abortion?

[arj1981]

Your forgetting that pro-choicers have the ability to determine the exact time that God instills His Spirit into the "genetic material" later known as a human being...

Y do u keep acting like all pro-choicers are Christians or even monotheists? Answer this one for me please. Zairsmith, the point wasn't that our opinions MATTER to GOD. the point was that OUR OPINIONS DON'T MATTER to anyone else who doesn't share them. That's why ALL of life is all a gray area no matter "how u look at it." It all depends on who u r talking to. For instance, an atheist compared to a baptist IS going to have a DIFFERENT opinion about GOD and NOTHING we say will convince of anything else. I didn't say all those people will varying opinions are CORRECT. No. no. no. no. no. Like in the case with Sketch validity or viability ISN'T what I'm arguing. That's the conclusion u keep jumping to for some reason when I'm not saying that. I'm just saying life is all subjective. That's what I mean by that gray comment. Even though we are Christians doesn't change the fact that other opinions still exist in life. How unrealistic is that? Life doesn't work that way. While the Abrahamic GOD IS the final ruling authority on ALL matters that doesn't change the fact that 7 billion other people all have a different answer to the same question. Y do u think/presume that the rest of the world is Christian for some reason? Bc that's the premise behind ur argument and it is so highly illogical when u and Sketch and others continue to argue these moot points without realizing all the shades of gray starring u in the face. Answer me that plz.

 

[arj1981]

Zairsmith, as far as abortion is concerned here is MY OPINION on abortion. Here's another post.

However, I can't speak for everyone else bc there are so many shades of gray when it is concerning this matter but that's MY opinion ONLY on abortion.

 

[twob4me]

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[arj1981]

SoS, I don't know how this keeps getting missed but I personally would not condemn u for ur personal reasons for being pro-life. To each his own is all I'm saying. When it comes to me personally I don't care WHEN the zygote, embryo, fetus, or unborn is considered an actual human being or person. Don't care at all. That doesn't sway my vote one way or the other and I've never made that a point of contention. When it comes to me, I am completely subjected to Jesus Christ and His Father, the Abrahamic God from the Holy Bible, the maker and ruler of heaven and earth. And as I've maintained from the VERY beginning The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away (Job 1:21), so since u believe life starts at the moment of conception, it is ALL fair game to God AND Christ from that point on from my perspective. Get it? Who's being inconsistent now?

I AM saying that GOD and Christ can USE many methods - such as abortion - to take away human life. Did u hear about the flood or how Christ was flogged, mocked, beaten and crucified or how many of the prophets were stoned to death? I'm saying it ALL belongs to GOD. He's the only one that can grant life and take it away and I don't question His ruling authority on anything bc I know my bible all too well. That's the point I'm making.

 

[zairsmith]

Y do u keep acting like all pro-choicers are Christians or even monotheists? Answer this one for me please. Zairsmith, the point wasn't that our opinions MATTER to GOD. the point was that OUR OPINIONS DON'T MATTER to anyone else who doesn't share them. That's why ALL of life is all a gray area no matter "how u look at it." It all depends on who u r talking to. For instance, an atheist compared to a baptist IS going to have a DIFFERENT opinion about GOD and NOTHING we say will convince of anything else. I didn't say all those people will varying opinions are CORRECT. No. no. no. no. no. Like in the case with Sketch validity or viability ISN'T what I'm arguing. That's the conclusion u keep jumping to for some reason when I'm not saying that. I'm just saying life is all subjective. That's what I mean by that gray comment. Even though we are Christian doesn't change the fact that other opinions still exist in life. How unrealistic is that? Life doesn't work that way. While the Abrahamic GOD IS the final ruling authority on ALL matters that doesn't change the fact that 7 billion other people all have a different answer to the same question. Y do u think/presume that the rest of the world is Christian for some reason? Bc that's the premise behind ur argument and it is so highly illogical when u and Sketch and others continue to argue these moot points without realizing all the shades of gray starring u in the face. Answer me that plz.

