you throw your child to them so you would have time to run away? Of course not. We should be willing to die for our children, not vice-versa.

If both lives are at risk, it's still a risk I would take. Again, we are all going to die sometime, so whether I die in childbirth or get hit by a bus or get cancer, I'm still gonna die. I've had a good run, 23 years to make something of myself, and now my child deserves at least that. If the doctor says the baby will die, I would still give it a chance. Better for it to die naturally than for me to kill it, and the doctor may be wrong anyway.

Regarding babies that will be deformed in some way, that's a super-slippery-slope. What degree of deformity warrants abortion? Brain damage? Missing organs? Missing toes? Nearsightedness? If an adult is seriously injured in a car accident we don't kill them, (thank God) but if a child may be born with those same problems we should kill them? Who are we to judge who deserves to live?

Hi!
I personally agree with your views on this...but feel very uncomfortable pushing that choice on others you know? I mean God gives us all choices...he doesn't force us to believe in him...So who am I to vote on a Law that is so imperfect in the first place that would strip that choice in the name of God for others..I think that is the last way to try to show Gods love for him to change hearts. This is so very personal between a woman and God (and lets not forget the man too - that is another flaw with all of this the fathers rights nt being represented) This has been weighing so heavily on me...I probably will not vote at all. But I tend not to get too mixed up in voting for laws that do not have a clear basis. I had no idea some of this stuff was still leagal...it is illegal here and it has been so long...the definitions have changed!! UGH!

 

[CaffineAddict]

Maybe I can shead a diffrent light on this subject. I am adopted. My birth parents obviously couldn't handle the responsibility of having a child, so the other two options are adoption or abortion. So when people bring up the abortion subject I can't help but think that I could have been one of them, I could have been aborted. Now, this world is filled with pain and strife, but it is also filled with love if you just look hard enough. I am glad to have lived so long, I value my live and I am gratefull that my birth parents were not tempted to simply "make the problem go away"

To all those who say a woman has a right over her own body, I say yes, she had the choise to risk pregnancy or not, but once conspetion happens, there are suddenly 2 bodys of two diffrent people who both have rights.

Now, if there is a medical reason why an abotion has to be done or a choise has to be made, I understand. And as for rape victims, it's not the choise I would make, but I understand the arugument. But as a form of birth control abotion is not.

Birth is just a stage of life, a transformation when one can explore the world and interact with the other people in it, that is why we celebrate them. Just as death is a stage, we do not end in death, nor did we begin in birth, we are eternal, only the medium of our existance changes. I wonder if they have death day celebrations in heaven?

Ok, rant over.

 

[EternalotnemeM]

I'm going to take my opinion one step more, just so you can all know fully what I believe.

Under NO circumstance do I believe an abortion is ok, period. Whatever the circumstances that the mother and father are under, it in no way should decide if a living being is denied of life, a life that each and every one of us here share.

Is it the childs fault that it was the brought forth by a rape? Of course not, it didn't have any say in the matter. For those who are rape victoms, having an abortion will not wipe away and clean your mind and soul from the horrible thing that has been done to you. When you try to say abortion is ok if someone has been raped, it is simply another case of someone being blind, and looking for a way out of an uncomfortable situation.

The cycle goes on all over the world, a man is trobled in his youth by someone (I know it's not always the case), he grows up troubled and commits the horrible act of rape on a woman who then get's pregnant, and from there the pregnant woman decides to have the innocent child growing inside of her put to death, in hopes that it will end the cycle.

It will not though, the cycle of innocent killing, the hurting of innocent people, the cycle of being horrible to fellow innocent man will NEVER end through the means of that very same killing of an innocent, that very same hurting of an innocent, that very same being horrible to an innocent.

The only way to end the cruel cycle, is through the love of God...God himself.

The best way to end the cycle, is to give a CHANCE at life to those you never had a say in the matter. If the poor mother who had such a horrible act done to her does not feel that she should nor can, take care of the child then there are plenty of loving and adoring familles out there who would love to take that very child into their home...to give that child the love, God.

The ending point, as I said, is that a growing child has no say of it's own. A growing child is innocent, one of Gods children, an example of pure love. To snuff that very love out, to end a wonderful thing, is hurtful to so many people, and unfair to the child.

Through acts of violence and horrible acts, examples of love can come forth. A child is the one of the most ultimate examples of love that we have here on Earth.

You don't want me to get into the topic of rape itself. While I believe that no harm should be done to innocent people, and especially children, I am all for the punnishment of the wicked, the punnishment of those who do the harm to the very innocent people that I'm talking about.

Also, I obviously believe that women (and men) have choices to make, and that they should be allowed to make those choices. The choice is weather they should have sex in the first place, to chance a birth which they might not want. That is the choice that everyone must make, but once you make THAT choice, be prepared to deal with what could happen. Go ahead with the action...but understand the possible reactions as well, and be ready to accept whatever may come.

 

[ufonium2]

Hi!
I personally agree with your views on this...but feel very uncomfortable pushing that choice on others you know? I mean God gives us all choices...he doesn't force us to believe in him...So who am I to vote on a Law that is so imperfect in the first place that would strip that choice in the name of God for others..

Forget about abortion for a minute. Take another crime, like theft. I believe theft is wrong. If a politician wanted to legalize theft, should I keep quiet so I'm not "pushing my choice on others"?

The problem with being human is we have no absolute universal standards of right and wrong. I believe theft is wrong, so does the Bible, and so does my government, but obviously lots of criminals don't. It's up to us as a society, and our government as our representative, to make laws that protect humanity from people whose beliefs about what is right and wrong hurt other people.

