Abortion is Murder.

[Col3_11n12]

As the newbie to this forum who immediately jumps into a highly controversial debate, I will hereby perform a hit-and-run, inject my opinion, then promptly leave.

I am a Christian, and I don't think there is any solid Biblical foundation saying that abortion is murder. Not that it isn't, but...not that it is, either. I tend to be pro-choice for that reason. And when I say pro-choice, not pro-abortion, I mean it.... I am neither pro- nor anti-abortion. I am neutral abortion. This seems to me an issue God has entrusted to the parents' convictions. For better or worse, God has entrusted the very lives of children to parents, knowing that the parents are sinners. That's just the way God did it.

I'm outta here (tries to sprint faster than the bullets).

 

[Texas Lynn]

I'm guessing it has the DNA of a human rather than a marmoset.

So does a severed ear at a crime scene but it isn't a person either.

 

[Trashionista]

Again, what statistics do you have to prove your point. Contraceptives like the pill are 99% effective but why is it that millions of children are killed in the hands of abortion doctors yearly? Where all of these kids a mistake of contraception?

I gave that as an example, not as the be-all and end-all story of abortion. I proposed that as a possible situation.

Something you failed to do when you accused all women who have abortions of being promiscuous skanks.

 

[Hentenza]

I gave that as an example, not as the be-all and end-all story of abortion. I proposed that as a possible situation.

Something you failed to do when you accused all women who have abortions of being promiscuous skanks.

Excuse me but you are twisting my words. What I said was that the majority of the abortion are because of convenience. Also, statistics of pregnancy among teens do show promiscuity as the main reason for pregnancies that lead to abortions. The abortion statistics support that so if you have any statistics that will prove differently then please post them. I am not calling anybody names.

 

[Trashionista]

Excuse me but you are twisting my words. What I said was that the majority of the abortion are because of convenience. Also, statistics of pregnancy among teens do show promiscuity as the main reason for pregnancies that lead to abortions. The abortion statistics support that so if you have any statistics that will prove differently then please post them. I am not calling anybody names.

And teens aren't the only ones who get abortions. Might be a good idea to look at the motivations for women post-40 who get abortions, before declaring all abortions are performed on promiscuous women.

And what do you call this?

Yes, the fetus is not guilty regarding the promiscuity of the mother.

Might be smart not to speak in absolutes next time.

 

[drstevej]

Clarity

[1] Not all women who get abortions are promiscuous.
[2] Some women over 40 who get abortions are promiscuous.
[3] All women who get abortions are seeking to end their rpegnancy.

====

If a woman is not sure whether she is carrying a child or a piece of tissue (non person) should she risk terminating pregnancy?

I think in the case of clear danger to the mother's life (in carrying the baby to a point where their can be a live delivery), the choice for abortion is self defense at worst.

In all other cases the mother (oops that term implies a child), I mean woman, can never be sure she has not purposely taken an innocent life.

Question: Could it be this uncertainty and the unthinkable implications of the decision encourages one's dogmatic stance that what the woman is carrying is DEFINITELY not a person?

The result is a seared conscience. The Lady MacBeth Syndrome applied to the conscience.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Might be a good idea to look at the motivations for women post-40 who get abortions

While I understand as research that "might be a good idea" for those who seek to judge these women, minding their own business would be a much better activity for them.

 

[Texas Lynn]

If a woman is not sure whether she is carrying a child or a piece of tissue (non person) should she risk terminating pregnancy?

This sort of either/or proposition is one of not viewing the forest for the trees. A wanted pregancy often results in words, thought, and feeling by the woman and her significant others expressing the fetus as a child, and so it is. However, legally and correctly, it is not a "child" truly until after birth and any assertion otherwise is merely an emotionalistic argument for civil authority and/or moralistic finger-wagging to control her and she is properly warned to ignore such chatterings.

In all other cases the mother (oops that term implies a child), I mean woman, can never be sure she has not purposely taken an innocent life.

Question: Could it be this uncertainty and the unthinkable implications of the decision encourages one's dogmatic stance that what the woman is carrying is DEFINITELY not a person?