I was addressing pro-choice chtistians...I don't believe everyone in the world is Christian however the point I'm arguing is that if u are indeed a Christian y would you support abortion knowing that it may very well displease our God. By the way if you don't believe in God or remotely interested in God...why address issues on a Christian forum if you don't believe in the ultimate subject matter which is always what would Jesus do. If u specified that you are not a Christian earlier in the post I apologize I didn't read that but I am here to promote Christ and not my own view or others. This is why I stand against abortion in this fashion. Let this be the end of our debate on this matter because I can only argue from beliefs and if you don't share my beliefs then we will continue to argue opinions which I don't care to debate because you are entitled to think independently of me and who am I to try to force my God on to you. So, I shared my view and I will leave it to God with non believers but with believers I have to continue to counter this epidemic of a belief that God is a supporter of this or does not have an opinion on the matter. BECAUSE HE DOES

 

[arj1981]

Zairsmith, read the response above urs. I KNOW it doesn't displease GOD. NO ONE can take away HUMAN LIFE. PERIOD. WITHOUT GOD's approval. HE'S the ONLY ONE that can take away human life. U don't know ur bible too well. That's what I'm saying. What u are stating is a contradiction in terms. It IS an impossibility. GOD is the only one that grants life and HE is the only one that takes it away. The method He uses and when He chooses to use them are all variables which are completely up to Him. That's y I don't judge. I'm too smart for all that.

 

[lux et lex]

Zairsmith, read the response above urs. I KNOW it doesn't displease GOD. NO ONE can take away HUMAN LIFE. PERIOD. WITHOUT GOD's approval. HE'S the ONLY ONE that can take away human life. U don't know ur bible too well. That's what I'm saying. What u are stating is a contradiction in terms. It IS an impossibility. GOD is the only one that grants life and HE is the only one that takes it away. The method He uses and when He chooses to use them are all variables which are completely up to Him. That's y I don't judge. I'm too smart for all that.

I can agree with this.

 

[zairsmith]

Zairsmith, read the response above urs. I KNOW it doesn't displease GOD. NO ONE can take away HUMAN LIFE. PERIOD. WITHOUT GOD's approval. HE'S the ONLY ONE that can take away human life. U don't know ur bible too well. That's what I'm saying. What u are stating is a contradiction in terms. It IS an impossibility. GOD is the only one that grants life and HE is the only one that takes it away. The method He uses and when He chooses to use them are all variables which are completely up to Him. That's y I don't judge. I'm too smart for all that.

Wow self righteous are we...ok I bow out in love...by the way we r to convict our brothers and sisters in Christ check out acts and judges and Romans, Corinthians etc. Well again you are indirectly stating that abortion is a method if choice. All I'm saying is that how do you know that He chooses that. CAIN KILLED ABLE AND ALTHOUGH ALLOWED BY GOD IT DISPLEASED HIM. how do we know that this isn't the samething. I'm nit judging just trying to set a idea that maybe God don't agree and if he doesn't then those who support this will be in trouble...that's all. I'm just trying to get people to consider the possibility that u may be wrong what's so condemning about that on my behalf. This is why I address the believers. Oh by the way, you telling me I don't know my Bible seems to me to be a self righteous pharisee approach to the issue. All that says is that you know better than me thus u position your theology higher than mine and that's not smart because the first shall be the last and the greater shall serve the least. How r u serving others when you believe your so smart and attention to belittle them by saying they don't know their Bible and not trying to correct their mistakes....lol.

Anyway like I said I bow out in love....God bless you and I don't take anything you say to heart!

 

[arj1981]

CAIN KILLED ABLE AND ALTHOUGH ALLOWED BY GOD

Trust me it is not. Again I don't judge the situation PERIOD. U keep thinking it is within our place to judge and it is not. Even the Bible said Cain is cursed but anyone who curses or hurts Cain is cursed 7 times more. U really NEED to read ur Bible more. Able would still be here if that's what GOD wanted. I found that a lot of things took place in scripture simply bc there needed to be a precedent for us Christians to follow. I mean, if Christ weren't flogged and crucified would I have been able to get a word in edge wise? Me thinks not. The point is, IF ABLE and CHRIST weren't spared then how is ANYONE else (including zygotes, fetuses and embryos. Since all pro-lifers constantly proclaim they are ALL human beings) safe or off limits? Do u not see the contradictions in terms again? Especially since this is about abortions. People keep assuming ALL babies should be spared and have a right to life but YOU just brought up the story of Cain and Able and said ur right. GOD allowed that MURDER to happen. Sorry, what was ur point again? Don't worry about it. I don't take anything u say to heart either.

Now that u've just proven this verse APPLIES to BOTH CHRIST AND ABLE, it is worth repeating:

Job 40: 19 He ranks first among the works of God,
yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.

Thanks for helping me drive home my point.

