abortion?

[arj1981]

Case and point about free will. I'm not the only one who found this hysterical right?

 

[arj1981]

Ur forgetting that Cain was cursed all his days as a result of the murder and was marked so no one would murder him. What I meant is that God allowed it but he did not endorse this. So, yea abortions are allowed but do God endorse it? If no then all who do endorse it would have endorsed something God is not pleased with. i fail to see how the murder of an unborn baby sets a precedence for Christians to follow what are we to follow? Able and christ and all other myrters actually had a chance to make a difference in life. What can we learn from the death of the unborn? I'm not saying that God doesn't use people to show us how to live our lives. Even Christ say this in His word. But how dies this apply to unborn children and who are we to decide when God instills His spirit in a fetus. You said it yourself life comes from God...but he doesn't specify how are when so as a Christian I am to counter the things that are not of God and the way I choose to counter abortion is by introducing to pro choice Christian is the notion that if you are unsure don't do it. You seem to be attacking me not once have I attacked you...why such the hostility? Also, I bow out of this debate in love what I mean is I no longer want to ruffle feathers and that if I am doing this its not my intention to contest with you we should be loving one another not trying to find crafty was to validify our point of view with character degrading comments...which in my opinion that's what your doing when you result in saying u need to read you Bible more or you don't know your Bible...which translate to you are not an educated Christian or you don't know God as well as I do. Not once have I said you don't know your Bible because I don't know how often you are in the word but in my defense I read my Bible and study the word of God everyday.

God bless you again...I sincerely mean this from the spirit.

U know, I'm not saying in ALL cases God just allowed it to happen. In some cases, it WAS ordained and it was brutal. Like with Christ. That is some of the cases when it comes to abortions as well. That's what I'm also saying. People just like to compartmentalize what they are saying. If there's incidents in scripture (LOTS of them in fact in both the NT and OT but been thur this so many times it is hard to keep looking all this stuff up) where GOD permitted it and ordained it then wouldn't that still hold true today in cases of abortions, murders and whatnot? After all, He's the one that doesn't change. So what leg do pro-lifers have to stand on. I still can't figure that one out. And I mean this on a logical basis not a rhetorical one. The logic just doesn't add up yet no Christian pro-lifer is willing to admit this.

 

[zairsmith]

God is the most pro-choice there is -- in fact, He created choice (free will), and lets us choose things even if He does not approve. God gives commands, yes, but unlike humans He allows us to go against said commands.

God is also very pro-life -- in fact, He created life. But He also takes lives and occasionally commands the taking of lives.

The pro-choice group is basically saying, Love your neighbor as yourself. For the purposes of this debate, the pregnant woman is your neighbor, as are future children*. The pro-life position is (usually) that even a single cell (a fertilized egg) should be treated as your neighbor. In my opinion, that's just silly. In their opinion, I'm defending murder.

*pro-choice people also believe that no one should have to grow up as an unwanted child, nor as an unaffordable child.

True but your leaving out that God will punish those who disobey. Which leads me to my point if it is wrong then this will be displeasing to God. We can't say for certain either side is right but to say that it is a gray area to God is wrong. God's opinions on things are never gray and as a Christian that's who opinion counts not mine not yours but God. Jesus displays this for us in the garden of gethsemane...when prays not my will be done but Gods. This means not my opinion but Gods because opinions are thoughts that dictate beliefs which determine action which is the manifestation of ones will.

 

[zairsmith]

Ecclesiastes 4

1 Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun: I saw the tears of the oppressed—
and they have no comforter;
power was on the side of their oppressors—
and they have no comforter.
2 And I declared that the dead,
who had already died,
are happier than the living,
who are still alive.
3 But better than both
is the one who has never been born,
who has not seen the evil
that is done under the sun.


Ecclesiastes 6

3 A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he. 4 It comes without meaning, it departs in darkness, and in darkness its name is shrouded. 5 Though it never saw the sun or knew anything, it has more rest than does that man— 6 even if he lives a thousand years twice over but fails to enjoy his prosperity. Do not all go to the same place?

It is better to be stillborn than to become prosperous but not enjoy the prosperity? Then perhaps it is better to be stillborn than to be brought up as an unwanted child.

Stillborn is not abortion as the child dies NATURALLY in the womb. How does this support the aborting of a health child that possibly would have been born?

 

[zairsmith]

U know, I'm not saying in ALL cases God just allowed it to happen. In some cases, it WAS ordained and it was brutal. Like with Christ. That is some of the cases when it comes to abortions as well. That's what I'm also saying. People just like to compartmentalize what they are saying. If there's incidents in scripture (LOTS of them in fact in both the NT and OT but been thur this so many times it is hard to keep looking all this stuff up) where GOD permitted it and ordained it then wouldn't that still hold true today in cases of abortions, murders and whatnot? After all, He's the one that doesn't change. So what leg do pro-lifers have to stand on. I still can't figure that one out. And I mean this on a logical basis not a rhetorical one. The logic just doesn't add up yet no Christian pro-lifer is willing to admit this.

