abortion and evolution

[rmwilliamsll]

here is my idea.

I think that membership in fundamentalist churches has a litmus test of anti-abortion and anti-evolution, a litmus test being a quick and handy guide to who is inside and who is outside.

i'm not here to debate the issues. what i would like to do is ask people about their emotions about the issues. to ask people about how important psychological and for unity of the fundamentalist community these issues are.

the problem is that i can read definitions of fundamentalism, like the one given in this forum FAQ. but that doesn't tell me how people really identify brethren in say a casual conversation with a visitor after church.

so with this background what i am asking is:

how important to fellowship and trust as a fellow fundamentalist or Christian are the issues of abortion and evolution? Can a Christian genuinely support abortion or be an evolutionist? if someone you didn't know talked to you after church and you found out that they supported legal abortion or were an evolutionist would this be more important than the fact that they could subscribe to the list of things that make a fundamentalist in this forums FAQ? simply put, does either a pro-abortion or evolutionist stand trump the doctrines for membership in fundamentalist churches?

thanks.



i posted this in the fundamentalist community.
i'm interested in the responses from conservative reformed people as well. plus i can discuss the issues here *grin*.

so just substitute "conservative reformed" for "fundamentalist" in the question.

 

[AndOne]

The abortion issue is a bit of a no-brainer. I don't see how one could promote it or condone it and claim that they are bible-believing Christians. Personally I would not fellowship with such a person, unless they were perhaps a brand-spankin' new believer/convert that didn't know any better because they hadn't had time to dive into the word on the issue. Other than that - I'd say no exceptions there.

Evolution on the other hand is a bit more tricky. Personally I think its a farce - but I wouldn't preclude someone who believes in that nonsense from personal Christian fellowship. I have met people who believe in both the Genesis account of creation and evolution (crazy as it sounds). They simply say that Genesis leaves out the evolutionary aspect of creation. I don't think that they are honestly reading Genesis correctly - but it is something I wouldn't let hinder a friendship so long as the other party agreed not to discuss or debate it with me.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

The abortion issue is a bit of a no-brainer. I don't see how one could promote it or condone it and claim that they are bible-believing Christians. Personally I would not fellowship with such a person, unless they were perhaps a brand-spankin' new believer/convert that didn't know any better because they hadn't had time to dive into the word on the issue. Other than that - I'd say no exceptions there.

Evolution on the other hand is a bit more tricky. Personally I think its a farce - but I wouldn't preclude someone who believes in that nonsense from personal Christian fellowship. I have met people who believe in both the Genesis account of creation and evolution (crazy as it sounds). They simply say that Genesis leaves out the evolutionary aspect of creation. I don't think that they are honestly reading Genesis correctly - but it is something I wouldn't let hinder a friendship so long as the other party agreed not to discuss or debate it with me.

I think Behe's got it about right. The murder of unborn children (i.e. abortion) is and always has been anathema to the Christian Church from the very earliest days of the Church until now.

Abortion, like sexual sin, has always been condemned by Christ's Church. It is not surprising that the same "Christians who now excuse or promote the acceptance of sexual sins (e.g. fornication, homosexuality) are the same folks who approve and defend "reproductive (i.e. abortion) rights."

Behe's correct that someone can bring their "pre-conversion" pro-abort baggage with them into the Church, but I find it hard to imagine such anti-Christian ideas remaining for very long.

I agree with what Behe says on evolution and the Christian believer. It is an error to believe in evolution, but many honest Christians do and others struggle with the issue of creation and evolution.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[erin74]

While I don't agree with abortion, I do not think it is something to break fellowship over.

What does the bible say about who we should break fellowship with, and under what circumstances?

I would tend to be more concerned about issues that endanger the centrality of the cross, or continual deliberate sin, as opposed to ethical issues.

 

[edie19]

My 2cents worth - I believe that some Christians are so vehemently pro-life that, whether they intend to or not, they can do harm to those who've had an abortion. It's as if it is the ultimate "unforgivable" sin.
Not that I hold a whole lot of stock in the American Psychology Association (or whatever they're called) there is such a thing as post abortion stress syndrome. Women suffer the repurcussions for years - and often don't understand why because we're told through the media and even through the medical profession that it's a simple surgical procedure - nothing to worry about. Unfortunately these women (and men) don't always have a place to turn for forgiveness, a place where they're told that those feelings are normal, a place to find comfort and peace of mind. These are services (for lack of a better word) that churches should be providing. However, because we're so strident we can turn away those very people who need God's love and forgiveness the most and probably don't even realize that we're doing so.