 

[zairsmith]

Ur forgetting that Cain was cursed all his days as a result of the murder and was marked so no one would murder him. What I meant is that God allowed it but he did not endorse this. So, yea abortions are allowed but do God endorse it? If no then all who do endorse it would have endorsed something God is not pleased with. i fail to see how the murder of an unborn baby sets a precedence for Christians to follow what are we to follow? Able and christ and all other myrters actually had a chance to make a difference in life. What can we learn from the death of the unborn? I'm not saying that God doesn't use people to show us how to live our lives. Even Christ say this in His word. But how dies this apply to unborn children and who are we to decide when God instills His spirit in a fetus. You said it yourself life comes from God...but he doesn't specify how are when so as a Christian I am to counter the things that are not of God and the way I choose to counter abortion is by introducing to pro choice Christian is the notion that if you are unsure don't do it. You seem to be attacking me not once have I attacked you...why such the hostility? Also, I bow out of this debate in love what I mean is I no longer want to ruffle feathers and that if I am doing this its not my intention to contest with you we should be loving one another not trying to find crafty was to validify our point of view with character degrading comments...which in my opinion that's what your doing when you result in saying u need to read you Bible more or you don't know your Bible...which translate to you are not an educated Christian or you don't know God as well as I do. Not once have I said you don't know your Bible because I don't know how often you are in the word but in my defense I read my Bible and study the word of God everyday.

God bless you again...I sincerely mean this from the spirit.

 

[chris4243]

Zairsmith, read the response above urs. I KNOW it doesn't displease GOD. NO ONE can take away HUMAN LIFE. PERIOD. WITHOUT GOD's approval. HE'S the ONLY ONE that can take away human life. U don't know ur bible too well. That's what I'm saying. What u are stating is a contradiction in terms. It IS an impossibility. GOD is the only one that grants life and HE is the only one that takes it away. The method He uses and when He chooses to use them are all variables which are completely up to Him. That's y I don't judge. I'm too smart for all that.

No one can do anything unless God allows it. Doesn't mean God approves of it. Every single sin man has ever done, God has allowed. Does that mean that God approves of it?

 

[zairsmith]

No one can do anything unless God allows it. Doesn't mean God approves of it. Every single sin man has ever done, God has allowed. Does that mean that God approves of it?

Chris,

All I'm saying is if pro choice people are wrong how would they explain this to the LORD once face to face. I feel somewhat attacked because of all the statements about me not knowing my Bible...? I'm a bit confused how one comes to that ideology because I simply say trying to view abortion in the eyes of God is hard since there's nothing in the word that directly addresses this topic. I was taught if your not sure then don't do it.

 

[arj1981]

No one can do anything unless God allows it. Doesn't mean God approves of it. Every single sin man has ever done, God has allowed. Does that mean that God approves of it?

This might have been a poor choice of words on MY part. Again we are jumping from one topic to the next. One min we are all talking about abortion, then reincarnation, now approval. I guess it all ties in though. BUT me personally I was just addressing the issue that PRO-LIFERS believe that EVERY LIFE SHOULD BE SPARED. <<<< This is my only point but maybe wording it one way over the other reroutes the conversation. Therefore, in using the story of Cain & Able, I was trying to say in order to argue your pro-life opposition u point to an example in scripture when GOD DIDN'T spare a life??? Does that make sense??? Bc that's been the only point I've been making this entire time here. GOD DOESN'T ALWAYS SPARE LIFE even when it came to HIS OWN SON, JESUS CHRIST so what leg do pro-lifers have to stand on??? I can't figure out why there this r word again about it. Yes I can. It is all in the programming. Not being able to think for one's self. Whether HE approved or disapproved, it is GOD that said to Noah I WILL demand an accounting for everyone's life blood. Gen. 9: 15 This is why I said people need to read their bibles more. That's NOT OUR job, yet with all of these judgments people are toting about how if u kill an unborn u'll go to hell... all abortionist should die like Dr. Tiller. I saw the websites....GOD did not say I, u, Zairsmith, SOS, Sketch, etc will be doing the accounting. No. No. No. NO. No. I personally don't get down with ANY kind of rhetoric like that. That's what I mean by I don't judge either way. The story of Cain & Able also illustrates this point. How ironic, yet again.
Genesis 4:14-16

14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.&#8221;
15 But the LORD said to him, &#8220;Not so[a]; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over.&#8221; Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the LORD&#8217;s presence and lived in the land of Nod,[b] east of Eden.

