Abortion - My thoughts

[wiggsfly]

Excellent post. So many are so consumed by an issue that does really exist to politicians except to give lip service to lure voters.

What really saddens me is that even though neither party has any real motivation to stop abortion, there are other aspects to the pro-life cause in which the parties differ greatly yet they are totally ignored by many voters.

 

[G1000]

You think every person that gets an abortion is a young woman?

I don't know what to tell you pal. I don't need anyone lecturing me on the effects of abortion & I sure as hell am not going to post anything personal on a messageboard concerning this.

Well a step would be not participating in an argument based thread.. That would be a good idea if you don't want to talk about this issue or don't want anyone to reply to your theories. And ehm.. No ones going to make you post anything so calm down..

I'll say it again, just because BO is black is no reason to exclude him from the criticism every president before him has endured. It has nothing to do with him being black. I think that is ludicrious & very far reaching. Just the way things are. Get used to it.

Ok, you are now using the black aspect in the fashion that you have been claiming me to using. Don't go overboard because black can be criticized like white.. Its like your now criticizing more because you feel this right to criticize blacks.. No one is imagining anything here.. The only time im bringing up the racial issue, is in cases where I have directly heard racial discrimination connected to the current president. Im not saying, oh the president is black so lets not get mad at him for his wrongdoings.. Thats what you seem to think im saying..

So go eat your fish and have a good day..

 

[Foundthelight]

2003 abortion data from the CDC

Abortion Surveillance --- United States, 2003

Problem/Condition: CDC began abortion surveillance in 1969 to document the number and characteristics of women obtaining legal induced abortions.
Reporting Period Covered: This report summarizes and describes data voluntarily reported to CDC regarding legal induced abortions obtained in the United States in 2003.
Description of System: For each year since 1969, CDC has compiled abortion data by state or area of occurrence. During 1973--1997, data were received from or estimated for 52 reporting areas in the United States: 50 states, the District of Columbia, and New York City. In 1998 and 1999, CDC compiled abortion data from 48 reporting areas. Alaska, California, New Hampshire, and Oklahoma did not report, and data for these states were not estimated. During 2000--2002, Oklahoma again reported these data, increasing the number of reporting areas to 49, and for 2003, Alaska again reported and West Virginia did not, maintaining the number of reporting areas at 49.
Results: A total of 848,163 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC for 2003 from 49 reporting areas, representing a 0.7% decline from the 854,122 legal induced abortions reported by 49 reporting areas for 2002. The abortion ratio, defined as the number of abortions per 1,000 live births, was 241 in 2003, a decrease from the 246 in 2002. The abortion rate was 16 per 1,000 women aged 15--44 years for 2003, the same as for 2002. For the same 47 reporting areas, the abortion rate remained relatively constant during 1998--2003. During 2001--2002 (the most recent years for which data are available), 15 women died as a result of complications from known legal induced abortion. One death was associated with known illegal abortion.
The highest percentages of reported abortions were for women who were unmarried (82%), white (55%), and aged <25 years (51%). Of all abortions for which gestational age was reported, 61% were performed at <8 weeks' gestation and 88% at <13 weeks. From 1992 (when detailed data regarding early abortions were first collected) through 2002, steady increases have occurred in the percentage of abortions performed at <6 weeks' gestation, with a slight decline in 2003. A limited number of abortions were obtained at >15 weeks' gestation, including 4.2% at 16--20 weeks and 1.4% at >21 weeks. A total of 36 reporting areas submitted data documenting that they performed and enumerated medical (nonsurgical) procedures, making up 8.0% of all known reported procedures from the 45 areas with adequate reporting on type of procedure.

 

[Foundthelight]

Someone in this thread said that abortion saves lives. Whoever you are you are correct. a handful of women's lives were saved by abortion.

At the cost of 848,163 other lives.

How many of those 848,163 deaths were necessary to save the life of the mother?

 

[Foundthelight]

Mmm, this data is invalid, it's 6 years old. If you haven't noticed, it's currently 2009... Almost 2010, please get some updated information to shove in people's faces, thanks. Also, I'm in the middle for abortion, it depends how you want the population to be. If you want higher pop, you okay abortion and if you want pop lower you kill abortion. Really depends how you want the pop to be, but because America believes in equal rights, blah blah blah we okay it.

