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Abortion, Freedom of Religion, the State, and Voting

Stephen3141

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I wish to again raise the question of what the relationship of the Church
should be, in regard to The State.


--- I would assert that the Protestant Evangelicals have ignored wrestling with this
VERY DIFFICULT question all through the "electronic screen" generations. And, this
lack of wrestling with American cultural issues, has led to the toleration of all sorts
of semi-Christian congregations, which are not willing to commit to clear doctrinal
descriptions of what orthodox Christianity is.

--- I would assert that North American Catholic Christians, mostly fell into
the category of "cultural Christians". All types of cultural Christians tend to
live a secular life during the week, then turn to the Church and sacraments
on the weekend, to sanitize their lives.

--- I would assert that Protestant Fundamentalists gave up on using the mind
rigorously, in the 1700's (the European Enlightenment), and have from that time
fallen into a fervant anti-intellectualism, that cannot deal with the modern
emergence of scientific disciplines, or the historic professional linguistic
study of the Bible. And, now Fundamentalists are calling themselves "Evangelical",
although Fundamentalists are still imposing their anti-intellectualism on the Bible,
and on the historic evidence of orthodox Christian doctrine.

--- The Orthodox have often taken a position of separation from the "world",
or the attempt to live in a separate Christian culture and lifestyle. Although
these positions toward secular "state" culture may preserve Christian doctrine
and lifestyle, they may not be able to communicate meaningfully with the
dominant atheistic and agnostic lifestyles of most Americans.

AS WITH ALL MORAL-ETHICAL (ME) SYSTEMS, it is not JUST the
ME commands that an ME system holds, but the PRIORITY of these
ME commands that must be worked out. And it is this PRIORITY of
ME commands, that American Christians just cannot seem to get right.
(This is my opinion.)
---------- ----------

I have openly asserted that Biden is not a Catholic Christian,
as he has come out for the "right" of any woman to have abortion on demand.
This has never been compatible with historic Christian doctrine or lifestyle.
Also, I have asserted that Trump is NOT a Protestant Christian, both because
of his profligate lifestyle (including his apathy toward keeping the law), and
his persistent and continual speaking of lies, and undemonstrated conspiracy
theories. (In Christianity, accurately representing our shared reality is an ME
ought, and bearing false witness about our shared reality is called lying, and
is a sin that, if continued, will exclude one from the heavenly kingdom.) Trump
does not represent ANY sort of Christianity.

Now that Kamala Harris represents one political party, she is an example of
a secular American. But, one who values the fair rule of law in America.

I am not trying to take on the role of judge of the living and the dead. But
every Christian MUST make the evaluation that Jesus noted in the Gospels:
"a good tree brings forth good fruit: an evil tree brings forth evil fruit." And
the choice of every person is "Make the tree good, or make it evil". It is not
a sin, for Christians to simply observe that our politicians have a LOT of bad
fruit in their lives, therefore, their tree is evil. This is not being wrongly "judgmental".
---------- ----------

Although some American Christian groups have latched onto the topic of
abortion, as the PRIORITY for Christians to eliminate in America, I would
repeat a few very unpopular considerations.

1. Abortion and infanticide were very common in the Roman Empire, when the
Apostle Paul was "sent as an Apostle to the Gentiles". Yet, Paul's priority in
ME teaching was not focused on abolishing abortion and infanticide in the
Roman Empire, but spreading the good news of how we can be redeemed from
the slavery of sin, by God.

2 Paul is very clear in his letter to the Corinthians, that Christian congregations
have an ME duty to eradicate serious and continuing sin, IN THEIR CONGREGATIONS.
However, Paul has a double standard toward pagans outside of Christian congregations.
Paul is not out to establish some sort of "Christian nationalism", to force pagans to
abide by Judea-Christian morals-ethics. (This is the meaning that the judgment of
God, comes FIRST to his people".)

The consideration by Christians in the first century, was NOT to eradicate
... abortion
... infanticide
... slavery
... racism
... the idolatry of materialism
.... injustice
... the abuse of the helpless and those without personal resources
....

Paul commands the eradication of these abuses IN THE CHRISTIAN
CONGREGATIONS, but it is not Paul's first priority to bring about a
ME transformation in the pagan Roman Empire.
---------- ----------

This article brings up the question of whether or not (Catholic) Christians should be
voting according to a single-issue concern (abortion on demand).

This American presidential election brings up other very important issues. We
should consider these, as being on the level of the single-issue of the legality
of abortion on demand...

1 If we vote in a President who suppresses the fair rule of law in America, THEN
we undercut that fair rule of law, and undercut the Constitutional rights that all
American citizens have. These include, "freedom of religion". Is it proper to vote
for a presidential candidate who holds that he is above the law, and threatens
to jail all who engage in behavior that he does not like?

2 Now that the question of the legality of abortion has been given to the
individual states, this question is more in the hands of local state Christians,
more than the question ever could have been affected by the average
Roman citizen in the first century. The average Roman citizen in Paul's
time, had almost no effect on the laws that were published, in the Roman
Empire.

