Abortion

[SithDoughnut]

Yes you can and anyone else can. I also believe that the human inside of the mother should have an opinion...

<snip>

....I think you could learn a valuable lesson - Everyone has opinions some different some the same but all should be able to be heard. We have conflicting viewpoints but we should still hear eachother out and actrually make a strong debate. and also plays in my own views as i think we should give everyone an opinion and that includes the viewpoints of the ones who you think due to it being legal is fine to get rid of.

Right, so you find out what the foetus' opinion is and we'll listen to it. So far all you've done is projected your own opinions on to it - how do you know what it wants? What gives you the right to speak for it?

I'll give you a handy clue though. The majority of abortions take place at a point in foetal development when it is incapable of having opinions. So now you've got the mother who wants to have the abortion, and the foetus who doesn't care. That's everyone's opinions taken care of - abortion is fine in that situation, yes?

I do wish that pro-lifers would stop pretending to be speaking for the foetus and just admit that it's their views and their morals they want to force on everyone else, even though it is none of their business.

So women are always right or always wrong about terms to their body .
SO because i see a women being anorexic i have no clue and can't help them make a better life decision because since they're the opposite sex i got no idea?

If you meet an anorexic woman and you're worried about her health, you are free to suggest that she eats more. What you can't do is force-feed her against her will. Same applies here: you're free to ask women not to have abortions, but you can't force them to continue with the pregnancy, unless they want to themselves.

 

[Jay217]

Right, so you find out what the foetus' opinion is and we'll listen to it. So far all you've done is projected your own opinions on to it - how do you know what it wants? What gives you the right to speak for it?

Nobody i just want all sides of that story.

I'll give you a handy clue though. The majority of abortions take place at a point in foetal development when it is incapable of having opinions. So now you've got the mother who wants to have the abortion, and the foetus who doesn't care. That's everyone's opinions taken care of - abortion is fine in that situation, yes?

No i have no right to speak for the fetus guess we should let the fetus tell before we take it's right of life away don't you agree? ohh they can't talk well until a few years out of the womb? guess we'll be waiting a while to see whether it wants to die or not.

I do wish that pro-lifers would stop pretending to be speaking for the foetus and just admit that it's their views and their morals they want to force on everyone else, even though it is none of their business.

I know i wouldn't want to be terminated when i was conceived and i don't think many of the current ones would like it much either. better let them decide. and then problem solved.

If you meet an anorexic woman and you're worried about her health, you are free to suggest that she eats more. What you can't do is force-feed her against her will. Same applies here: you're free to ask women not to have abortions, but you can't force them to continue with the pregnancy, unless they want to themselves.

Agree to the 1st. however if you apply it to the 2nd where more than 1 life is at stake your saying -you can't stop a woman from beating (not a simple slap on the but, but full out assault) her 5yr old child in the middle of the parking lot because it's against the woman's free-will to intervene?

Replace 5yrold with few weeks and beat to kill and parking lot to clinic and u got yourself an abortion

 

[SithDoughnut]

No i have no right to speak for the fetus guess we should let the fetus tell before we take it's right of life away don't you agree? ohh they can't talk well until a few years out of the womb? guess we'll be waiting a while to see whether it wants to die or not.

We already know the foetus' position on this - it doesn't care. It is incapable of caring. It lacks the brain functions to be able to do it. So we don't need to wait, we already know.

I know i wouldn't want to be terminated when i was conceived and i don't think many of the current ones would like it much either. better let them decide. and then problem solved.

See above. When you were concieved, you had no brain. You were unable to want anything. Please at least be sensible.

Agree to the 1st. however if you apply it to the 2nd where more than 1 life is at stake your saying -you can't stop a woman from beating (not a simple slap on the but, but full out assault) her 5yr old child in the middle of the parking lot because it's against the woman's free-will to intervene?

Replace 5yrold with few weeks and beat to kill and parking lot to clinic and u got yourself an abortion

A 5yr old child is a person, a clump of cells in the womb is not. People have rights, clumps of cells do not. Or do my fingernails have rights too? Should I not be allowed to cut them?

Given that a foetus a few weeks into development is less intelligent than animals and cannot suffer while they can, I do hope that you're a vegetarian.

 

[IzzyPop]

No Abortions that occur as a use of birth control are wrong.