I beg your pardon, but we are dealing with a government agency compiling data that no one else wants to.

You are right though. there is newer data available. 2004. Is that new enough for you?

Here it is!

But, before we get to that can you support your contention that abortion increases population?

Abortion Surveillance --- United States, 2004

Problem/Condition: CDC began abortion surveillance in 1969 to document the number and characteristics of women obtaining legal induced abortions.
Reporting Period Covered: This report summarizes and describes data voluntarily reported to CDC regarding legal induced abortions obtained in the United States in 2004.
Description of System: For each year since 1969, CDC has compiled abortion data by state or area of occurrence. During 1973--1997, data were received from or estimated for 52 reporting areas in the United States: 50 states, the District of Columbia, and New York City. In 1998 and 1999, CDC compiled abortion data from 48 reporting areas. Alaska, California, New Hampshire, and Oklahoma did not report, and data for these states were not estimated. During 2000--2002, Oklahoma again reported these data, increasing the number of reporting areas to 49; for 2003 and 2004, Alaska again reported and West Virginia did not, maintaining the number of reporting areas at 49.
Results: A total of 839,226 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC for 2004 from 49 reporting areas, representing a 1.1% decline from the 848,163 legal induced abortions reported by 49 reporting areas for 2003. The abortion ratio, defined as the number of abortions per 1,000 live births, was 238 in 2004, a decrease from the 241 in 2003. The abortion rate was 16 per 1,000 women aged 15--44 years for 2004, the same since 2000. For the same 47 reporting areas, the abortion rate remained relatively constant during 1998--2004. In 2003 (the most recent years for which data are available), 10 women died as a result of complications from known legal induced abortion. No death was associated with known illegal abortion.
The highest percentages of reported abortions were for women who were known to be unmarried (80%), white (53%), and aged <25 years (50%). Of all abortions for which gestational age was reported, 61% were performed at <8 weeks' gestation and 88% at <13 weeks. From 1992 (when detailed data regarding early abortions were first collected) through 2004, steady increases have occurred in the percentage of abortions performed at <6 weeks' gestation, except for a slight decline in 2003. A limited number of abortions were obtained at >15 weeks' gestation, including 4.0% at 16--20 weeks and 1.4% at >21 weeks. A total of 35 reporting areas submitted data stating that they performed and enumerated medical (nonsurgical) procedures, making up 9.7% of all known reported procedures from the 45 areas with adequate reporting on type of procedure.

 

[Antigone]

Obama, the narcissist progressive, is the one who "didn't want his daughter PUNISHED with a baby". Blaming Bush for no movement on the issue legally is just silly. What power did he have to overturn the supreme court? No defense of Bush on other matters as I think he was a mediocre leader on everything but terrorism.

What Obama said was phrased a bit harsly, but really - imagine you're sixteen, you're poor, you've just had a baby, you're missing the prom because you can't afford a babysitter, you haven't had sleep in months, you've had a major row with your parents and to top it all of, your baby is screaming its head off because it's got cramps. Yes, you've created life and yes, you're doing your duty and yes, there will be times when you will be grateful, but do you really believe that this isn't going to feel like being punished?

Obama on abortion is - anytime, anyplace, any age, any race.

Would it honestly make you feel better if he said only black women from Georgia between the ages of 15 and 30 with an annual income between 20,000 and 25,000 could have abortions?

There is a large difference in voting for a man who is pro life and can't do anything substantive to change the abortion law, and voting for a man who is profoundly indifferent as to the rights of an unborn child. I personally never vote the issue unless all other things are equal between the candidates.

As an ardent anti-Bush sort of person I think it would be fair to point out you could just as easily argue that Bush cared only about the lives of the unborn, but not much about what comes after that. But that would be totally harsh and partisan, right?

Much of the disgust you are hearing voiced on Obama is simply his inability to look beyond his uptrnned nose, and unwillingness to look past his own glorious reflection. He is a ZERO with an EGO and many of us are disgusted by him in general.

Okay, now you're just being rude. Can we stick to the issues please? Go to newrepublic if you want to spout insults only.

You think every person that gets an abortion is a young woman?

I don't know what to tell you pal. I don't need anyone lecturing me on the effects of abortion & I sure as hell am not going to post anything personal on a messageboard concerning this.

People disagree.