I really don't believe this premise that aborting a child willingly is ordained by God...this has no place in Scripture even ecclesiastics states stillborn which again indicates that the baby dies NATURALLY in the womb...abortion is a man made procedure that a woman with child does willingly. The stillborn child as well as mother has no choice in this matter.

 

[arj1981]

I give up. Parting words:

Matthew 16

Jesus Predicts His Death

21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. 22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”
23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”

 

[zairsmith]

I give up. Parting words:

Matthew 16

Jesus Predicts His Death

21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. 22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”
23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”

It will be one or the other for those who think they know God's ways on this topic...well done my faithful servant or depart from me son of iniquity I know you not.

Plan and simple black and white...not gray!

God bless you and I pray you are right for your sake either way I will be ok in this matter as its not a requirement for salvation but if some how it falls as inferred sin in the Bible you will be accountable for it...

Remember the Pharisees had gotten to a point where they could no longer believe...walk circumspectly in all that you do this includes what you promote!

 

[brightmorningstar]

arj1981,
I am with Zairsmith here.
You wrote..

For instance, an atheist compared to a baptist IS going to have a DIFFERENT opinion about GOD and NOTHING we say will convince of anything else.

It is a Christian forum and the issue is currently being debated amongst those of us with Christian icons. So what relevance has your point? Atheists may see it as grey, humanists and secular liberals will as relativism is grey. God is not a grey area. Some things are not clear to us from scripture but its not grey to God. Holistically scripture doesn’t support humans performing abortion as a matter of choice.

Now I also reject your original post. It says

To each his own is all I'm saying. When it comes to me personally I don't care WHEN the zygote, embryo, fetus, or unborn is considered an actual human being or person. Don't care at all.

Now is that just the unborn, or the born as well? If you don’t care about the born then ok, but if you do care about the born then why are you not caring about the unborn? You have actually in typical relativist style already decided to make a distinction between the validity of the unborn as opposed to the born.

 

[chris4243]

True but your leaving out that God will punish those who disobey.

Exactly! Thus, to be on the safe side, you should be pro-choice.

 

[zairsmith]

Exactly! Thus, to be on the safe side, you should be pro-choice.

How so...u speak as if God has commanded abortion Free will is only given to freely worship God not to choose things to promote our will but God's will. How do u know destroying a potential vessel of God is His will. Also if our bodies is the temple of the LORD how does aborting another temple of His pan out with Him. You should be careful about what you promote Matthew 12:36:37 tells us to be careful about what we say Jesus say you words will either justify you or condensed you. I'm sticking to not enough evidence to support that God is on board with this so, I'm staying away from the pro-choice p.o.v.

 

[arj1981]

Can't help u Zairsmith. I tried. I gave up a long time ago. Nothing anyone's saying is registering.

 

[arj1981]

How so...u speak as if God has commanded abortion Free will is only given to freely worship God not to choose things to promote our will but God's will. How do u know destroying a potential vessel of God is His will. Also if our bodies is the temple of the LORD how does aborting another temple of His pan out with Him. You should be careful about what you promote Matthew 12:36:37 tells us to be careful about what we say Jesus say you words will either justify you or condensed you. I'm sticking to not enough evidence to support that God is on board with this so, I'm staying away from the pro-choice p.o.v.

We are trying to tell u that it DID pan out for Him when it came to Christ and situations like Noah's flood, Sodom & Gomorroah, etc but it is just not clicking no matter how many times we repeat these facts. So I have to jot this one off to a lost cause.

 

[zairsmith]

We are trying to tell u that it DID pan out for Him when it came to Christ and situations like Noah's flood, Sodom & Gomorroah, etc but it is just not clicking no matter how many times we repeat these facts. So I have to jot this one off to a lost cause.

How do you compare judgement over the wicked with the destruction of the innocent...that is a demonic statement these people did evil in the sight of God. How does the willing mother who gets an abortion becomes an act of judgement against the wicked...did not Abraham ask God would he spare the cities if there were but 50 righteous and God said he would. Your logic here is flat out demonic and I rebuke it in the name of Jesus Christ. Even Christ says that unless we become like a child again we can not enter into the kingdom of Heaven...so what your saying is God, through the destruction of the fetus from the act of a willing mother, is some how purging society of evil... why not just make the baby stillborn. Like in ecclesiastics? SMH...I truly have been thrown for such a loop....hearing this explanation for abortion especially since it comes from someone who was first saying its a matter specific to each person in our massive 7 billion people of a population, then said they care not to debate when a zygote, a fetus, a embryo, or unborn is concidered a human life, and is now saying its the will of God executing his wrath on man through the destruction of an innocent life?
There was purpose in the death of the sinless Jesus Christ to save us from sheol what purpose is it to destroy a potential human life at the hand of the willing mother? I will not submit myself to such a Antichrist statement so the Holocaust of the Jews is God too huh? Those who sacrifice there kids to molech is God to huh? Wow...nevertheless I bow out of this with love I will reply no more to you as your statements are antichristian statements and there is nothing I can do but pray for your discernment.

