Abortion

[ceo]

the OT is clear, anyone that brings harm to the fruit of the womb (an unborn) shall meet LIFE FOR A LIFE punishment

 

[Clem is Me]

the OT is clear, anyone that brings harm to the fruit of the womb (an unborn) shall meet LIFE FOR A LIFE punishment

And are you following through on this?

 

[Samsara]

What are your feelings on abortion? Also, when do you think that human life begins?

My feelings on abortion are not relevant.

We can postulate all day until the cockroaches crow on what makes a separate biological entity from the woman who is pregnant but until a few things happen this debate is and always will be moot:

1) Until women are viewed as equal with men.
2) Until violence against women ceases.
3) Until issues of morality leave the premarital sex/adultery/rape/incest realm.
4) Until slang vulgar words describing women ceases.
5) Until we can feed the children the world already has.
6) Until money is no longer the price tag for a human's worth.
7) Until alcohol and drugs no longer play a part in our society.
8) Until domestic abuse on children, women, and men is eradicated.
9) Until racism ceases.
10) Until poverty is not looked upon as a social disease.
11) Until parents get away from abuse/neglect/absenteeism and back to parenting.

We have a few inherent problems with our world view that precedes this abortion issue but yet it's still the most oft arised issue of debate in political and religious arenas. Why is that? Because putting the burden of the world's failings on a woman having an abortion or not having an abortion is the last bastion of hope?

Before doing that I would look to see where it is we're going wrong in the world to make it seem necessary for women to even desire the need to choose an abortion.

Love, Peace, and Light,
Samsara

 

[Machjo]

I am Anti-Abortion in all cases, across the board.

You just can't kill children in my opinion.

Oh man you have no sense of humour. The post just before that suggested we abort the Iraq war. Wouldn't that save a lot of lives!

 

[Machjo]

My feelings on abortion are not relevant.

We can postulate all day until the cockroaches crow on what makes a separate biological entity from the woman who is pregnant but until a few things happen this debate is and always will be moot:

1) Until women are viewed as equal with men.
2) Until violence against women ceases.
3) Until issues of morality leave the premarital sex/adultery/rape/incest realm.
4) Until slang vulgar words describing women ceases.
5) Until we can feed the children the world already has.
6) Until money is no longer the price tag for a human's worth.
7) Until alcohol and drugs no longer play a part in our society.
8) Until domestic abuse on children, women, and men is eradicated.
9) Until racism ceases.
10) Until poverty is not looked upon as a social disease.
11) Until parents get away from abuse/neglect/absenteeism and back to parenting.

We have a few inherent problems with our world view that precedes this abortion issue but yet it's still the most oft arised issue of debate in political and religious arenas. Why is that? Because putting the burden of the world's failings on a woman having an abortion or not having an abortion is the last bastion of hope?

Before doing that I would look to see where it is we're going wrong in the world to make it seem necessary for women to even desire the need to choose an abortion.

Love, Peace, and Light,
Samsara

Hmmm...

I think abortion could solve this issue too...

Let's suppose for a minute that we aborted:

sexism
violence
myopia
disrespect
selfishness
materialism
addictions
abuse
racism
classism
negligence

You're right. Once we abort these, then we could finally abort the abortion issue

 

[Clem is Me]

Don't forget willfull ignorance.

 

[Samsara]

Don't forget willfull ignorance.

In many of the above, I believe willful ignorance to be the seed that was planted, watered and nurtured before bearing this fruit. We're in spiritual death and we're rotting. We keep looking for the results to change but maintain our current way of living. We want our cake to not make us fat and rot our teeth, but we continue to eat the cake. We want our fruit to not rot but we're looking toward a diseased tree to bear healthful fruit.

Blessings, Peace, and Light,
Samsara

 

[Clem is Me]

It's inevitable. Humans learned how to use technology before they understood why they use technology. They learned how to make civilation before they knew why they make civilization. We are rats that can drive.