I don't think he's lecturing you, Michie...You're right that skin colour shouldn't exclude him from criticism, though. The problem is, of course, that much like Bush, the sort of insults he gets flung at his head are more often than not completely unrelated to the things he does in the Office of O.

 

[Foundthelight]

What Obama said was phrased a bit harsly, but really - imagine you're sixteen, you're poor, you've just had a baby, you're missing the prom because you can't afford a babysitter, you haven't had sleep in months, you've had a major row with your parents and to top it all of, your baby is screaming its head off because it's got cramps. Yes, you've created life and yes, you're doing your duty and yes, there will be times when you will be grateful, but do you really believe that this isn't going to feel like being punished?

Was she raped or the victim of incest? If not, why does she have a baby?

As I said earlier we are in a society where media pushes gratuitous sex on our children rather than long term relationships. Let us fix that and then see the impact on the abortion rate. In the meantime she needs to live with the results of her decisions, if she was not raped or the victim of incest.

 

[Antigone]

Was she raped or the victim of incest? If not, why does she have a baby?

Does it matter?

As I said earlier we are in a society where media pushes gratuitous sex on our children rather than long term relationships. Let us fix that and then see the impact on the abortion rate. In the meantime she needs to live with the results of her decisions, if she was not raped or the victim of incest.

As much as I agree with you, you're never going to stop people from having sex.

 

[Kid Fish]

Would it honestly make you feel better if he said only black women from Georgia between the ages of 15 and 30 with an annual income between 20,000 and 25,000 could have abortions?

Nice attempt to call me a racist because I see Obama as an idiot. I also see Howard Dean as an idiot, so that means I have a bias against doctors?

Obama sees an unexpected baby as a punishment, and as a human being that makes me sick to my stomach, and it says volumes about the "man's" attitude about the unborn.

 

[Foundthelight]

Does it matter?

It matters because of something that used to be important in this country. Personal responsibility for ones actions. Personal responsibility is key.

As much as I agree with you, you're never going to stop people from having sex.

You are correct. However, we will not significantly reduce the abortion rate until men and women take responsibility and stop having sex when they are unprepared for the consequences. BTW contraceptives are not perfect. And a very few abortions are due to contraception failure.

Again, this is a societal issue. Society is accepting of unwanted pregnancies and the use of abortion to end them. We as a society need to stop throwing up our hands in resignation accepting abortion as birth control, saying that people are going to have sex anyway, and take firm action.

Comments in red.

 

[Antigone]

Foundthelight,

1. A woman's reasons for keeping her baby don't matter in this case because regardless of how she would have gotten pregnant, it is unlikely that there will never be a point in her life where she wouldn't regret having a baby. That is what Obama probably meant when he said that he didn't want his daughters punished with a baby. In that sense, pessimistic though the comment may be, it is accurate.

2. I'm not sure I get your second point. You say people should stop being promiscuous. I agree. I just don't think it is going to happen, and as long as people will have casual sex, unwanted pregnancies will develop. Criminalising abortion isn't enough, the statistics have shown that much, and while waving around signs of bloody fetuses might have changed some minds, all in all I think that's a belittling gesture that suggests you only care about your own POV and not about what comes after that - as if women don't know why they're at an abortion clinic. If we truly, deeply want to stop abortion we're going to need much more than ban MTV and visually assault people with gory signs.

 

[Antigone]

Nice attempt to call me a racist because I see Obama as an idiot. I also see Howard Dean as an idiot, so that means I have a bias against doctors?

Obama sees an unexpected baby as a punishment, and as a human being that makes me sick to my stomach, and it says volumes about the "man's" attitude about the unborn.

When, exactly, have I called you a racist?

You said:

Obama on abortion is - anytime, anyplace, any age, any race.

So if your problem with Obama is that he allows abortions everywhere, at any time, for all ages and races, logically you would approve of some restrictions?
Why would you even add the word race to that sentence anyway? That is what makes you seem more than a little worried about race distinctions. I'm not saying you are, but I can see why people might think so.
You're allowed to find Obama revolting. I just find it odd you would call him arrogant. He's your president, he's allowed to feel some sense of entitlement, and even so - does it matter if he does his job? Criticise him for his policies, not for any perceived unpleasantries you might think he has.