My husband believes in evolution, his viewpoint is that evolution is the method God used to create life (I don't agree). My college student daughter makes jokes about some of the classes she's taken - calls them evolution 101. She does what she needs to to pass the course - but still strongly believes that God spoke the world into being. I'll be honest - it's something that doesn't come up in discussion for the most part. My church has had adult classes on creation (they were fascinating), I've read books (not just by Christians) on the failures of evolution. But by and large, I don't think about it.

edie

 

[calmcoolandelected]

here is my idea.

I think that membership in fundamentalist churches has a litmus test of anti-abortion and anti-evolution, a litmus test being a quick and handy guide to who is inside and who is outside.

i'm not here to debate the issues. what i would like to do is ask people about their emotions about the issues. to ask people about how important psychological and for unity of the fundamentalist community these issues are.

the problem is that i can read definitions of fundamentalism, like the one given in this forum FAQ. but that doesn't tell me how people really identify brethren in say a casual conversation with a visitor after church.

so with this background what i am asking is:

how important to fellowship and trust as a fellow fundamentalist or Christian are the issues of abortion and evolution? Can a Christian genuinely support abortion or be an evolutionist? if someone you didn't know talked to you after church and you found out that they supported legal abortion or were an evolutionist would this be more important than the fact that they could subscribe to the list of things that make a fundamentalist in this forums FAQ? simply put, does either a pro-abortion or evolutionist stand trump the doctrines for membership in fundamentalist churches?

thanks.



i posted this in the fundamentalist community.
i'm interested in the responses from conservative reformed people as well. plus i can discuss the issues here *grin*.

so just substitute "conservative reformed" for "fundamentalist" in the question.

Honestly, when I have met Christians that support abortion, etc. I kind of treat them as non-Christians. By that I mean I preach the Gospel to them!

Evilution is a bit different for me, though. I am a tad bit more lenient on that one, esp. since there are different Creation views.

I guess what I am saying is that IMHO, murdering unborn children is one of those essential issues and evilution isn't. Does that make sense?

CC&E

 

[erin74]

You should see how my discussion of embryonic stem cell research is going in the australian subforum. Our pollies are about to vote on human cloning. So I posted a site where you could get information, put your name on a petition, email your representatives.

There has been very little interest. This from the same group of people who a few weeks ago mustered up a stack of support for whales.....

so so frustrating!

 

[arunma]

An interesting question. I try not to judge other Christians. If someone claims to be a Christian, to believe in Christ crucified and resurrected, and that salvation is by grace through faith in him, then I generally accept that person as a Christian. Now as Christians, we all believe in an objective right and wrong, so obviously not all Christians can be right (since there are very many different points of view, as indicated by the multitude of denominations). Not all Christians will agree on all issues. And while there is an ultimate right and wrong, I still consider Christians of different viewpoint to be Christians so long as they accept the fundamental doctrines of the faith.

Regarding the abortion issue. I can certainly accept that person might believe in the "right" to abortion and still be a Christian. But let's not split hairs here: abortion is nothing short of murder. The fact that I can accept a pro-death individual as a Christian doesn't change the fact that abortion constitutes the destruction of God-ordained human life. Therefore, it is my hope that all Christians who believe in this form of murder would change their minds, or at least that no child would be aborted as a consequence of their beliefs. In my opinion, the fact that I view these people as Christians motivates me to convince them of the truth with even greater urgency. I want to be clear in saying that I do not consider pro-death to be a valid Christian viewpoint. But I wouldn't label a pro-abortion Christian as a false believer anymore than I would label an adulterous Christian as a false believer. Both types of people are sinners saved by grace, if indeed they have faith in Christ. And that faith is for God to judge.

Now as to evolution: I probably couldn't care less than I already do. I of course reject the idea of human evolution in favor of Biblical creation. But as others have said, it's not really an essential doctrine. It seems to me that Christians who believe in evolution are like people who believe in alien conspiracies. They're wrong, but they're not hurting anyone.