It's destroying life and it can seriously complicate a woman's health for future birth-giving.

Right. We make choices every day that destroy life. Do you eat meat? Do you buy anything from Nestle? How about drive a car or take a bus? Buy stuff made in sweat shops?

If a fertility clinic is on fire, do you rescue the trapped nurse or a couple of thermoses of fetuses?

 

[RobinRobyn]

Possibly because i'm human and i care about giving others the Right To Live.

How does that give you the right to tell me what to do?

what puts you in the decision making of other woman's lives?

I'm not. Every woman makes her own decisions. Men like you seem to think they shouldn't.

what makes u more better suited at judging than myself?

When it comes to my life and my body, how are you suited to judge in any way? The same for any other woman.

Your point is?

That's it. Abortion isn't illegal, so you can't stop any woman who wants one from having one.

which is fine as long as you don't intentionally kill a person.

An embryo isn't a person.

That is a self-defense case so quite possibly.

That doesn't apply to abortion.

and If your remark is "IT'S LEGAL" than please explain otherwise.

I don't have to. Abortion is legal, so you can't stop any woman from having one if that's her choice. Sorry, but that's how it is.

Yes you can

Gee thanks.

and anyone else can. I also believe that the human inside of the mother should have an opinion...

And if she decides to have an abortion, will you allow her to make her own decisons? So nice of you!

It's called a figure of speech

I know. It doesn't apply, since there is no jail.

So women are always right or always wrong about terms to their body .

Are your decisions about your body always right? Who tells you they're wrong?

SO because i see a women being anorexic i have no clue and can't help them make a better life decision because since they're the opposite sex i got no idea?

If she asks for your opinion, or if she's family or a loved one you can offer your opinion. But if she doesn't ask, or doesn't listen when you give it anyway, what then? Will you force a sandwich down her throat? Sorry to have to tell you this, but sometimes, you have no choice but to mind your own damn business.

I don't decide what is moral...

You're trying to make that decision for women who disagree with you on abortion.

i kinda thought alot of it was common sense...

It's also common sense to keep your nose out of a woman's private business.

I think you could learn a valuable lesson

Please enlighten me! I can't wait!

Everyone has opinions some different some the same but all should be able to be heard.

I think you should get a vasectomy. Are you listening to my opinion?

We have conflicting viewpoints but we should still hear eachother out and actrually make a strong debate.

Why? Are pregnant women seeking a debate about what they should do? You seem to think all women are just waiting by the phone for you to offer your two cents. We're not. When you have a medical issue, do you open a forum here seeking a debate on what you should do?

and also plays in my own views as i think we should give everyone an opinion

When you're pregnant, then you can have an opinion. You can decide not to have an abortion yourself.

and that includes the viewpoints of the ones who you think due to it being legal is fine to get rid of.

Who are you to say whether it's fine or not? Who made you the moral guardian of women everywhere?

 

[Jay217]

We already know the foetus' position on this - it doesn't care. It is incapable of caring. It lacks the brain functions to be able to do it. So we don't need to wait, we already know.



See above. When you were concieved, you had no brain. You were unable to want anything. Please at least be sensible.



A 5yr old child is a person, a clump of cells in the womb is not. People have rights, clumps of cells do not. Or do my fingernails have rights too? Should I not be allowed to cut them?

Given that a foetus a few weeks into development is less intelligent than animals and cannot suffer while they can, I do hope that you're a vegetarian.

So i didn't have a brain and now i do, so therefore killing things without a brain is right. and because somebody doesn't reply doesn't mean its a yes.

With time it chooses it wants so your trying to rob it of time therefore its unable to make a choice.

a clump of cells that is an individual organism in the womb.... Fingernails are inanimate and even with time they will not produce intelligence nor are they human but part of a human.

A cow is not human therefore cows do not get the rights of humans. a fetus will turn into a human a cow will never be a human.

Right. We make choices every day that destroy life. Do you eat meat? Do you buy anything from Nestle? How about drive a car or take a bus? Buy stuff made in sweat shops?

If a fertility clinic is on fire, do you rescue the trapped nurse or a couple of thermoses of fetuses?