 

[Star_Pixels]

What are your feelings on abortion?

My feelings on abortion? Hmm... in one word, I'm appalled.

I feel like it's sexist - the one advantage we women have over men is being attacked.

I feel like it's degrading - how little we think of human life and how easy it becomes to shrug off responsibility.

I feel like it's murder - if blood is shed in the name of vanity, it is murder!

But I also feel like it is a requirement - in special cases of life and death and/or rape, but not simply because a mother THINKS she can't handle a child or selfishly wants to finish high school... if she wanted to finish high school, why did she rush to be grown up and have sex in the first place?

Also, when do you think that human life begins?

Any life begins when it's soul enter's body - when the body is first created.

 

[Clem is Me]

Because humans are evolved to have sex in our teens, and it's a more powerful instinct than getting an education.

 

[Machjo]

Don't forget willfull ignorance.

Oh yes... We ought to definitely abort that too, along with teenage sex.

And then we could finally abort abortion.

 

[Samsara]

[snipped for brevity...emphasis is mine]

But I also feel like it is a requirement - in special cases of life and death and/or rape, but not simply because a mother THINKS she can't handle a child or selfishly wants to finish high school...

People are good at assuming what's best for others because it's a generic, in theory, sort of situation. [It sounds like playing God to me.] With that sort of thinking I could say, "...not simply because a mother THINKS she can't handle a child from rape..."

Not to beat up on this opinion...in fact I appreciate it in the spirit it was intended, but many people do this and it's fallacious. [Many people does not equal correct. Many people believed the earth was flat and we revolved around the sun and yet, though we may scoff today, I wonder how many people started off with "I FEEL we are the center of the universe?"] If one follows the Bible, then abortion is wrong. Period. That's it. There is no grey cause it's in there. But if one follows the dictates of their own morality then the 'grey area' is up for individual inspection. I said individual inspection. [My coloring book lines may be different from yours.]

Selfish to finish High School... We could then say it's selfish to go to college or selfish to have a career if we see that through. But how about then going in reverse: Selfish to want to eat not from a garbage can, selfish to want to get out from their parents' home, selfish to want to get off drugs first, selfish to have any sort of life before bringing another into this paradise we call world?

I have never understood the pro-A for rape/incest but not for anything else. Rape/incest offends the sensibilities of most and not wanting to be seen as callous, people opt for that, or women, perhaps fearful if it happened to them they'd want that option...it's still a personal 'moral' issue and I think because people have never walked that path (of perceived *less* reasons than rape/incest), it's unfathomable. Because some people do exist who say that women should not have A's "... simply because a mother THINKS she can't handle a child from rape..." .

if she wanted to finish high school, why did she rush to be grown up and have sex in the first place?

Why did he? We don't seem to question the *morality* of men in these situations do we? They won't be wearing the scarlet letter, however so it's easier to pick on the women. Don't we all yet know it's a boy's job to try to get girls to have sex with them? So this mythical girl, suffering the infamous low self-esteem that often accompanies HS aged hormones, fears rejection from this boy she likes and caves in. Too bad? According to this perspective which is shared by many, yes. So another generation of past family issues can dwell within this home. Great. Now what are you going to do with her?

Peace, Light, Love & Blessings,
Samsara

 

[Marek]

Samsara -
I don't see how the issues that you listed are any more important than the issue of denying a being the right to life: an event that many people feel occurs much too often than it should.

 

[Samsara]

Samsara -
I don't see how the issues that you listed are any more important than the issue of denying a being the right to life: an event that many people feel occurs much too often than it should.

Hi Marek. Thanks for your question; I think I understand what you are asking. So please allow me to explain further.

The issues I have listed are not more important than denying the 'right to life'. The issues I have listed are the causes for the issue we are discussing. If these issues weren't present in this world and everything was 'great' would this debate be ensuing? You may disagree with this belief but my point is we have something fundamentally ill with this world which contributes to the abortion issue & it is not the abortion issue itself which is contributing to itself.