No, but reality and the awarenbess of it does.

The result is a seared conscience. The Lady McBeth Syndrome applied to the conscience.

The "seared conscience' is entirely the creation of those seeking to control the woman and should appropriately be disregarded.

 

[Hentenza]

Here are some statistics:

WHO HAS ABORTIONS?

• At least 80% of all abortions are performed on unmarried women (CDC).
• The abortion ratio for unmarried women is 510 abortions for every 1,000 live births. For married women it is 61 abortions for every 1,000 live births (CDC).
• Women between the ages of 20-24 obtained 33% of all abortions (CDC).
• 50% of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25; women aged 20-24 obtain 33% of all U.S. abortions and teenagers obtain 17% (AGI).
• Adolescents under 15 years obtained less than 1% of all abortions, but have the highest abortion ratio, 773 abortions for every 1,000 live births (CDC).
• 47% of women who have abortions had at least one previous abortion (AGI)

http://abort73.com/HTML/II-A-abortion_statistics.html



Here is a study covering the reasons given for an abortion.

Reasons given for having abortions in the United States

by Wm. Robert Johnston
last updated 9 October 2008

Summary: This report reviews available statistics regarding reasons given for obtaining abortions in the United States, including surveys by the Alan Guttmacher Institute and data from seven state health/statistics agencies that report relevant statistics (Arizona, Florida, Louisiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, South Dakota, and Utah). The official data imply that AGI claims regarding "hard case" abortions are inflated by roughly a factor of three. Actual percentage of U.S. abortions in "hard cases" are estimated as follows: in cases of rape or incest, 0.3%; in cases of risk to maternal health or life, 1%; and in cases of fetal abnormality, 0.5%. About 98% of abortions in the United States are elective, including socio-economic reasons or for birth control. This includes perhaps 30% for primarily economic reasons.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html
​

 

[Texas Lynn]

Here are some statistics:

WHO HAS ABORTIONS?

• At least 80% of all abortions are performed on unmarried women (CDC).
• The abortion ratio for unmarried women is 510 abortions for every 1,000 live births. For married women it is 61 abortions for every 1,000 live births (CDC).
• Women between the ages of 20-24 obtained 33% of all abortions (CDC).
• 50% of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25; women aged 20-24 obtain 33% of all U.S. abortions and teenagers obtain 17% (AGI).
• Adolescents under 15 years obtained less than 1% of all abortions, but have the highest abortion ratio, 773 abortions for every 1,000 live births (CDC).
• 47% of women who have abortions had at least one previous abortion (AGI)

http://abort73.com/HTML/II-A-abortion_statistics.html



Here is a study covering the reasons given for an abortion.

Reasons given for having abortions in the United States

by Wm. Robert Johnston
last updated 9 October 2008

Summary: This report reviews available statistics regarding reasons given for obtaining abortions in the United States, including surveys by the Alan Guttmacher Institute and data from seven state health/statistics agencies that report relevant statistics (Arizona, Florida, Louisiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, South Dakota, and Utah). The official data imply that AGI claims regarding "hard case" abortions are inflated by roughly a factor of three. Actual percentage of U.S. abortions in "hard cases" are estimated as follows: in cases of rape or incest, 0.3%; in cases of risk to maternal health or life, 1%; and in cases of fetal abnormality, 0.5%. About 98% of abortions in the United States are elective, including socio-economic reasons or for birth control. This includes perhaps 30% for primarily economic reasons.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html
​

Regardless of the reasons, if a woman wants an abortion that is her business and it is most definitely not the business of society to wag its collective finger. The right to abortion by women should be absolute within medical protocols.

 

[drstevej]

This sort of either/or proposition is one of not viewing the forest for the trees. A wanted pregancy often results in words, thought, and feeling by the woman and her significant others expressing the fetus as a child, and so it is. However, legally and correctly, it is not a "child" truly until after birth and any assertion otherwise is merely an emotionalistic argument for civil authority and/or moralistic finger-wagging to control her and she is properly warned to ignore such chatterings.


