Abortion - "As early as possible, as late as necessary"

[shazabella]

Does anyone else ever notice that the real hard line anti-choicers, those who would deny the woman the right to choose what happens to her body, always seem to have one thing in common...they're men?

yeah exactly !!!! but what do I know I'm just an immature 18 yr old.

Age may be meant to dictate maturity but sometimes exceptions can be made like very smart teenagers and very narrow minded older people

Whilst the issue of abortion in particular for teens should be avoided as in abstaining from pre marital sex it is inevitably an issue due to the high rates of date rape and incest. We as christians can sit here and say no to it but ultimately it will happen and what would u prefer in the case of a miscarriage early in the pregnancy or having to give birth to a stillborn baby ?

Because that is what we are arguing except it is human intervention that is causing such scandal. I am not for abortion and as far as I'm concerned abortion should be the last resort due to medical reasons but it should be done early enough into the pregnancy as possible if at all.

- Shaz

 

[ScarletRubies]

But see if you can measure brainwaves on that little 'person.' If you can, then I'll see an abortion of it as murder, and will oppose it. Otherwise, it's a lump of cells shaped like a baby that is not alive yet.

Hi Minion - I don't really want to buy in on the debate, but had to ask you if not being able to register brain activity might not be the result of lack of technical ability, medically speaking, rather than lack of life? After all, we are able to see a lot more about life in utero today that we could 20 years ago.

As far as the OP goes...

As a woman with a child, and having lost 2 very wanted children through "spontaneous abortion", it is my opinion that people will choose to believe their 'fetus' is human as it suits them (parents esp.). If you want/plan/expect a pregnancy, your opinion of that pregnancy is likely very different to the person/couple who do not want/did not plan/did not expect it.

I believe that in God's eyes, all children are precious and valuable; this includes pregnant women. I don't think that an adult woman's life is more valuable than an unborn child, and I personally disagree with abortion. I think it is akin to infanticide. I don't mean to be inflammatory, but I hope that this post might be of value.

All our sin is covered by the blood of Christ if we seek His forgiveness. The difficulty with abortion and other sexual sin is not that it is "worse" than theft, gossiping, idolatry etc but that it has a lasting effect on those who sinned. As a community, especially those who are Christians, we have a responsibility to protect, care and love one another. How dare any one here judge a woman or couple for choosing abortion if they have done nothing to change the laws, nothing to change the media, nothing to change their own judgemental nature.

If we expect women to choose the difficult path of raising children alone, or allowing other families to raise their children, then we have a responsibility to house these women and children, to clothe, feed and educate them. We also have a responsibilty to protect women from sexual abuse and sexual immorality - training & teaching our daughters and young women that children happen when we have sex, married or not, "protected" or not. We must not remain in our ivory tower "tutting" women who behave exactly as the predominant culture tells them to.

Wow. I thought I didn't want to buy in on this discussion.

I mean no offense, nor do I judge you for your opinion. I don't even know you. God knows you, though, and if He's talking to you about this, I hope you will heed His voice and seek His will.

In Christ,
Ruby

 

[Westvleteren]

If we expect women to choose the difficult path of raising children alone, or allowing other families to raise their children, then we have a responsibility to house these women and children, to clothe, feed and educate them. We also have a responsibilty to protect women from sexual abuse and sexual immorality - training & teaching our daughters and young women that children happen when we have sex, married or not, "protected" or not. We must not remain in our ivory tower "tutting" women who behave exactly as the predominant culture tells them to.

My thanks to you, friend. I have long sought a pro-life stance that was not self-contradictory on its face, and you have finally shown me one.

If someone believes that abortion is the taking of a life, I might argue that point, but I respect it. The question is still uncertain enough that I cannot fault someone for basing their abortion stance on it. However, pro-life supporters who dismiss the plight of the woman in trouble, and the plight of the child after it is born, confound me with their hypocrisy.

You have renewed my faith that people might actually be thinking about what they believe.

 

[xMinionX]

Hi Minion - I don't really want to buy in on the debate, but had to ask you if not being able to register brain activity might not be the result of lack of technical ability, medically speaking, rather than lack of life? After all, we are able to see a lot more about life in utero today that we could 20 years ago.

Maybe. Maybe. You're right, we can see a lot more in utero today. Maybe it's time to take another look? I suspect someone already has.

[edit] Quick google search turned this up....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2241447.stm

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Ah, now "uneducated". You're big on the insults for people who disagree with you, aren't you?

They are not insults. They are accurately descriptive terms.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Really? Have a look back over this thread and tell me how many women are coming out with hard line anti-choice views.

Ah yes, this board is representative of the population as a whole. Good theory.

 

[rebel_conservative]

Once again, a source for this please?

Despite the fact that feminists cry and try to make people feel guilty about opposing a "woman's right" to abortion, men always support abortion more than women – no matter who takes the poll or how the questions are asked. Curiously, single men aged 18-34 are the cohort most dearly devoted to a woman's "right to choose." http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42574

Female respondents felt more strongly about the issue, as 72% of female respondents supported a ban on second-trimester abortions, compared with 58% of men.
http://report.kff.org/archive/repro/2000/06/kr000619.1.htm

 

[Electric Sceptic]

They are not insults. They are accurately descriptive terms.