3 Is it more important to protect the fair rule of law in America, than to
vote for some candidate who thinks that the Constitution and the fair rule
of law in America should be swept away, and replaced by his personal
preferences?

4 The groups that support "Christian nationalism" are NOT particularly
historical, orthodox Christian groups. High church theologies and views of
the sacraments, are REJECTED by these Fundamentalist groups! "Christian
nationalism" does not mean that orthodox Christian doctrine would be tolerated.
Many of these Fundamentalist groups do not recognize historical, orthodox
Christianity, as "Christian". They consider many forms of orthodox Christianity,
to be idolatry. They may make all abortion illegal, but they probably will
pass laws that would make many aspects of orthodox Christian dosctrine
and practice, illegal. Note that the European Enlightenment was filled with
states that enacted "Christian nationalism". The PROBLEM was, that
different groups of Christians had different and exclusive ideas of what
"Christian" meant. And, these "Christian" states had no problem with waging
viscious wars against other states, who also thought of themselves as
"Christian states".

"Freedom of religion" in the American foundational documents, was written in
by the Christian founders of America, in order to STOP Christian nationalism
(as seen in the European Enlightenment), NOT to promote it.

5 Note that the forbidding of abortion on demand, is not the same as
being Christian. In historical atheistic governments, it has been very
popular to exhort women to "make babies for the state". The Third Reich
exhorted women to have babies to build up the superior Aryan race.
There is nothing uniquely Christian about making abortion illegal,
when it is cut free of orthodox Christian doctrine.
---------- ----------

The pope is correct to warn American voters to carefully consider whom
to vote for, come November.

Neither political candidate can rightly claim to represent Christians.

But, we do have a clear choice between a man who has lived a profligate life,
has racked up 34 felony convictions, and who would on a whim set aside the
fair rule of law in America for the sake of lies and conspiracy theories.
Christians in America would LOSE MUCH MORE voting for Trump, than
voting for the Harris ticket.

Voting for Trump would practically, lose us our fair rule of law, AND
freedom of religion.

American Christians still can vote for making abortion on demand illegal,
in state elections.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I wish to again raise the question of what the relationship of the Church
should be, in regard to The State.


--- I would assert that the Protestant Evangelicals have ignored wrestling with this
VERY DIFFICULT question all through the "electronic screen" generations. And, this
lack of wrestling with American cultural issues, has led to the toleration of all sorts
of semi-Christian congregations, which are not willing to commit to clear doctrinal
descriptions of what orthodox Christianity is.

--- I would assert that North American Catholic Christians, mostly fell into
the category of "cultural Christians". All types of cultural Christians tend to
live a secular life during the week, then turn to the Church and sacraments
on the weekend, to sanitize their lives.

--- I would assert that Protestant Fundamentalists gave up on using the mind
rigorously, in the 1700's (the European Enlightenment), and have from that time
fallen into a fervant anti-intellectualism, that cannot deal with the modern
emergence of scientific disciplines, or the historic professional linguistic
study of the Bible. And, now Fundamentalists are calling themselves "Evangelical",
although Fundamentalists are still imposing their anti-intellectualism on the Bible,
and on the historic evidence of orthodox Christian doctrine.

--- The Orthodox have often taken a position of separation from the "world",
or the attempt to live in a separate Christian culture and lifestyle. Although
these positions toward secular "state" culture may preserve Christian doctrine
and lifestyle, they may not be able to communicate meaningfully with the
dominant atheistic and agnostic lifestyles of most Americans.

AS WITH ALL MORAL-ETHICAL (ME) SYSTEMS, it is not JUST the
ME commands that an ME system holds, but the PRIORITY of these
ME commands that must be worked out. And it is this PRIORITY of
ME commands, that American Christians just cannot seem to get right.
(This is my opinion.)
---------- ----------

I have openly asserted that Biden is not a Catholic Christian,
as he has come out for the "right" of any woman to have abortion on demand.
This has never been compatible with historic Christian doctrine or lifestyle.
Also, I have asserted that Trump is NOT a Protestant Christian, both because
of his profligate lifestyle (including his apathy toward keeping the law), and
his persistent and continual speaking of lies, and undemonstrated conspiracy
theories. (In Christianity, accurately representing our shared reality is an ME
ought, and bearing false witness about our shared reality is called lying, and
is a sin that, if continued, will exclude one from the heavenly kingdom.) Trump
does not represent ANY sort of Christianity.

Now that Kamala Harris represents one political party, she is an example of
a secular American. But, one who values the fair rule of law in America.

I am not trying to take on the role of judge of the living and the dead. But
every Christian MUST make the evaluation that Jesus noted in the Gospels:
"a good tree brings forth good fruit: an evil tree brings forth evil fruit." And
the choice of every person is "Make the tree good, or make it evil". It is not
a sin, for Christians to simply observe that our politicians have a LOT of bad
fruit in their lives, therefore, their tree is evil. This is not being wrongly "judgmental".
---------- ----------

Although some American Christian groups have latched onto the topic of
abortion, as the PRIORITY for Christians to eliminate in America, I would
repeat a few very unpopular considerations.