Here is a hyperbolic situation to stress the point... We have a nuclear war, AIDS is the leading cause of death for all people, treatment for alcoholism and drug abuse is now the leading cause of minors going to the hospital, 50% of all cities have gone bankrupt because the welfare state has exceeded the working class, martial law is in the streets, 1 out of 2 women are now calling domestic abuse hotlines, the divorce rate has risen to 82%, the middle class has disappeared and turned into the working poor, there is not enough police force for the cities not yet under martial law... Now in the middle of all this, "What's your personal belief on abortion?" Chances are, the Pro-Life people will still be pro-life. The Pro-Choice people are still pro-choice. Nothing has changed and the world as we know is still falling.

I don't live on the cushy blanket of bliss. I have seen more people, men/boys and women/girls in survivalist mode than I care to admit. And if you do not know survivalist mode then, indeed, you are blessed. Ignorant, through no fault of your own, but blessed. The last thing in the world these women/girls need is for anyone to share why it's important for her to carry her unborn child to term.

What I would do is try to help her meet her needs, but before I could do this effectually I would familiarize myself with Maslowe's hierarchy of needs: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/bhmasl.html
[4th paragraph is particularly noteworthy and may prove more understanding]

If people want the responsibility of expressing their PL opinion, I believe they bear the responsibility of the opinion through. I'll sense some eyes rolling with that statement but I too often see people throwing their opinions about as if there are no consequences for them if their opinion or instruction is followed. It's called accountability and I'm a strong believer in it.

So from where I sit, it's not encouraging or productive to debate the morality or reasons why it should or should not happen when the most fundamental issues remain unaddressed. So again I ask the question regarding the baby that has just been spared, "Now what are you going to do with her?"

Peace and Light,
Samsara

 

[Diane_Windsor]

What are your feelings on abortion?

Like Senator John Kerry I am very much pro-choice and do believe that abortion should be rare, legal, and safe.

Also, when do you think that human life begins?

Human life begins when our "form" receives our soul. Since the Bible is silent on when this infusion takes place (and thus abortion) then it is between the woman and God Almighty.

Case closed.

 

[Star_Pixels]

People are good at assuming what's best for others because it's a generic, in theory, sort of situation. [It sounds like playing God to me.] With that sort of thinking I could say, "...not simply because a mother THINKS she can't handle a child from rape..."

I never said anything about rape, except that it was a neccessary. Women are more sensitive to THAT sort of pain than anything else. Not only that, but I've seen women have babies and complete their school without hendering it once. If it works for Anne, why can't it work for Mary, who's in the exact same situation?

Not to beat up on this opinion...in fact I appreciate it in the spirit it was intended, but many people do this and it's fallacious. [Many people does not equal correct. Many people believed the earth was flat and we revolved around the sun and yet, though we may scoff today, I wonder how many people started off with "I FEEL we are the center of the universe?"] If one follows the Bible, then abortion is wrong. Period. That's it. There is no grey cause it's in there. But if one follows the dictates of their own morality then the 'grey area' is up for individual inspection. I said individual inspection. [My coloring book lines may be different from yours.]

I don't follow the bible, so solly cholly.

Selfish to finish High School... We could then say it's selfish to go to college or selfish to have a career if we see that through. But how about then going in reverse: Selfish to want to eat not from a garbage can, selfish to want to get out from their parents' home, selfish to want to get off drugs first, selfish to have any sort of life before bringing another into this paradise we call world?

Who says having a baby will force a lady to be poor? I mean, for pity's sake, you're talking about extremely hateful parents that children shouldn't be around in the first place!

And get off drugs first? Lady, that baby is going to be BORN dead if the mother is doing drugs.

I have never understood the pro-A for rape/incest but not for anything else.

Uh, because rape is a cruel torture that you'd be reminded of every day, and incest never brings forth a normal child.