Aborition is no more a choice than theft is. I've heard "you can't legislate morality" my whole life, but of course you can, and we do every day. Everything is, at its heart, a moral issue, because there are no absolute laws. Serial killers don't believe murder is wrong, but we force our morality on them. Thieves think theft is a good way to make a living, but we force our morality on them. If everyone got to make their own choices about what was right and wrong, we would all be afraid to leave the house.

 

[feo]

Yes, a sperm is not a person and neither is a fetus.

Life Starts @ Conception- Just Because a Fetus Isnt Completely Developed Doesnt Mean That its Not a Human Being. i keep Hearing Other Arguments: About Financial Situations And Paying For Children- and it Makes me Sick. putting a Cost on Human life undermines The Very Gift God Gives us.

i Know my Own Mother Was Very Young When She Had me. Was She Financially Secure? No. Does She Ever Pay For Anything For me? No. But i am still Thankful She "chose" to Have me, despite How Poor she is. i am Thankful That i've Been Taught Responsibility And Independance.

You Ask How Many Christians Are Willing to TAKE CARE and Adopt? I Recently Told my Friend (who is Pro Choice) That if She EVER Gets Pregnant, to Give ME her Child and id Take Care of it. i Have Several Friends Who Would do The Same... The Pro Life Org That i am in on Campus is *always* assisting Mothers who Chose Life, despite Econimic Difficulties. America's Definition of "poor" is Much Different Than That of Overseas. hell, The Homeless in America are Considered "rich" to Other people's Standards. you Guys Rant on About how a "single working mother" cant Afford Such things, but i Honestly Wonder if we Realize how Poor One Can Get.

Justifing Murder to Save $ is Wrong on Many Levels- it is Something i Will Not Tolerate.

 

[Flynmonkie]

Forget about abortion for a minute. Take another crime, like theft. I believe theft is wrong. If a politician wanted to legalize theft, should I keep quiet so I'm not "pushing my choice on others"?

The problem with being human is we have no absolute universal standards of right and wrong. I believe theft is wrong, so does the Bible, and so does my government, but obviously lots of criminals don't. It's up to us as a society, and our government as our representative, to make laws that protect humanity from people whose beliefs about what is right and wrong hurt other people.

Aborition is no more a choice than theft is. I've heard "you can't legislate morality" my whole life, but of course you can, and we do every day. Everything is, at its heart, a moral issue, because there are no absolute laws. Serial killers don't believe murder is wrong, but we force our morality on them. Thieves think theft is a good way to make a living, but we force our morality on them. If everyone got to make their own choices about what was right and wrong, we would all be afraid to leave the house.

HI!
No not at all should we keep quiet!!! We are commanded by his word otherwise!!! We should vote, and if we don't like the laws because they are not clear enough we should push for change. By educating ourselves, educating our own and helping them into office of a position of change and sharing Gods word as Christ would have.

I highlighted another line of your post because I think it is important to consider we as Christians are outnumbered! We are living in a sinful world, our home is not of this world, it is in heaven. We have also been commanded to obey our government.

But the truth of the matter is we are dealing with mans sinful imperfect law. These things were even recorded in the bible. It has never changed the secular world forcing their opinions on us!

You can bet I will vote when I see that the laws are cut-and-dry and there is no catch. I cannot say that some of the medical conditions listed above would be considered murder. As long as I feel uncomfortable with that...I will refrain from voting.

 

[Flynmonkie]

Under NO circumstance do I believe an abortion is ok, period. Whatever the circumstances that the mother and father are under, it in no way should decide if a living being is denied of life, a life that each and every one of us here share.

Is it the childs fault that it was the brought forth by a rape? Of course not, it didn't have any say in the matter. For those who are rape victoms, having an abortion will not wipe away and clean your mind and soul from the horrible thing that has been done to you. When you try to say abortion is ok if someone has been raped, it is simply another case of someone being blind, and looking for a way out of an uncomfortable situation.

I can totally understand what you are saying here!

Just wanted to interject .....I am the product of a rape. My very faithful mother kept me. But both she and I believe I could never force someone else to do this. Emotionally it is so very hard, I think it becomes between them and God. The last thing a woman wants to hear about when she deals with something so traumatic is God would want her to be forced to keep this baby! She will more than likely resent God....you know?

I also want to point out, think about this, isn't it interesting that there are so many laws that Christians oppose, and seem to have no problem passing. Yet, when it comes to this it seems we are taunted with it. It divides us so much and it is sad. It weighed on my heart so much I decided to try it against the bible. This was my conclusion.

Like I said, Mans Law is imperfect and it is used aganst us moreso than for us. Even though I think it is our duty to vote too. I am one of those people though that feel you will never change peoples hearts by changing laws.....exactly the opposite. Share in a loving way Gods Plan for us with the world and leave that to him. It is his job! He is so much better at it!

 

[Iron Lion]

Under NO circumstance do I believe an abortion is ok, period.

I agree 100%

 

[EternalotnemeM]

I can totally understand what you are saying here!

Emotionally it is so very hard, I think it becomes between them and God. The last thing a woman wants to hear about when she deals with something so traumatic is God would want her to be forced to keep this baby! She will more than likely resent God....you know?

I feel for you and your family and how it must be on you all still to this day, but snuffing out a human life is in no way a reasonable way to make for for a rape. It only continues the hate, the pain, the tears.

Your mother is a good example of the right way to handle things. Kudos to her ineed.
This is how I think of it. Rape is obviously a horrible thing, and it's a shame that some people are so sick that they feel the need to do such a horrible thing. Still, it's a miracle that at times God will allow such a wonderful thing, such a true miracle, such an example of love...a child, to come from such a horrible act.

 

[FreakShiny]

Abortion is an abomination. Nuff said.