1. Abortion and infanticide were very common in the Roman Empire, when the
Apostle Paul was "sent as an Apostle to the Gentiles". Yet, Paul's priority in
ME teaching was not focused on abolishing abortion and infanticide in the
Roman Empire, but spreading the good news of how we can be redeemed from
the slavery of sin, by God.

2 Paul is very clear in his letter to the Corinthians, that Christian congregations
have an ME duty to eradicate serious and continuing sin, IN THEIR CONGREGATIONS.
However, Paul has a double standard toward pagans outside of Christian congregations.
Paul is not out to establish some sort of "Christian nationalism", to force pagans to
abide by Judea-Christian morals-ethics. (This is the meaning that the judgment of
God, comes FIRST to his people".)

The consideration by Christians in the first century, was NOT to eradicate
... abortion
... infanticide
... slavery
... racism
... the idolatry of materialism
.... injustice
... the abuse of the helpless and those without personal resources
....

Paul commands the eradication of these abuses IN THE CHRISTIAN
CONGREGATIONS, but it is not Paul's first priority to bring about a
ME transformation in the pagan Roman Empire.
---------- ----------

This article brings up the question of whether or not (Catholic) Christians should be
voting according to a single-issue concern (abortion on demand).

This American presidential election brings up other very important issues. We
should consider these, as being on the level of the single-issue of the legality
of abortion on demand...

1 If we vote in a President who suppresses the fair rule of law in America, THEN
we undercut that fair rule of law, and undercut the Constitutional rights that all
American citizens have. These include, "freedom of religion". Is it proper to vote
for a presidential candidate who holds that he is above the law, and threatens
to jail all who engage in behavior that he does not like?

2 Now that the question of the legality of abortion has been given to the
individual states, this question is more in the hands of local state Christians,
more than the question ever could have been affected by the average
Roman citizen in the first century. The average Roman citizen in Paul's
time, had almost no effect on the laws that were published, in the Roman
Empire.

3 Is it more important to protect the fair rule of law in America, than to
vote for some candidate who thinks that the Constitution and the fair rule
of law in America should be swept away, and replaced by his personal
preferences?

4 The groups that support "Christian nationalism" are NOT particularly
historical, orthodox Christian groups. High church theologies and views of
the sacraments, are REJECTED by these Fundamentalist groups! "Christian
nationalism" does not mean that orthodox Christian doctrine would be tolerated.
Many of these Fundamentalist groups do not recognize historical, orthodox
Christianity, as "Christian". They consider many forms of orthodox Christianity,
to be idolatry. They may make all abortion illegal, but they probably will
pass laws that would make many aspects of orthodox Christian dosctrine
and practice, illegal. Note that the European Enlightenment was filled with
states that enacted "Christian nationalism". The PROBLEM was, that
different groups of Christians had different and exclusive ideas of what
"Christian" meant. And, these "Christian" states had no problem with waging
viscious wars against other states, who also thought of themselves as
"Christian states".

"Freedom of religion" in the American foundational documents, was written in
by the Christian founders of America, in order to STOP Christian nationalism
(as seen in the European Enlightenment), NOT to promote it.

5 Note that the forbidding of abortion on demand, is not the same as
being Christian. In historical atheistic governments, it has been very
popular to exhort women to "make babies for the state". The Third Reich
exhorted women to have babies to build up the superior Aryan race.
There is nothing uniquely Christian about making abortion illegal,
when it is cut free of orthodox Christian doctrine.
---------- ----------

The pope is correct to warn American voters to carefully consider whom
to vote for, come November.

Neither political candidate can rightly claim to represent Christians.

But, we do have a clear choice between a man who has lived a profligate life,
has racked up 34 felony convictions, and who would on a whim set aside the
fair rule of law in America for the sake of lies and conspiracy theories.
Christians in America would LOSE MUCH MORE voting for Trump, than
voting for the Harris ticket.

Voting for Trump would practically, lose us our fair rule of law, AND
freedom of religion.

American Christians still can vote for making abortion on demand illegal,
in state elections.
The problem you have in justifying voting for Harris is that you plan to vote for a bad candidate to stop a bad candidate. So you too are voting for a bad candidate.

You bring up pope Francis. Is he asking you to consider the lesser of TWO evils, or the lesser of ALL of the evils of all of those running? Does he want you to vote for Harris? Not according to what he said. Does he want you to vote for Trump? Not according to what he said. Consider voting for someone like Sonski, who is not actually evil, instead of one of two evil candidates. Pope Francis didn't say that, but I did. As it is you are going to vote for an evil candidate. Just to stop another evil candidate. When you have a non-evil alternative.

It's your choice. But by voting as you plan you are compromising your own morals. You are worth more than that. You are buying in to some nasty positions to ostensibly oppose some other nasty positions. In the end you will fully own the nasty positions you are buying in to now.
 
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FireDragon76

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Kamala Harris is actually a Baptist, though she doesn't talk about her religious beliefs a great deal publically. Her politics is more or less in keeping with historic Black churches.
 
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