 

[Rhamiel]

Foundthelight,


2. I'm not sure I get your second point. You say people should stop being promiscuous. I agree. I just don't think it is going to happen, and as long as people will have casual sex, unwanted pregnancies will develop. Criminalising abortion isn't enough, the statistics have shown that much, and while waving around signs of bloody fetuses might have changed some minds, all in all I think that's a belittling gesture that suggests you only care about your own POV and not about what comes after that - as if women don't know why they're at an abortion clinic. If we truly, deeply want to stop abortion we're going to need much more than ban MTV and visually assault people with gory signs.

should we not criminalise it because it is criminal? we should be brave and call things that are evil, well call them evil. this is the killing of an unborn child, it is a barbaric act and that it is happening in a "christian" society is bind blowing.

 

[Foundthelight]

Foundthelight,

1. A woman's reasons for keeping her baby don't matter in this case because regardless of how she would have gotten pregnant, it is unlikely that there will never be a point in her life where she wouldn't regret having a baby. That is what Obama probably meant when he said that he didn't want his daughters punished with a baby. In that sense, pessimistic though the comment may be, it is accurate.

I wasn't questioning why she wanted to keep the baby. I commend her for that. I was questioning her actions in getting pregnant. That responsibility thing I mentioned.

2. I'm not sure I get your second point. You say people should stop being promiscuous. I agree. I just don't think it is going to happen, and as long as people will have casual sex, unwanted pregnancies will develop. Criminalising abortion isn't enough, the statistics have shown that much, and while waving around signs of bloody fetuses might have changed some minds, all in all I think that's a belittling gesture that suggests you only care about your own POV and not about what comes after that - as if women don't know why they're at an abortion clinic. If we truly, deeply want to stop abortion we're going to need much more than ban MTV and visually assault people with gory signs.

I wasn't talking of criminalizing. I was saying that nothing will change until society stops accepting abortion and casual sex as OK. Peer pressure is a powerful force.

We as Catholic Christians, in communion with the Church and its teachings, need to be united in saying that abortion is not acceptable. When we throw up our hands we have lost. We have an obligation to write to TV and movie studios to let them know that their current offering of shows contain unacceptable elements. Letters to the editor asking for such change works too. These are all elements of peer pressure. And political pressure.

At least these actions will have some positive effects. The criminalization argument wont.

My comments in red

 

[Foundthelight]

Just to be clear, I would love to see Doctors and Nurses taking part in abortions tried for murder.

The political fact is that such a move is too divisive for our society to accept.

So we must look to other ways.

 

[G1000]

Wow, 9 posts and you already are more annoying than a screaming child in church.

You just said it all right there.... say no more...

Your the kind of person I wrote my first post on.. The kind of people that do not think past themselves, and think the world should revolve around them and no one else.. Im either being pretty mild here, or you have some major issues with babies in general.. Babies do tend to cry and being someone who is so strongly defending pro-life, im surprised you are so hateful towards them..

 

[G1000]

Just to be clear, I would love to see Doctors and Nurses taking part in abortions tried for murder.

The political fact is that such a move is too divisive for our society to accept.

So we must look to other ways.

Its like security guards to movie stars.. They kiss donkey just because they need the job or in rare cases just want it.. A doctor would probably lose their job if they refused to go on with the operation and while that would be the right thing to do, im sure its a hard situation to be in.

 

[helenofbritain]

Mothers who get abortions live sometimes. If a mother doesn't get an abortion, she might die and also the baby.​

Got some bad news for you - someone always dies when an abortion is performed - the baby.

Also.... manners will get you everywhere. Play nicely or leave the sandpit.
​

 

[helenofbritain]

Okay, cool... Anyways, why did I get banned?

"Play nicely or leave the sandpit."

Mmm, that means I have a choice, please if you want to ban someone at least tell them so I don't have to go through this trouble to make a new account and all. Sending me to 404 page really doesn't work when your friend says it's still up. Man don't have a choice? You could have rewrited like so:

"You have been banned for not playing nicely. We wont tell you when your ban date is lifted, you're just banned."

Man, now I know why religion was separated from state.

What are you talking about?

I'm just encouraging you to use your manners. I'm not a mod.

Don't be so paranoid. If you were banned, you couldn't post.

 

[dusky_tresses]

(sigh). Now I know why I can never have a conversation with Catholics, or most other Christians for that matter, about abortion. I'm seriously better off having a conversation about abortion with a pro-life atheists...yes, people they exist.