They are insults. It seems they are all you have to offer when someone disagrees with you.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

Despite the fact that feminists cry and try to make people feel guilty about opposing a "woman's right" to abortion, men always support abortion more than women – no matter who takes the poll or how the questions are asked. Curiously, single men aged 18-34 are the cohort most dearly devoted to a woman's "right to choose." http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42574

Female respondents felt more strongly about the issue, as 72% of female respondents supported a ban on second-trimester abortions, compared with 58% of men.
http://report.kff.org/archive/repro/2000/06/kr000619.1.htm

Umm...an Ann Coulter (nice, unbiased source) article in which she doesn't mention a source for the figure, and one actual survey which doesn't address the issue beyond the fact that in it more female respondents supported a ban on second-trimester abortoins than men? That's it?

 

[rebel_conservative]

Umm...an Ann Coulter (nice, unbiased source) article in which she doesn't mention a source for the figure

you want a source from a nice, unbiased source like Planned Parenthood?
and she does mention the source, the LA Times poll.

one actual survey which doesn't address the issue beyond the fact that in it more female respondents supported a ban on second-trimester abortoins than men? That's it?

hahaha, now you are just shifting the goalposts. you can whinge and moan that it "doesn't address the issue" all you want. you said it is men who want to limit abortions and women fighting for their rights, that is blatantly not true.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

you want a source from a nice, unbiased source like Planned Parenthood?
and she does mention the source, the LA Times poll.



hahaha, now you are just shifting the goalposts. you can whinge and moan that it "doesn't address the issue" all you want. you said it is men who want to limit abortions and women fighting for their rights, that is blatantly not true.

Umm....no, I didn't. Nice try, though.

 

[rebel_conservative]

Does anyone else ever notice that the real hard line anti-choicers, those who would deny the woman the right to choose what happens to her body, always seem to have one thing in common...they're men?

I provided evidence to the contrary - 58% of men want to ban late-term abortion, compared to 72% of women

 

[Belle0985]

Are you saying that an inanimate clump of cells is more important than a human life because it superficially resembles a baby?

IT HAS A HEARTBEAT, therefore it's alive. *rolls eyes*

 

[rebel_conservative]

Its not a baby, its a fetus. The fact that it looks like a baby is neither here nor there.

whatever you need to tell yourself...

 

[Belle0985]

The moment a person is conceived until the day they lie down at the end of their life, they are prescious and worth protecting. To destroy them at any stage in between is murder.

Murder is the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.

Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without express or implied malice.

Involuntary manslaughter is manslaughter resulting from the failure to perform a legal duty expressly required to safeguard human life, from the commission of an unlawful act not constituting a felony, or from the commission of a lawful act in a negligent or improper manner.

Voluntary manslaughter is manslaughter resulting from an intentional act done without malice or premeditation and while in the heat of passion or on sudden provocation


From these definitions (by m-w.com), abortion would not be any of the three because of ONLY the reason that it is not illegal. Also I'm sure many women do not have abortions full of anger and malice and such either. HOWEVER...

Criminal homicide is homicide committed by a person with a criminal state of mind (as intentionally, with premeditation, knowingly, recklessly, or with criminal negligence)

Deliberate homicide is homicide caused purposely and knowingly

From this I believe abortion is deliberate and criminal homicide.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

Murder is the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.

Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without express or implied malice.

Involuntary manslaughter is manslaughter resulting from the failure to perform a legal duty expressly required to safeguard human life, from the commission of an unlawful act not constituting a felony, or from the commission of a lawful act in a negligent or improper manner.

Voluntary manslaughter is manslaughter resulting from an intentional act done without malice or premeditation and while in the heat of passion or on sudden provocation


From these definitions (by m-w.com), abortion would not be any of the three because of ONLY the reason that it is not illegal. Also I'm sure many women do not have abortions full of anger and malice and such either. HOWEVER...

Criminal homicide is homicide committed by a person with a criminal state of mind (as intentionally, with premeditation, knowingly, recklessly, or with criminal negligence)

Deliberate homicide is homicide caused purposely and knowingly

From this I believe abortion is deliberate and criminal homicide.

Then you believe falsely, since (a) abortion is not commited "with a criminal state of mind", since abortion is not a crime and (b) homicide is the killing of a person by another, and a fetus is not a person.

 

[rebel_conservative]

Then you believe falsely, since (a) abortion is not commited "with a criminal state of mind", since abortion is not a crime and (b) homicide is the killing of a person by another, and a fetus is not a person.

how do you define a person?

when does a "foetus" become a person?

 

[Lokisdottir]

IT HAS A HEARTBEAT, therefore it's alive. *rolls eyes*

Would you ban the killing of anything that has a heartbeat? If so, I sure hope you're a vegetarian...

 

[rebel_conservative]

Would you ban the killing of anything that has a heartbeat? If so, I sure hope you're a vegetarian...

I am, and against all animal experimentation.

(however, there is a distinction - both moral and legal - to be made between humanity and animals)

what really puzzles and irritates me are those in favour of animals rights, but also pro-abortion.

 

[Mercyme_thats me]

As Christians...how can any of you think that it is okay to have an abortion? As soon as a baby is concieved it is a living organism. Having an abortion...any way you look at it...is murder. How can you kill an unborn child? You don't want kids...DONT HAVE SEX!!!! You all know having an abortion is a sin dont you?