"Abortion is murder"

[Alexander Nevsky]

The head of a Russian dairy company has threatened to sack Russian Orthodox Christian employees who have abortions or refuse a religious marriage.
Vassili Boiko-Veliki, president of Russkoe Moloko, said staff married in a civil ceremony had until 14 October to undertake a religious wedding.
Critics said the rules violated labour laws and the constitution.
The Russian Orthodox Church has experienced a revival since the fall of the officially atheist Soviet Union.
Mr Boiko-Veliki said those women who had had abortions, or chose to have one in the future, would face dismissal.
"Abortion is the murder of someone," he told the radio station, Ekho Moskvy. "We do not want to work with murderers."
Mr Boiko-Veliki was also quoted as saying that newly-hired employees who had been married in civil ceremonies would be given three months to have a religious wedding.
Even employees from other religions would be obliged to receive instruction about Russian Orthodox culture, he said.
According to Ekho Moskvy, Mr Boiko-Veliki has said that the record heatwave that hit Russia in recent weeks was divine retribution for sins committed in the past.
Russkoe Moloko has some 6,000 employees.

BBC News - Russian dairy to sack women who have abortions

 

[buzuxi02]

very good for this russian company. Western Christians have become so morally passive that our societies have crumbled before our very eyes.

 

[ma2000]

Thanks for posting.

 

[Ignatius21]

This is just a snippet of a story, so who knows how well it's really been reported.

On the one hand, yes, good for them for not backing down and simply allowing and tolerating gross sin.

On the other hand, the statement could be broadened to read:"Abortion is sin. We will not work with sinners."

I hope there is room for repentance in their stance, or they'll be out of employees very quickly.

 

[MKJ]

What about the bit with the heatwave being divine retribution? It seems to make them sound a bit odd.

 

[rusmeister]

This is actually not a good thing.

You can't force other people to become Christians, or to repent under threat of losing their job.

If he wants to hire only Orthodox Christians, that's his business, although it probably won't be a very successful one.

I suppose he could say that discovery of abortions committed from now on will result in firing, although he's on shaky legal ground, there.

Still, it's not terribly good witness for the Church.

 

[Jasoncwd]

very good for this russian company. Western Christians have become so morally passive that our societies have crumbled before our very eyes.

right on the nail dude, agreed!!

 

[Dorothea]

This is actually not a good thing.

You can't force other people to become Christians, or to repent under threat of losing their job.

If he wants to hire only Orthodox Christians, that's his business, although it probably won't be a very successful one.

I suppose he could say that discovery of abortions committed from now on will result in firing, although he's on shaky legal ground, there.

Still, it's not terribly good witness for the Church.

My feelings are running along the lines of what you are saying, rus. The part that said, "we don't want to work with murderers." Well, everyone we work with has sinned and are sinners....sure we are working on not sinning, but Christ spent an evening eating with tax collectors and other sinners. He was there to heal those who needed a physician (of the soul). The approach this man is taking is not really the most effective way, imo.

 

[MariaRegina]

My feelings are running along the lines of what you are saying, rus. The part that said, "we don't want to work with murderers." Well, everyone we work with has sinned and are sinners....sure we are working on not sinning, but Christ spent an evening eating with tax collectors and other sinners. He was there to heal those who needed a physician (of the soul). The approach this man is taking is not really the most effective way, imo.

Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy.

He must be a zealous convert suffering from convertitis.

 

[KeenanParkerII]

My feelings are running along the lines of what you are saying, rus. The part that said, "we don't want to work with murderers." Well, everyone we work with has sinned and are sinners....sure we are working on not sinning, but Christ spent an evening eating with tax collectors and other sinners. He was there to heal those who needed a physician (of the soul). The approach this man is taking is not really the most effective way, imo.

This! ^

At first I had that wave of "woo woo", but then I remembered that we are called to love the sinner and hate the sin, and what does this do but condemn the sinner? That's not our job..

 

[buzuxi02]

The employers are the only ones who have the power to return western society from its nihilism. Russia has serious moral problems and an abortion epidemic. Democratic societes haven't transformed themelves into the moral cesspools they have become overnight, its the result of decades of the people becoming incrementally more and more passive and desensitized.
Likewise only an important employer who has the guts to stand up to the modern day parents who encourage their children to harlot themselves will things change.

Christianity is ailing and falling apart as most of the posts in this thread demonstrate. Passiveness and submissiveness has become the norm. "No such thing as sin, no repercussions for sins, foregiveness for all sins, its ok to sin, etc etc. The sinner must always be foregiven, the alcoholic and the single mother and the thief. Every bad decision will be bailed out by government, is the attitude of todays western democracies.
Any religion that preaches that there is no no repercussions for sin and to foregive the sinner but hate the sin is headed towards extinction because it no longer is required. It no longer serves a purpose to society or to God.

