abortion

[ShetlandRose]

Clearly MURDER. I am sorrowful for the women who are later haunted with guilt for the destruction of their own child, and also for the men who often push them into that terrible decision. God forgives however.

ShetlandRose

 

[Andre]

If you are pro-choice consider viewing these real abortion pictures, maybe it'll give you a different perspective.

Wanring, these are reall pictures and they are very graphic. (the ones multilated are the result of suctioin abortion, where the fetus is literaly sucked out with a vaccum tube.)

http://blackgenocide.org/photos.html
http://www.cbrinfo.org/World/uk.html
http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/photosassorted/
http://www.holylamb.com/abortion2.htm

 

[Andre]

Post-abortion strees affects just about anyone who has had an abortion, and in some cases leads to suicide.

 

[Holy Warrior]

I'm a med student, and not so long ago we had a lecture from an abortion specialist. He spun various scenarios and asked whether we would agree to give the patient an abortion. I was saddened but not altogether surprised when most of the year (around 260 students) were quite willing to sanction the procedure.
Legally in the UK abortions should only be given if continuation of the pregnancy would cause a greater threat to the mother than the termination. The doctors worm their way around this by rationalising that the mother is more at risk when pregnant than otherwise.

I personally believe that abortion is wrong. No-one can draw the line and say that before a certain point, the foetus is not a human being. In the case where the mother will almost certainly die if the pregnancy is continued I can square with-it's better to save one life than lose two. The rape one I can't quite square with though. It seems to me to be a case of punishing the child for the sins of the father. Regardless of how the child is conceived, it is still one of God's creations and an innocent human being.

 

[raptor13]

i'm not protestant, but Scott Klusendorf is, and im my opinion, he has written one of the greatest pro-life defenses ever.

read it here: http://www.str.org/free/bioethics/Pro-Choice_Wins_IF.pdf

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Abortion=Murder

 

[Bulldog]

Abortion=Murder

It's the killing of an innocent human life, what else could it be?

 

[Pastor_Benjamin]

Abortion is not in line with the word of God. God is the only person who should be in charge of who has the power to live or die Amen.

 

[RhetorTheo]

I think one thing you need to understand about how many protestants view abortion differently from many Catholics has to do with the idea of separation of church and state. IOW, although I think most protestants view abortion as a moral evil on a similar level with war, poverty, disease, and other evils that kill or harm people. Yet many protestants strongly believe in separation of church and state, and therefore do not automatically conclude that Christians should try to get the government to try to force everyone to live by their moral standards. The prophetic role of speaking out against evil is one that is not easily defined in this context. Providing the kinds of help and support that will make fewer abortions seem necessary and speaking out against use of abortion for frivolous reasons are approaches I think most protestants would support.

I think the RCC prefers to be the state-sponsored religion, when possible. As such, it does not struggle as much as many protestants over the proper boundaries between church and government.

Are Protestants personally opposed to murder and rape, but believe they should be legal because we need a separation of church and state? Morality and religion may overlap, but they are not one and the same.

Your post appears to confuse things that are wrong because they are innately wrong, and things that are wrong merely because they are prohibited. It is fine to say, "Abortion is morally neutral, much like swatting a fly, but my church says not to do it just like it tells me to go to church on Sunday. We shouldn't have laws to make people follow church rules." However, IMHO, it is evil to say, "I believe abortion is morally akin to murder, but I think it should be legal to murder children."

 

[RhetorTheo]

The argument about pro-lifers adopting children has always been, and always will be, a foolish argument. There are multi-year waiting periods to get newborns. Adoptive parents often go to Asia to find children because there are not enough available in the U.S. There is no shortage of parents willing to adopt healthy babies. (Babies with severe handicaps, perhaps, but that's a very small percentage of the abortions.)

The implication, that there are orphanages filled with newborns because people are unwilling to adopt healthy newborns, is just false.

 

[Flynmonkie]

Here with this issue we are hitting on the age-old question of Mans Law vs Gods Law. Gods Law in this secular world just does not mix.