Remember the story of Dr. Tiller? So, what do u think will become of his killer? I dare not speculate. That's why I said to another poster:

I don't care to wax on and on about reincarnation...to each his own... but the prohibition of abortion is another orthodox belief in the church and we both know how that conversation turned out. So... I personally wouldn't emphasize or put a lot of stock in that aspect or base judgment on the "majority consensus rule" argument bc that majority consists of A LOT (SSSSSSOOOOOOOOOO MANY the number's too big to count) of Christians who aren't fully acquainted with scripture or can't tell what the inside of their Bible looks like. Therefore, they can't tell their left from their right and they don't know their bibles too well or they argue from the standpoint that the ENTIRE world is Christian (which denomination? No one knows) without ever realizing how ignorant and illogical that standpoint is. So watch the company u keep bc that's the COMMON FACTUAL reality that reoccurs most often today. Me personally? I like the fact that I AM fully acquainted with scripture and I KNOW how to think for myself. Those are the only two deciding factors that really make a difference from my estimate. No matter how irrational, no one can scare me into siding with them based of self-righteous judgments, a condescending tone, scare tactics and baseless rhetoric. That's how the majority typically wins their votes.

 

[chris4243]

Chris,

All I'm saying is if pro choice people are wrong how would they explain this to the LORD once face to face. I feel somewhat attacked because of all the statements about me not knowing my Bible...? I'm a bit confused how one comes to that ideology because I simply say trying to view abortion in the eyes of God is hard since there's nothing in the word that directly addresses this topic. I was taught if your not sure then don't do it.

God is the most pro-choice there is -- in fact, He created choice (free will), and lets us choose things even if He does not approve. God gives commands, yes, but unlike humans He allows us to go against said commands.

God is also very pro-life -- in fact, He created life. But He also takes lives and occasionally commands the taking of lives.

The pro-choice group is basically saying, Love your neighbor as yourself. For the purposes of this debate, the pregnant woman is your neighbor, as are future children*. The pro-life position is (usually) that even a single cell (a fertilized egg) should be treated as your neighbor. In my opinion, that's just silly. In their opinion, I'm defending murder.

*pro-choice people also believe that no one should have to grow up as an unwanted child, nor as an unaffordable child.

 

[arj1981]

All I'm saying is if pro choice people are wrong how would they explain this to the LORD once face to face.

Indeed, Zairsmith, if pro-lifers like Scott Roeder are wrong how would they explain it come Judgment Day? We are saying the same thing.

 

[chris4243]

Ecclesiastes 4

1 Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun: I saw the tears of the oppressed&#8212;
and they have no comforter;
power was on the side of their oppressors&#8212;
and they have no comforter.
2 And I declared that the dead,
who had already died,
are happier than the living,
who are still alive.
3 But better than both
is the one who has never been born,
who has not seen the evil
that is done under the sun.


Ecclesiastes 6

3 A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he. 4 It comes without meaning, it departs in darkness, and in darkness its name is shrouded. 5 Though it never saw the sun or knew anything, it has more rest than does that man&#8212; 6 even if he lives a thousand years twice over but fails to enjoy his prosperity. Do not all go to the same place?

It is better to be stillborn than to become prosperous but not enjoy the prosperity? Then perhaps it is better to be stillborn than to be brought up as an unwanted child.

 

[zairsmith]

Indeed, Zairsmith, if pro-lifers like Scott Roeder are wrong how would they explain it come Judgment Day? We are saying the same thing.

Wow, Ark, I was unaware of this event. I do not endorse this either. I guess what I'm saying is God will have the ultimate say on things and if we aren't sure we shouldn't do things that we have no clarity on biblically when it involves any life. I know we aren't suppose to kill each other and since there is no Biblical explanation on how to determine when a human life is to be deemed "alive" other than implied notions based on Biblical Scripture maybe we should stay aware from this practice in its totality.

I guess we'll have to see when we get there. As for Scott, I pray that he truly understand in his heart that he has broken the commandment of Jesus to love his neighbor and even if he considered him to be a enemy he was to still love him I can't see how any intentional murder is out of love for anything.

Thanks for making me aware of this I will pray for the doc's family. These unnecessary killings have to stop.