 

[Dorothea]

The employers are the only ones who have the power to return western society from its nihilism. Russia has serious moral problems and an abortion epidemic. Democratic societes haven't transformed themelves into the moral cesspools they have become overnight, its the result of decades of the people becoming incrementally more and more passive and desensitized.
Likewise only an important employer who has the guts to stand up to the modern day parents who encourage their children to harlot themselves will things change.

Christianity is ailing and falling apart as most of the posts in this thread demonstrate. Passiveness and submissiveness has become the norm. "No such thing as sin, no repercussions for sins, foregiveness for all sins, its ok to sin, etc etc. The sinner must always be foregiven, the alcoholic and the single mother and the thief. Every bad decision will be bailed out by government, is the attitude of todays western democracies.
Any religion that preaches that there is no no repercussions for sin and to foregive the sinner but hate the sin is headed towards extinction because it no longer is required. It no longer serves a purpose to society or to God.

Well, we are to forgive all or we will not be forgiven, says the Lord, buzuxi. This, of course, in no way means that I condone any sinful behaviors. Abortion IS murder, and is horrible and of the Evil One, but I just don't agree with the employer's approach. There has to be a better alternative approach.

 

[buzuxi02]

Well, we are to forgive all or we will not be forgiven, says the Lord, buzuxi. This, of course, in no way means that I condone any sinful behaviors. Abortion IS murder, and is horrible and of the Evil One, but I just don't agree with the employer's approach. There has to be a better alternative approach.

Whats the alternative? Why shouldnt there be repercussions? Should we say, dont worry have as many abortions and orgys as you please, the church and God and society will always foregive you. Are christians hedonists?
Also its good that society has taught all their children that no matter how much they harlot themselves and take drugs and have affairs its beneficial for society and the church.
Western society has become so desensitized that morality no longer exists, personal holiness is evil, theosis is only for some idiot savant monks, and the only gospel worthy to preach is when you give a dollar to some homeless person and protest an occasional war.

 

[Dorothea]

Whats the alternative? Why shouldnt there be repercussions? Should we say, dont worry have as many abortions and orgys as you please, the church and God and society will always foregive you. Are christians hedonists?
Also its good that society has taught all their children that no matter how much they harlot themselves and take drugs and have affairs its beneficial for society and the church.
Western society has become so desensitized that morality no longer exists, personal holiness is evil, theosis is only for some idiot savant monks, and the only gospel worthy to preach is when you give a dollar to some homeless person and protest an occasional war.

I can see this topic you are very passionate about, buzuxi. And I don't disagree with you the mess the communists did to the subsequent generations and the atheism that was pushed upon them, for lack of a better word. The way I understand how a Christian (an Orthodox Christian) is to handle such sinful behaviors is by good, moral examples and love. This is what Mother Gavrilia has said that I've been reading. Examples of how one should be in a loving manner turns hearts towards repentence and the more correct path, according to her and probably many other Orthodox wise folk. But, I understand this is a difficult task to take on in what is present Russia. I only know that this man's approach will not work because it will lead to people turning more away from the faith/Orthodoxy than bringing them to it. He is wanting to be like a ruling emporer in telling all how to live their lives. Telling and punishing will not convert anybody.

 

[buzuxi02]

Its not only Russia, its the entire west. How could treating people in a loving manner bring them to repentance? If i go to my priest and tell him im having an affair with the married woman next door, how will i change if he simply tells me to continue doing it? How will i change if i think God will foregive me since my priest told me so, that i know my job is secure and my drinking buddies idolize me for bing able to hook up? And of course television and the media reinforces the righteousness of such behavior.

 

[Dorothea]

Its not only Russia, its the entire west. How could treating people in a loving manner bring them to repentance? If i go to my priest and tell him im having an affair with the married woman next door, how will i change if he simply tells me to continue doing it? How will i change if i think God will foregive me since my priest told me so, that i know my job is secure and my drinking buddies idolize me for bing able to hook up? And of course television and the media reinforces the righteousness of such behavior.

I probably am not explaining myself right. You answer in a loving way what is morally right. Yes, it is not only Russia. The whole world, basically, but this is no surprise as we know how the world is to end up when He returns sometime in the future. THe example of the priest you used. The difference is your priest would tell you in a loving manner that you shouldn't be having an affair and that you should stop it. As opposed to what if he'd said, "You have done something horrible and you cannot come back to this church ever until you change your vile life! I don't want the likes of you around me or my parishioners!" Think of it this way....how well are the Evangelical Protestants (generally speaking) received by many in this country and abroad who are not Evangelicals? Those who go over and browbeat people about converting and changing... This is similar to how I see this employer....his methods are not effective, as I've said.