As Christians, we are taught, "we are Gods even in the womb". No question in my mind abortion is wrong. Children are a blessing.

But what we as Christians seem to be facing is Mans imperfect laws.

Sure I would love to just run right out and vote No on abortion. (be careful of terminologies now days, they have changed drastically in the past 10 years another example of mans law at work I had to review them again recently)

But the problem is the laws themselves. If you vote no on abortion you have to be concerned on just how much control you will be giving the government over our bodies. What sort of president will that law set? And if they are saying that it is allowed for medical necessity, just who will be the judge of that. Some doctors say a child will not ever live a healthy life, tells the mother to abort. Many times she gives birth to that child and they become the biggest blessing that family has ever had. In other cases, if it is medically nessasary..where is a woman’s personal choice to have faith in God. The laws are flawed and very vague in this direction.

Not to mention my own personal feelings of God allowing us to make a choice. Right or wrong, it is our choice to suffer the punishment for a choice against what Gods will is. Greater is he that is in me than he that is in the world. We set laws for murder, thiefs, etc.....but as time has tested. Murders murder, thief’s steal...no matter what laws are laid down. My concern on this topic however is abortion is very personal, history will repeat itself if it is completely disallowed. We will find those women in the back alleys trying to do this themselves pushed to the point of no compassion. I mean if you think about it..

when they find themselves in this position, where will they turn. The Christians are too busy screaming murder, they cannot go there...and if it is against the Law..they cannot go there....where will they turn?

Then on the other hand if we don't vote against it..we feel that we are not following Gods plan, his word, his Law.

My position at this time based on these scenarios is that I vote to abstain or vote pro-choice, simply because pro-abort the laws are quite vague. But I have to say this new partial birth stuff floored me. I had no idea that after the first trimester and later abortions were legal (abortion is illegal in my state) That I would absolutely vote against when a child can live apart from the mother...but the whole thing is just a complete mess....it is sickening that we as Christians have to deliberate on such atrocity. But I guess what I am saying with all of this is ...educate yourself on what the laws really represent. Educate and support our own into office to try to help change these Laws...And work on changing people’s hearts, through God. Laws historically will not change by "forcing" Christian morals down people’s throats. As he reminds us that this is not our home. We cannot win those hearts God can..God Law is perfection, Mans Law is not…a prime example of the case in point.

 

[ChoirDir]

Here is something I found rather interesting regarding Church History regarding abortion.

At the end of the seventh century, most likely in 692, a council was held in Constantinople, in the dome room of a palace called Trullo, which made 102 canonical regulations. These canons, some of which were previously included in Justinian's civil legislation, are called the canons of the Quinisext council which means that they are taken as the canonical rulings of the fifth and sixth ecumenical councils which issued no canonical decrees.

Canon 91 called for the "penalty of murder" for those who "give drugs for procuring abortion and those who take them to kill the fetus".

 

[Flynmonkie]

Here is something I found rather interesting regarding Church History regarding abortion.

At the end of the seventh century, most likely in 692, a council was held in Constantinople, in the dome room of a palace called Trullo, which made 102 canonical regulations. These canons, some of which were previously included in Justinian's civil legislation, are called the canons of the Quinisext council which means that they are taken as the canonical rulings of the fifth and sixth ecumenical councils which issued no canonical decrees.

Canon 91 called for the "penalty of murder" for those who "give drugs for procuring abortion and those who take them to kill the fetus".

Now if we can only get the secular world to listen?!

 

[EternalotnemeM]

EDIT: Double Post

 

[EternalotnemeM]

But the problem is the laws themselves. If you vote no on abortion you have to be concerned on just how much control you will be giving the government over our bodies. What sort of president will that law set?

The precident that it would set, is pure and simple. The murder, MURDER, of an innocent life is illegal, period. I will never understand the issue. Abortion is murder, there should even be NEED for a "precident" to be set.

So yeah, that's the "precident" that would be set if it was voted to be illegal. It would tell everyone once and for all that the murder of innocent life is against the law.

That sounds like a good thing if you ask me.