 

[arj1981]

Wow, Ark, I was unaware of this event. I do not endorse this either. I guess what I'm saying is God will have the ultimate say on things and if we aren't sure we shouldn't do things that we have no clarity on biblically when it involves any life. I know we aren't suppose to kill each other and since there is no Biblical explanation on how to determine when a human life is to be deemed "alive" other than implied notions based on Biblical Scripture maybe we should stay aware from this practice in its totality.

I guess we'll have to see when we get there. As for Scott, I pray that he truly understand in his heart that he has broken the commandment of Jesus to love his neighbor and even if he considered him to be a enemy he was to still love him I can't see how any intentional murder is out of love for anything.

Thanks for making me aware of this I will pray for the doc's family. These unnecessary killings have to stop.

Thanks. I'm glad u agree on a portion of it. That's good to hear. I thought u were aware of events like this. However, I still don't agree with banning abortion in its totality. GOD doesn't spare all life - we are carnivores for instance and Joan of Arc was prophesied to win battles and wars (where there's murder, pillaging, and mayhem) in New Orleans. That's nothing we have to speculate on bc it is in plain black and white in scripture. For instance, with ur Cain and Able story, wasn't that a heck of a time for him to go? Right after he conducted the burnt offering and found tremendous favor with the Lord??? I mean, Able was LITERALLY murdered directly after that ritual...GOD found favor with Able but did not with Cain, so why didn't the Lord protect him and spare his life??? instead of allowing it to happen??? Cain had a choice but so did God. Get it??? So u keep harping on and on about this notion that ALL human life should be spared but that isn't the choice GOD made. Not even when it came to Dr. Tiller. GOD makes choices like that every single day, even when it comes to unborn fetuses, embryos, zygotes, and abortions. He will demand an accounting for every human life. That's because He's the one who's been running the shots this entire time. So how does scripture support pro life?

 

[arj1981]

Thanks. I'm glad u agree on a portion of it. That's good to hear. I thought u were aware of events like this. However, I still don't agree with banning abortion in its totality. GOD doesn't spare all life - we are carnivores for instance and Joan of Arc was prophesied to win battles and wars (where there's murder, pillaging, and mayhem) in New Orleans. That's nothing we have to speculate on bc it is in plain black and white in scripture. For instance, with ur Cain and Able story, wasn't that a heck of a time for him to go? Right after he conducted the burnt offering and found tremendous favor with the Lord??? I mean, Able was LITERALLY murdered directly after that ritual...GOD found favor with Able but did not with Cain, so why didn't the Lord protect him and spare his life???* instead of allowing it to happen??? Cain had a choice but so did God. Get it??? So u keep harping on and on about this notion that ALL human life should be spared but that isn't the choice GOD made. Not even when it came to Dr. Tiller. GOD makes choices like that every single day, even when it comes to unborn fetuses, embryos, zygotes, and abortions. He will demand an accounting for every human life. That's because He's the one who's been running the shots this entire time. So how does scripture support pro life?

*And this same scenario applies to Jesus. Y would GOD spare ALL unborn fetuses and embryos if He didn't spare Christ's life??? Father, why has thy forsaken me? GOD stood by and allowed it to happen... Again, that was ur point about a min ago but u prolifers jump ship on ur argument and move the goal posts again the min this fairy tale theory doesn't pan out. So, I don't mind constantly repeat exactly what it says in scripture or u could just read it for urself.

But I guess free will does exist. That's the only reason we are all going through this madness in the first place. Cain made a choice that was based on free will and GOD allowed it to happen to illustrate that we really do all have freewill. No, it might not be what He wanted but He'll be the judge of that. End of story.

 

[arj1981]

Ecclesiastes 4

1 Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun: I saw the tears of the oppressed—
and they have no comforter;
power was on the side of their oppressors—
and they have no comforter.
2 And I declared that the dead,
who had already died,
are happier than the living,
who are still alive.
3 But better than both
is the one who has never been born,
who has not seen the evil
that is done under the sun.


Ecclesiastes 6

3 A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he. 4 It comes without meaning, it departs in darkness, and in darkness its name is shrouded. 5 Though it never saw the sun or knew anything, it has more rest than does that man— 6 even if he lives a thousand years twice over but fails to enjoy his prosperity. Do not all go to the same place?

It is better to be stillborn than to become prosperous but not enjoy the prosperity? Then perhaps it is better to be stillborn than to be brought up as an unwanted child.

Nice. U never KNOW what GOD's plan is for every single zygote in existence. To SAY they ALL deserve to live is presuming way too much already. How crazy is that???