Meat from cows is a cow not a human see above remark. Your concerned mothers are giving their infants fake breast milk? i drive to point A&B with my car, i do carpool to save money, don't get me started on global warming . Sweat shops are crimes against working conditions not against the right to live.

like process of selection if you need to eat and you have a cow and a calf u eat the calf due to the fact the cow can have more calves, and the calves can't survive without the essentials of life... But why is the clinic on fire and why am i going in.

 

[Jay217]

How does that give you the right to tell me what to do?

The constitution? freedom of speech???

I'm not. Every woman makes her own decisions. Men like you seem to think they shouldn't.
When it comes to my life and my body, how are you suited to judge in any way? The same for any other woman.

It's called an opinion. and so if a male doctor proscribed you with a illness that only affects women you would not listen because its a man and a woman's problem?

That's it. Abortion isn't illegal, so you can't stop any woman who wants one from having one.

You fight for what YOU think is right correct? if not why are you even debating with me?

An embryo isn't a person.

It's made from humans, turns into a human but isn't a human.... that's scary logic you have

That doesn't apply to abortion.

Gee thanks.
And if she decides to have an abortion, will you allow her to make her own decisons? So nice of you!

Just because i don't believe your POV doesn't mean i can nor should condemn it. If you make an approach on another life i will however reject them.

I know. It doesn't apply, since there is no jail.

A figure of speech is a use of a word that diverges from its normal meaning, or a phrase with a specialized meaning not based on the literal meaning of the words in it such as a metaphor, similehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simile, or personification.

Are your decisions about your body always right? Who tells you they're wrong?

No but I'm at least willing to hear them out when somebody rejects my thoughts.

If she asks for your opinion, or if she's family or a loved one you can offer your opinion. But if she doesn't ask, or doesn't listen when you give it anyway, what then? Will you force a sandwich down her throat? Sorry to have to tell you this, but sometimes, you have no choice but to mind your own damn business.

IF they don't listen to reason than they are lost. If your trying to convert somebody to a religion and they straight out reject you then they are at their lost and there's little more you can do. However you should heed your own advice and let that body of cells which you reject as a human live its life and "mind your own damn business"

You're trying to make that decision for women who disagree with you on abortion.

This is a forum....

It's also common sense to keep your nose out of a woman's private business.

If it doesn't put another s life in danger i don't care.

Please enlighten me! I can't wait!
I think you should get a vasectomy. Are you listening to my opinion?

Please state your basis on why i should have one. or better PM me so we can stay on topic.

Why? Are pregnant women seeking a debate about what they should do? You seem to think all women are just waiting by the phone for you to offer your two cents. We're not. When you have a medical issue, do you open a forum here seeking a debate on what you should do?

Well you seem give off the appearance you know exactly what all pregnant women think and debating this idea.

This forum was opened before i got here, and i have in the past made forums for certain medical issues for advice so yes.

When you're pregnant, then you can have an opinion. You can decide not to have an abortion yourself.
Who are you to say whether it's fine or not? Who made you the moral guardian of women everywhere?

So all doctors have to be pregnant to understand childcare? and you think you should take away the 1st amendment because of my lack of experience? Again i point to the constitution which is the law of land that all humans should have and I'm empowered by its law to stand for what i believe. what puts you in a position on what i can and cannot say?

Again as to the legality, Do you support gun-ownership? its legal to carry an AR, and you can have a sidearm near everywhere you go (in your house purse or vehicle) If you reject to the carrying of anything like this your are not in full support of the law and by the 1st amendment your allowed that, doesn't mean its right or wrong.

 

[SithDoughnut]

So i didn't have a brain and now i do, so therefore killing things without a brain is right. and because somebody doesn't reply doesn't mean its a yes.

Did I say abortion was right? No. I've merely said that it should be an option. As I've said, we know that the foetus does not care. If it were to be given the option of objecting, it would not, because it is incapable of objecting or agreeing or anything that involves concious thought.

With time it chooses it wants so your trying to rob it of time therefore its unable to make a choice.

Can people just give up with the potential argument? If I am in court, and someone asks me a question which I do not answer at all, does that mean that if they then assume an answer or try to force me to give one, they are robbing me of time?

The future is irrelevant.

a clump of cells that is an individual organism in the womb.... Fingernails are inanimate and even with time they will not produce intelligence nor are they human but part of a human.

