You came into the conversation out of context. I was responding to NxNW about the claims people make by using the bible examples that God is evil. Therefore, it is only fair that I can use the same bible to show these examples in context that God is not evil and including his nature and that they cannot apply human views of morality onto God as there are things we cannot know or understand. You cannot apply science to the bible in that way nor can you apply it to morality.
I'd argue that again, until you can demonstrate the god in question exists, it's all unevidenced assertion regardless. You may as well be arguing about whether Darth Vader was good or evil based on what was written about him in the Star Wars scripts.
And you can certainly apply science to any testable claim the bible makes. The key word is testable though. That being said, if all you have to go on is untestable claims, then you are probably not justified in believing the claims to begin with.
God didn’t create evil people. People make themselves evil. Evil cannot exist unless someone acts evil.
That's a cop out. If god is all knowing and created people (as virtually all christians believe), then he created them both with the capacity to be evil, and with the foreknowledge that they would become evil in time. That puts the ultimate responsibility back on him. He could have made people who would not have chosen to commit evil deeds.
And before you try to argue the free will rebuttal, it doesn't apply. I am not a serial killer, and I would never choose to become a serial killer. Theoretically I could become a serial killer, but I would never make the decision to do so. That's just the way my brain is wired.
If god created me that way, then he could have created everyone else with similar wiring so that they wouldn't ever become serial killers. Likewise, this argument can be used for any evil behaviour.
If he decided to create people wired to become serial killers one day, knowing that they'd go out on a murder spree at some point, then ultimately that's on him too. He could have created people not to do that, and decided to do so anyway.
How do you measure that basic morality objectively
I addressed this in slightly more detail in another post, but it largely is based upon well-being. That's not to say there aren't possibly grey areas, but the vast majority of moral questions really aren't that hard to figure out, and a god is not needed to do so.
Not if they were given free will. God respects our free will and if he kept interfering in our lives and denying our right to free choice then we would not be humans capable of love but puppets. Just because God is all knowing does not mean he can interfere with things. He is all things.
You can not have all things happening according to gods plan, and have free will at the same time. They are mutually exclusive propositions. It's a contradiction to say both are happening at the same time.
For example, could you ever decide to do something that doesn't align with god's plan?
If yes, then not all things happen according to god's plan.
If no, then you don't have free will.
If God created people with free will and they choose to do evil and God warned them of the consequences and then they still choose to reject God and do evil He has every right to make judgment and punish evil doers. God set down the law and the bible is clear that everyone knows Gods laws in their hearts and their conscience so are without excuse. It also mentions that all know about God through nature, so it is not as if we have a clear choice of whether to acknowledge God of deny him.
Romans 2:15
They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
Romans 1:18-21
1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, 19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened.
I can do that too...
Ephesians 1:11 - All things are done according to God's plan and decision; and God chose us to be his own people in union with Christ because of his own purpose, based on what he had decided from the very beginning.
So what you have is a biblical contradiction. All things are done according to god's plan based on what he decided in the beginning. That means anyone that "chose" to reject him was acting in accordance with the plan that god decided on right from the start.
If the people that rejected god were acting in accordance with the plan that god himself devised, then it was god's decision to have those people reject him. It would therefore be heinously immoral and sadistic to kill and then torture those people in the afterlife.
That does not work as explained above. The point is people claim God is evil. The moment they do that they are taking an objective position like they know everything like God. They are playing God when they do this and yet they say God is wrong when he plays God and judges objectively. If anyone is in more of a position to do this, it is God who actually knows all the circumstances to judge fairly and justly.
Nonsense. I don't know everything about Jeffrey Dahmer, however I don't need to know everything about his life story or personality to know he committed evil acts.
To say you can't make a moral judgment about a person (or god) until you have a complete and total understanding of that person or thing is silly. If morality has an objective basis, then god is also bound to that moral standard. If he commits an evil or immoral act, he's not excused from it because he has immense power.... if anything he should be held to a higher standard than we are.
No I would not assume and that is what some atheist do when they make accusations against God. They assume that events happened a certain way according to they perspective. But that is contradictory to subjectivity where everyone has a different perspective and there is no way to objective determine what is ultimately right or wrong.
As mentioned above God created us with free will. Where there is good there is evil and where there is love there is hate. Otherwise these things have no meaning. Yet these things define us and allow us to love and be loved and we know that potentially life is worth living rather than not existing. So maybe that is just the way it must be for us to be here.
I do not know exactly how evil and sin came into the equation. All I know is we are all sinners and we cannot overcome sin and make ourselves right with God without Christ sacrifice and being born again.
Citation needed