I don't understand how one can support cosmetic abortion but then get hissy over somebody who's raped.

Why did he? We don't seem to question the *morality* of men in these situations do we?

Oh dear, you've assumed too much. It's not the man getting the abortion, is it?

 

[Aimee30]

I, for one think, it is selfish to kill a child that cannot speak for itself, but that's just me. It's really not the child's fault it was conceived. I just can't see having justice over a rapist by killing the child who has done nothing wrong.

I have heard that most who are raped can go to the hospital right away and they can give you something that stops the pregnancy from starting.

 

[Kris_J]

I would suspect that abortions will never be stopped & that it would be unwise to stop it by making it illegal. If they make abortion illegal, that will just open up a niche market in the drug scene. There would be abortion drugs smuggled into the country - or people desperate & wealthy enough will travel overseas to get abortions.

The best our countries can do is educate our youth. The pressure should be on the parents to give their children sufficient life skills, having ambitions, dreams, careers, & family planning, & to value their future.

 

[Licy]

Life begins at the moment of the conception. When a woman gets a pregnacy test the results are not partially positive. There is not a partial pregnancy. You are pregnant or you are not. And if you are pregnant is because there is a life present inside of you. I have the experience to have fight and seen babies fighting for their lives. I have 2 premature babies and they were alive since the first moment. Life is not something that man should decide and if one of the babies I had almost died and God saved this life; what can make a human being believe he/she has the right to decide over other's life? A woman could be preety much the owner of her body but she is not the owner of God's lives and this is what babies are. A baby is a baby since the very first moment the conception ocurs. A woman who do this kind of crime doesn't know how it feels to see your baby almost dying in a cold hospital NICU.

 

[tcampen]

I am one of those non-extreme, focus on the rational types. I would prefer there were never another abortion wanted or performed, but also recognize that making abortions illegal will not make them go away, or arguably reduce them either. That makes me one of those pro-life & pro-choice types, I suppose. But that's not my point...

My brother and his wife were unable to conceive a child the usual way. This left in vitro fertilization as the only viable method of having a child. This process takes the several of the mother's eggs and father's sperm, and fertilizes the egg outside the mother's body. The best three or four fertilized eggs are then selected and implanted into the mother, with the hopes one of them will attach and the mother will become pregnant. Some of those fertilized eggs will necessarily die in the process. The unused fertilized eggs will be frozen for possible later use, or discarded altogether. No matter what, the in vitro process will necessarily result in the destruction of some fertilized eggs, either by the lab or the mother's body.

This, being the funtional equivilent of an abortion, should be just as objected to by those who hold human life begins at conception, with all the full moral and legal rights to life as anyone one else. I rarely see this among anti-abortionists.

For those of you who absolutely believe human rights begin at conception, then you must also believe my brother should not have is son right now. I cannot agree with that position, especially knowing my nephew.

It is exactly these kinds of difficult issues that require me to take a more moderate view on the abortion issue. I cannot put the recently fertilized egg on the same level as fully grown adult, newborn child, or even a fetus at 8 months of pregnancy. Qualitatively, it isn't even close. Where to draw the line is a very difficult question - and one I don't pretend to have an answer to, nor will I adopt an arbitrary bright line for its convenience and ease. Thus I reject either extreme of attaching human rights as early as the moment of fertilization or as late as physical birth. The law in the U.S. recongizes this difficultly, and this grey area, as do I.

So, while we currently choose to divide on this issue, I suggest we work harder to find common ground. Let us all work together to vastly decrease the reasons one would want to have an abortion. Let us ensure that no woman who is pregant will ever have to worry about the future for her unborn child whether or not she chooses to keep it or give it up for adoption. Let us drop the enflamatory language and words, such as "murder," and work towards viable solutions. Making abortion illegal will not make abortions go away, so lets work towards real answers on both sides.

My 2 cents.