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Ampmonster

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"amp- you're really good at taking things to the extreme. so obviously because i gain pleasure from eating i shouldnt eat. or sleep or going to church all feel good so i shouldnt do that either."
...not all things that feel good are right.
listen i speak from experience.
 
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Ampmonster

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ok. stuff feels good. some right, some wrong. the thing were talking about, pre marital, promiscuous sex results in life being created, and subsequently terminated for mere convienience. (disclaimer: not talking about the few cases of rape etc)
cant you see what's wrong with that?
 
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panterapat

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DXRocker73,

Bravo! But I'll have to disagree on the life of the mother exception. This is an extremely rare occurance. And when a mother's life is threatened, the life of BOTH humans needs to be given protection. A distressed preborn baby may die in childbirth but there is no reason to hasten the process. It is almost ninexistant that an abortion is the only solution to the health of the mother.
 
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BigToe

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hey i vote pro choice, remembe i said i dont like the idea of abortion? ideally i think there should me limitations on abortion. i dont think it should be used as a method of "birth control" in the sense you're talking about. and i think if women go in and get lots of them they shouldnt be allowed to anymore. they should be taught what being responsible for their actions means.

but i still think it should be legal. better have some regulations and standards on it than none at all
 
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cougan

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New Scientific Evidence Affirms the Worth of Pre-Born Children

by Wayne Jackson
Christian Courier: Penpoints
Monday, March 24, 2003


Is the pre-born human a “person” or a mere blob of tissue? Increasingly, science is affirming personhood for the unborn child. Some authorities are now asserting that the “consciousness” of children develops in the womb. This has serious implications for the abortion controversy.


In the sixth month of her pregnancy with John (later to be called the “Baptizer”), the aged Elizabeth, wife of Zacharias, was visited by her kinswoman, Mary of Nazareth. The latter informed Elizabeth that she too would bear a child. When the glad tidings were revealed to the elderly kinswoman, she was “filled with the Holy Spirit,” and her voice burst forth in praise.

Luke, the author of the narrative (and a physician by profession - Col. 4:14), records that the baby “leaped in her womb” (Lk. 1:41). Elizabeth interpreted the response as a leap of “joy” (v. 44). While the event was obviously supernatural, it provides the devout Bible student with pause to wonder what extent a pre-born child may be able to experience what could be called “consciousness”? [Note: I love the comment of that crusty old scholar, the late R.C.H. Lenski, who wrote of this incident: “Skeptics may scoff, but the Spirit of God operates without respect to them.”]

Many authorities believe that there is a level of consciousness in the pre-born child. Not a few physicians counsel mothers and fathers to talk to their baby, while it is yet in the mother’s body; parents are encouraged to read to their coming offspring, and to play soothing music for the child. There is a strong feeling among some professionals that even a degree of “learning” may take place in the womb.

When does a newly-conceived child first begin to experience consciousness? Numerous persons within the medical field believe that human “awareness” begins in the womb—perhaps a considerable while before the time of birth. This possibility has caused some medical personnel to take another look at the question of abortion.

Recently, one of Great Britain’s leading brain scientists, Baroness Greenfield, a professor of neurology at Oxford University, and the director of the Royal Institution, raised some English eyebrows when she insisted that fetuses are “conscious” before birth.

In Great Britain, a fetus must be at least 24 weeks along in the gestation process before abortion is illegal. Professor Greenfield contends, however, that there is evidence to demonstrate that a “conscious mind” could develop before the 24-week timeline.

The fact is, many neurologists believe it is possible for a fetus to feel pain before the 24-week potential abortion date. Some are so “sensitive” to this circumstance that they suggest that some form of anaesthetic should be given to the fetus before the termination is performed.