 

[arj1981]

I'm out of this conversation for now. We'll just keep going in circles.

 

[chris4243]

Here's the reason the pro-choice side is the safe side to pick if you are in doubt about whether abortion is OK or not:

Is it work to carry your mat on a Sabbath? When in doubt, forbid others from doing so, like a good little Pharisee. Is it work to heal a cripple on a Sabbath? When in doubt, forbid others from doing so, like a good little Pharisee. Is it work to pick grain and eat it on a Sabbath? When in doubt, forbid others from doing so, like a good little Pharisee. Always remember to judge and condemn others when there is any doubt about whether what they are doing is acceptable.

But you know what Jesus thought of the Pharisees... burdening people with your overzealous interpretation of scriptures is definitely not playing it safe. Playing it safe is minding your own business; follow your conscience and let others follow theirs. And on Judgement Day, each of us will give account of what we have done to God Himself. And if you have falsely condemned others, you go try to explain to God how you were just playing it safe.

Remember, playing it safe is not judging and condemning others.
Luke 6:37 [ Judging Others ] “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Jude 1:9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”[d] 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand,

 

[chris4243]

.

 

[zairsmith]

.

Well taking a side on the matter is not minding your business we are also to be in the world but not of the world. Also, I am not defending pro-choice or pro-life. I am simply saying if abortion is a implied sin (means it falls under some category of sin) then those who support it would be in sin. If its not a sin then everyone is safe on both sides as its not a requirement for salvation. Either way if you stay away from it your safe. I didn't say any body would go to hell if they believed in or performed an abortion nor did I judge anyone. All I'm saying is that there is no direct Scripture pertaining to the act of abortion...which by definition is the act of terminating a pregnancy at the will of the mother. Since there is no Scripture that directly address it this is a gray area FOR MAN BUT NOT FOR GOD.

But your entitled to your opinions and your beliefs all I'm saying is whatever you do make sure its done revering God. In love I speak these words not in condemnation, who can say its wrong or right other than God. It just seems unlikely to be accepted by God on a scriptural basis. IMO BUT I COULD BE WRONG AND IF I AM SINCE I AM NOT JUDGING NOR CONDEMNING BUT MERELY ATTEMPTING TO TELL PEOPLE TO SEEK GOD ON THIS AND NOT YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING...I DONT SEE HOW I CAN POSSIBLY BE IN OPPOSITION TO GOD ON THIS MATTER.

 

[brightmorningstar]

For anyone reading this thread, this is what one needs to consider..

Is it work to carry your mat on a Sabbath? When in doubt, forbid others from doing so, like a good little Pharisee.

Go ahead if you think killing your baby is no worse than an OT law about carrying a matt.

Is it work to heal a cripple on a Sabbath? When in doubt, forbid others from doing so, like a good little Pharisee.

Pray for healing for others, Jesus taught to do so. Do you really think killing your baby is part of the same gospel and healing people?

Is it work to pick grain and eat it on a Sabbath? When in doubt, forbid others from doing so, like a good little Pharisee.

Do you really want to tell anyone else not to pick grain of the Sabbath, or are you not bothered whether people kill their own babies?

Always remember to judge and condemn others when there is any doubt about whether what they are doing is acceptable.

Do you really think trying to persuade people not to kill their own unborn babies is condemning them? Perhaps one could day those killing their own unborn babies are condemning their unborn babies.

Do you really think that the instruction ‘do not judge’ was designed to prevent people from criticising the murder of unborn babies?

 

[Aibrean]

We are to judge those who we would call brother. People so easily forget that.

But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

 

[Ave Maria]

No, it would not be okay to abort your child if you were raped. Just because an evil act occurred which resulted in pregnancy does not justify the murder of the unborn child.

To learn more about abortion and the morality of it, read the following links:

Abortion

Abortion and Health Care Reform - Busted Halo

Pro-Life or Pro-Active? - Busted Halo

The connection between contraception and abortion | One More Soul

Breast Cancer, Its Link to Abortion and the Birth Control Pill | One More Soul

Abortion Boosts Breast Cancer Risk 193% Study Finds, Giving Birth Lowers It | One More Soul

Abortion and the Bible

Antidote to abortion arguments

God Bless,
Ave Maria (Holly)