God allows us to make whatever choices we want, right or wrong. God also gave us rules to live by as a people, and the murder of innocent life is one of those laws. It is our job as Christians to stand up for those who are not able to speak for theirselves, the innocent children. It is not even OPEN for anyone to decide if they should kill a child or not, they should not be allowed to be given that choice under the laws of the country that we live in.

There is nothing personal about abortion, it isn't the mothers decision to make, it isn't "her body". All of that is asinine trite and I'll say it to anyone who cares to listen. An abortion is a legalized way for criminals to commit murder, pure and simple. In their minds they may not believe that what they are doing is wrong and a sin, but it is, period.

It isn't up to ANYONE to decide if an innocent life should live and die. Not yours, not mine, not the very mother who carries a child. Since the child can not defend itself, or make a decision, it is up to us to stand up for said children.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand why this is open to depate in ANY venue. When you take a living human being, and kill that person, is it not murder? There shouldn't even be a QUESTION as to if this should be against the law or not. Of course it should, there is no other way to look at it, and if you think there is then you are blinded.

This doesn't even need to be a religious or Christian issue to me. It's just common sense to me. Should it be legal for me to go and kill someone I'm angry with? Would it be ok for me to do that simply because God allows me to make a choice? Should we make all murder legal just because God allows me to make a choice of right or wrong? Of course not, that's just insane, just like it's insane that the murder of innocent children is legal.[/QUOTE]

 

[EternalotnemeM]

EDIT: Double Post

 

[nadroj1985]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand why this is open to depate in ANY venue. When you take a living human being, and kill that person, is it not murder? There shouldn't even be a QUESTION as to if this should be against the law or not. Of course it should, there is no other way to look at it, and if you think there is then you are blinded.

You miss the point of the abortion debate. The question is not whether or not killing an innocent life is wrong. The question is...when does life begin? This is the main crux of the debate, and that's why there is so much disagreement.

 

[Bulldog]

You miss the point of the abortion debate. The question is not whether or not killing an innocent life is wrong. The question is...when does life begin? This is the main crux of the debate, and that's why there is so much disagreement.

Its obvoius the fetus is living, so and ots a human, so its a human life.

 

[Flynmonkie]

This doesn't even need to be a religious or Christian issue to me. It's just common sense to me. Should it be legal for me to go and kill someone I'm angry with? Would it be ok for me to do that simply because God allows me to make a choice? Should we make all murder legal just because God allows me to make a choice of right or wrong? Of course not, that's just insane, just like it's insane that the murder of innocent children is legal.

You are so right in this regard......unfortunatly we live in a world where evolution is freely taught..and science seems to render explaination better than God. It is most certainly insane!

 

[EternalotnemeM]

You miss the point of the abortion debate. The question is not whether or not killing an innocent life is wrong. The question is...when does life begin? This is the main crux of the debate, and that's why there is so much disagreement.

I have missed nothing. When I see dead babies, formed babies torn to pieces legally, when I see a flesh and blood human being be torn apart, and other such things, I have a problem with that.

When I see a person who at a time had blood flowing, a beating heart, breathing, moving, I see a person, a living being.

What else am I supposed to see?

Besides all of that, I have a main point.

Once a life has started to be created, it isn't up to any of us to stop said creation. Once the seed has been planted and the egg slowly begins to grow, life has begun, period. Even if you have a twisted view of the fist few stages of a life as not being a human being, when you end it even in those early stages you are STILL killing a human being. The person has begun to form, and you not went and stole life from the being it would have grown into a living and breathing human being, just as you and I.

To me, once a life has started to form and then between that time that it is first created and it is born you kill it and erase it from living, regardless of what time that you do so, it's the murder of another.

The discussion is petty, and doesn't make any sense.

Let's say that in the first month you don't believe that life has begun for that child, let's just say that in theory. Let's say you believe that it's not murder to kill that being. Well, even in that thinking when you cease that life from being able to grow into full development, you are STILL stooping life in it's tracks, you are still robbing a being which at one time was well on it's way to become just as you and I are, you STILL committed murder.

I will never understand how anyone can not comprehend this.