No, but reality and the awarenbess of it does.



The "seared conscience' is entirely the creation of those seeking to control the woman and should appropriately be disregarded.

Seems like the moralistic, finger-wagging chattering is in the eye of the beholder. Back-at-ya.

And this is hardly more than dogmatism and subjectivism.

Do you deny the concept of a seared conscience? It is a biblical concept.

 

[Hentenza]

Regardless of the reasons, if a woman wants an abortion that is her business and it is most definitely not the business of society to wag its collective finger. The right to abortion by women should be absolute within medical protocols.

So the baby has no rights? Just condemned to death without a trial or cause?

 

[Ave Maria]

So the baby has no rights? Just condemned to death without a trial or cause?

I personally do not believe the zygote, embryo, or fetus to have rights.

 

[drstevej]

Regardless of the reasons, if a woman wants an abortion that is her business and it is most definitely not the business of society to wag its collective finger. The right to abortion by women should be absolute within medical protocols.

I sure am thankful that not all feel as you do, otherwise my 22 year old son would be dead. His birth mom chose to allow him to live amid difficult circumstances. It was hard for her; but my son (by adoption) is a wonderful guy and a blessing to so many. And her conscience is clear.

When he was helpless in the womb, his mom was counseled to consider adoption rather than abortion.

Btw, my son made chicken jumbalaya for us tonight. Mighty tasty.

 

[Ave Maria]

I sure am thankful that not all feel as you do, otherwise my 22 year old son would be dead. His birth mom chose to allow him to live amid difficult circumstances. It was hard for her; but my son (by adoption) is a wonderful guy and a blessing to so many. And her conscience is clear.

When he was helpless in the womb, his mom was counseled to consider adoption rather than abortion.

Btw, my son made chicken jumbalaya for us tonight. Mighty tasty.

I'm a little bit confused. But then again, I just woke up. Perhaps you can explain this to me. How would your son be dead if his birth mom chose to allow him to live?

 

[Texas Lynn]

So the baby has no rights? Just condemned to death without a trial or cause?

A fetus is not a baby.

 

[Texas Lynn]

I sure am thankful that not all feel as you do, otherwise my 22 year old son would be dead. His birth mom chose to allow him to live amid difficult circumstances. It was hard for her; but my son (by adoption) is a wonderful guy and a blessing to so many. And her conscience is clear.

People want to personalize things but there's no guarantee freedom of choice pushes a person toward one decision or another. Nobody is advocating abortion be mandatory.

 

[DarkCougar555]

I strongly agreed that abortion just kills living children as if they are so much unworthy. To me, abortion is actually killing future descendants no matter how many people in descendants. I think it's pretty sad... :c(

Here's some interesting story:

Rebecca Kiessling's story (short form):

I was adopted nearly from birth. At 18, I learned that I was conceived out of a brutal rape at knife-point by a serial rapist. Like most people, I'd never considered that abortion applied to my life, but once I received this information, all of a sudden I realized that, not only does it apply to my life, but it has to do with my very existence. It was as if I could hear the echoes of all those people who, with the most sympathetic of tones, would say, “Well, except in cases of rape. . . ," or who would rather fervently exclaim in disgust: “Especially is cases of rape!!!” All these people are out there who don’t even know me, but are standing in judgment of my life, so quick to dismiss it just because of how I was conceived. I felt like I was now going to have to justify my own existence, that I would have to prove myself to the world that I shouldn’t have been aborted and that I was worthy of living. I also remember feeling like garbage because of people who would say that my life was like garbage -- that I was disposable. Read more, here...

 

[drstevej]

A fetus is not a baby.

Why are pregnant moms given a baby shower?

 

[Ave Maria]

Why are pregnant moms given a baby shower?

A baby shower is purely a cultural thing and is an invention of the culture that has it. Just because someone has a baby shower doesn't mean that the fetus inside of them is a baby. It simply means that the fetus inside of them is likely a wanted one and that other people are congratulating this person on their pregnancy. You can't say that just because some culture has a baby shower that it means that the fetus inside of them is a baby.