They are as human as the rest of me; they contain exactly the same human DNA. The foetus is part of the mother like fingernails are. It cannot survive on it's own - when it can, then you can consider it an individual organism. And again, the potential argument is useless. The foetus is not guaranteed to be born if we leave it alone.

A cow is not human therefore cows do not get the rights of humans. a fetus will turn into a human a cow will never be a human.

Dead bodies are human - do they get the full set of human rights? If something is made from human cells, it is human, after all.

Or were you thinking of people? That's a different thing entirely. Foetuses are not people.

I have a question - do you support free medical care for life?

 

[IzzyPop]

Meat from cows is a cow not a human see above remark.

Life is life, though. Why is human life so special?

Your concerned mothers are giving their infants fake breast milk? i drive to point A&B with my car, i do carpool to save money, don't get me started on global warming . Sweat shops are crimes against working conditions not against the right to live.

Not the point. Nestle and various oil companies have supported harsh regimes that have a tendency to kill those locals that get too vocal. By purchasing gasoline or chocolate (or diamonds or gold or coffee from certain companies) you are helping end life. Our choices cause death every day.

like process of selection if you need to eat and you have a cow and a calf u eat the calf due to the fact the cow can have more calves, and the calves can't survive without the essentials of life...

But shouldn't human life be about more than survival? We have reached a point where we have enough (here in the West, at least) that mere survival is not enough. Why force people into situations like that?

But why is the clinic on fire and why am i going in.

Does it matter? You can stay outside and watch it burn, but if you were to go in, would the people working there or the cryotanks full of fetuses be your priority?

 

[Duckybill]

Okay then.

The article I got my information from can be found here. Another article with similar findings can be found here.

Now, your evidence, please?



So show me some evidence that refutes what I found out.



Not making any judgment at all, just looking for facts.



Hey, if you can quote god on the matter, be my guest! But absent that, any reliable source will do for a start.

-- A2SG, I assume you have at least one.....

None of which proves anything. You're giving opinions and that is not proof.

 

[Duckybill]

There is no reason to believe that it does. There has never been any indication that it can. The nessesary components needed for thought are not even in place at the time of most abortions.
Unless you think every abortion takes place at 25 weeks I am sure you see the point.

That's only opinion.

 

[selfinflikted]

That's only opinion.

No, that's science.

 

[Duckybill]

No, that's science.

Which OFTEN changes.

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

Which OFTEN changes.

Argueably a arguement from ignorance.
Keep up the high quality counterarguements now.

Any real arguements left? Or should I be allowed to be of the opinion that say.. To stab another human actually makes them stronger? Cause you know that whole medicine thing is just science which always changes.

 

[Skaloop]

That's only opinion.

It's pretty much the opposite of opinion.

If you waid you ad a tricked-out Lamborghini in your garage, and I observed that you didn't have a garage, that's not opinion, that's observation of fact. And saying that no, you don't have a tricked-out Lamborghini in your garage isn't opinion either, its also observation of fact. The Lamborghini part can be dismissed because the garage part doesn't exist.

Similarly, you can claim that a fetus has function in it's brain, and I can show that it doesn't actually have a brain, so there cannot be any function.

 

[selfinflikted]

Which OFTEN changes.

That's one of the best things about science.

 

[Skaloop]

Which OFTEN changes.

Not on this issue.

 

[Duckybill]

Argueably a arguement from ignorance.
Keep up the high quality counterarguements now.

Any real arguements left? Or should I be allowed to be of the opinion that say.. To stab another human actually makes them stronger? Cause you know that whole medicine thing is just science which always changes.

Wanna talk about true ignorance? Science is often wrong and has killed millions.

"Doctors Are Third-Leading Cause of Death in U.S."

"Accidental death from prescription drugs, even when they are correctly given, is now the fourth leading cause of death in the U.S."

Accidental Death From Prescription Drugs

 

[Skaloop]

Wanna talk about true ignorance? Science is often wrong and has killed millions.

"Doctors Are Third-Leading Cause of Death in U.S."

"Accidental death from prescription drugs, even when they are correctly given, is now the fourth leading cause of death in the U.S."

Accidental Death From Prescription Drugs

Neither of which has anything to do with the capacity of a fetus to feel pain or make cognitive decisions.

 

[Duckybill]

Neither of which has anything to do with the capacity of a fetus to feel pain or make cognitive decisions.

That's your opinion. You cannot prove it.