 

[KeenanParkerII]

Brother Buzuxi,

repentance isn't true repentance unless it is done out of love. The only way to accomplish that is through good example and right teaching. If they do not accept the good news, then they must be left to bury their own. We must shake the dust from our sandals and move on..

I understand how you feel buzuxi. When it looks like the whole world is dying, it seems a sad thing to go about our business in such a gentle manner. But that is our faith and our charge [which I do not think differs between Orthodox and Catholic]. God Bless!

 

[27B6]

Religious bigotry is not a good way to bring the light to people's hearts in my experience. How is this man's attitude and moralism substantively different from the anti-religious bigotry and secular moralism of Soviet totalitarianism?

The Orthodox Christian faith is not primarily a moralistic and authoritarian faith, but rather an existential and transformative faith. The faith teaches us that our hearts must first undergo a transformation, a sincere movement towards God in the Holy Spirit, before we will willingly begin to conform our behaviors to God's will. Without that transformation of the heart, the awareness of sin and the interior desire to not sin is weak in a person. Thus, for the authoritarian moralist, often the only way to get the unenlightened person to behave is to use coercion, threats, and force. But one who uses these tactics only shows their own sin, for these are not acts of holiness.

This is why moralism always devolves into one man using power (if the man has power) to force another to "behave", because it treats the other as an object of behavioral judgment rather than a real person. It starts with behavior and hopes the whipped man's heart will follow, and uses what the moralist believes is God's will as the whip! Frankly I consider it a kind of blasphemy to use God that way, for is not the moralist whipping another with the scourge of his judgment as Christ was whipped by the centurions? Moreover, I believe that one reason secularism has gotten such a hold on modern societies is because of Christian men like this that present a picture of God to others that is, quite frankly, offensive to basic notions of human decency and care. Who would want to be around such a person, much less work for him? Who would want to be in a church filled with such people or worship the God these people portray? It would be an insufferable experience that would drive people out of the Church, not into its loving embrace.

God lovingly respects us as persons, as icons of Himself, free in much the way He is free, not as objects or slaves to to be whipped into shape. We are called to imitate Christ, who never used coercion to bring people to Him, but rather loved the sinner and encouraged repentance for the sinner's own spiritual health. This dairy owner would do well to examine his own heart, and strive to see the image of God even in the worst of sinners, even if they are his employees. He probably thinks what he is doing is born of love, but the source of moralism is almost always a deep-rooted and passionate pride and anger, not real love.

Lord have mercy, and please forgive me, a sinner.

 

[MKJ]

Its not only Russia, its the entire west. How could treating people in a loving manner bring them to repentance? If i go to my priest and tell him im having an affair with the married woman next door, how will i change if he simply tells me to continue doing it? How will i change if i think God will foregive me since my priest told me so, that i know my job is secure and my drinking buddies idolize me for bing able to hook up? And of course television and the media reinforces the righteousness of such behavior.

A priest has a responsibility to guide his flock. An employer is not in the same position, and does not have the information to try and do so.

 

[Ignatius21]

The employers are the only ones who have the power to return western society from its nihilism. Russia has serious moral problems and an abortion epidemic. Democratic societes haven't transformed themelves into the moral cesspools they have become overnight, its the result of decades of the people becoming incrementally more and more passive and desensitized.
Likewise only an important employer who has the guts to stand up to the modern day parents who encourage their children to harlot themselves will things change.

Forgive me if I've misunderstood something obvious, but why are employers and "only" employers in such a position to return society to its moral uprightness?

I don't pretend to have an answer to what the answer actually is, but I'm pretty sure that even if we grant that any given society was at some point moral (or at least comparably more moral than today), it wasn't employers who originally got it to that state of morality. I would have to say they're just one of many, many pieces that all need to change.

And as other posts have said, where does it end? Firing people for gross sins like abortion could also go lead to firing people who don't sin quite so grossly...say, someone who lives with his girlfriend. Then maybe I can fire all the people who got divorced. That guy over there who drinks more than I think he should? Well, it isn't interfering with his work, but that's really sinful, so let's can him. Then I can fire anyone who doesn't go to church on Sunday, since that's really perhaps the source of the other sins. Then I can fire anyone who doesn't go to my church on Sunday.

Again I have no idea what the right answer is, but I'm pretty sure it isn't this. It seems more logical that filling political offices and lobbying to change society's laws might work, but the "religious right" in America have been at it for 30 years and I can't say things have really improved at all.

And as a last point, as this particular employer is human as we all are, I'll bet if his secret sins were brought to light, nobody would want to hire him either.