David Derbyshire, a science correspondent for Britain’s News Telegraph, (citing a poll taken last year among English neurologists), has stated:

Many believed fetuses should be given anaesthetics during a late abortion, after 20 weeks. Some also believe pain relief should be given for keyhole surgery in the womb (news.telegraph.co.uk – March 11, 2003).​

This is the manner in which many states in our own nation now accommodate criminals who have committed capital crimes. Execution without an anesthetic, they allege, is cruel and unusual punishment. The “compassion” and “morality” of social liberalism is touching indeed.

Some authorities suggest that human “consciousness” is “switched-on” at a certain point in the child’s development, but Professor Greenfield is skeptical of that theory. She believes that the evidence indicates that there is a gradual development of consciousness, as neurons progressively connect with one another. Though Greenfield has not yet called for any revision of Great Britain’s abortion laws, she has expressed “serious concerns” about the consciousness of the pre-born child, and the ethics of taking the life of a conscious individual.

Derbyshire mentions that in 2001 a Medical Research Council expert group “called for more sensitive treatment” of very premature babies. All of this appears to suggest some positive movement in the right direction, but it has light-years yet to go.

Issues to Contemplate



There are a couple of moral issues that come to mind when one reflects upon this matter.

  1. Is mere “consciousness” the criterion for humanness? If so, does that imply that any person who is incapable of an “awareness” of his environment has forfeited his “humanness,” and so may be deprived of those rights normally extended to humans.

    The implication clearly is this: the non-conscious person would be amenable to extinction at the whim of society. If that is the case, then all of those pitiful fellows among us who now are comatose, as a result of tragic accidents, etc., could be (perhaps should be) exterminated. Who can live with that conclusion? Mere “consciousness” is not the standard for humanness.
  2. If the pre-24-week fetus is not a human being, why be concerned about any response to pain? Are scientists concerned about “pain” in an isolated human cell, or in a mere “blob” of tissue?

Conclusion



We unapologetically reiterate this charge. There is no advocate of human abortion who is able to argue his case effectively, relying strictly on scientific data and sound reasoning principles – to say nothing of the moral code of biblical revelation.

The sad reality is this. Many medical experts are sorely troubled, in the depths of their consciences, with the unrelenting slaughter of innocent, pre-born children. But they are on a “runaway train”; and they are fearful of the cost of escape. Society has legalized this brutality, and the human spirit has been numbed to the atrocity. Many weep in secret, tormented by what they do, but due to personal or financial considerations, they continue in the bloody trade. It is the duty of those who believe that human life is sacred, by virtue of divine creation and Creator’s sovereignty, to continue to lift their voices in protest to this holocaust. May God sustain morally-oriented people to open the eyes of those who have so cheapened human worth.
 
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Ampmonster

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"i dont think it should be used as a method of "birth control" in the sense you're talking about. and i think if women go in and get lots of them they shouldnt be allowed to anymore. they should be taught what being responsible for their actions means. "

i talk in this sense because its the most widely used. if you give an option to the masses, they'll take it. this ties into our other thread on socailism.
 
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BigToe

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right, and i am talking about things in the ideal use of them. not in the real world use of them. ideally no one would ever have to resort to abortion, but thats not what happens in the real world is it?
 
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BigToe

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again, you make the few exceptions to the rule stop and i'll change my opinion.

let me take a step back and explain my position. i was raped in jan. now i didnt get pregnant and dont think i would have had an abortion had i gotten pregnant, i definately understand those who would and do. and i don't negatively judge them.
 
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Ampmonster

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oh my god....
i'd like to say i "fully" understand where you come from. but i never will.
what im saying.... thats THE awful extreme. that we P lifers might accept even. but you cannot cater to the extreme in social situations. because catering to the extreme will lead to those NOT affected by the extreme to take advanage of those that do.
*requires more time*
 
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BigToe

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hey i'd be all for having limitations on abortion. like going through an "interview" process to find out why. keep a database of who has had them and if they keep popping up deny them the right. don't get me wrong, its not like i tell people to go out and get an abortion.

but i do think there needs to be that option in extreme cases.

and i aslo dont think that my personal decisions and opinions should FORCE others to live by the same
 
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