 

[cubanito]

I and jtdad responded to this post elsewhere as follows:

the question is vague. Not all Christians are fundamentalists, so is the person asking can one be a Christian and hold those views also (I'd say yes for sure) or a Fundamentalist and hold such views (I'd give a qualified yes).

JR

 

[cubanito]

Consider the following: as currently promoted, macroevolutionary theories are NON-DIRECTED purely natural attempts to explain everything, especially life. Such excludes the posibility of saying that God used evolution as a method to bring about His will.

Theistic evolution, more popularly referred to these days as "the Intelligent Design" movement, has been rejected by the majority of those in the scientific, educational, and judicial communities as an acceptable alternative to even be discussed. Such an attitude is wholly inconsistent with Scripture, and can only be held by a True Christian (indeed by any monotheist) through inconsistency to thought. In the words of Orwell, by "double-think", the ability to hold two mutually inconsistent and exclusive beliefs at one time.

On abortion, again there are all manner of gradiations. For example, the RC holds that abortion, even to save the life of the mother, is wrong (the only exception is that of a cancerous uterus or othe condition that dooms the fetus in any alternative). "Softer" prolife stances run the gamut from allowing abortion for the LIFE of the mother (not health, which brings in the concept of mental health as an excuse). And of course then you have increasing numbers of exceptions, (rape, incest, fetal malformation from severe and deadly to just suspicion of malformation), all the way down to the questions of parental notification, or approval (with or without judicial bypass) and finally abortion on demand, even at delivery, even for minors no matterthe gestational age.

What I'm saying is that these are questions with gradiations.

Most (everyone?) on this forum believes in the justification of abortion to save the life of the mother in a certain an immediate case. This is inconsistent with Christianity according to the RC conservatives.

If one wants a clear answer, one must start w a clear question. The initial question is too vague.

JR

 

[anewinhim]

Hi rmwilliamsll
I don’t know if being a fundamentalist is a litmus test for being anti abortion or anti evolution or not. I do however have my own opinions on those two issues if you want to hear them. I have been doing a little studying on evolution and in my opinion its more of a religion than a science. Most of the "proof" the scientists claim to have is shaky at best, and very misleading.
Their theory sounds good at first, but under close examination, I don’t really see how anyone could believe in evolution. Like the geological column they always refer to when dating fossils. Did you know that does not exist anywhere in real life? Someone just made it up and put it on paper. If it were real, it would be around 100 miles thick.
They date fossils they find, by using the rock layers contained in this geological column. They also date the rock layers, using the fossils they find in that layer. They date the fossils by the rocks, and they date rocks by the fossils. It don’t take long to see a problem with their methods of dating. It is called circular reasoning.
Also, they have never found one single fossil of a creature evolving. I would think they would have hundreds of them, and also, we would have examples of creatures evolving into totally new creatures, living today. There many other reason I don’t believe in evolution, its bad science.
As for abortion. I don’t judge others, that job belongs to God. For myself personally, I don’t agree with it. To me when one human life becomes expendable, a society is on a very slippery slope. When one life has lost its right to exist, then all life is in danger of the same. In another country, they have passed legislation not to prosecute doctors who end the life of newborn babies with certain birth defects.
Who decides who has the right to exist? What criteria do they use? Who will make these decisions? Where does it end? That’s what I mean by a slippery slope. No one should have the right to end the life of another, unborn or born. That’s just my thoughts.

 

[bradfordl]

Hey Cube,

Long time no see. As our resident calvarminian and MD, what is your position re: abortion and its various incarnations?

B

 

[bradfordl]

Hi rmwilliamsll
I don’t know if being a fundamentalist is a litmus test for being anti abortion or anti evolution or not. I do however have my own opinions on those two issues if you want to hear them. I have been doing a little studying on evolution and in my opinion its more of a religion than a science. Most of the "proof" the scientists claim to have is shaky at best, and very misleading.
Their theory sounds good at first, but under close examination, I don’t really see how anyone could believe in evolution. Like the geological column they always refer to when dating fossils. Did you know that does not exist anywhere in real life? Someone just made it up and put it on paper. If it were real, it would be around 100 miles thick.
They date fossils they find, by using the rock layers contained in this geological column. They also date the rock layers, using the fossils they find in that layer. They date the fossils by the rocks, and they date rocks by the fossils. It don’t take long to see a problem with their methods of dating. It is called circular reasoning.
Also, they have never found one single fossil of a creature evolving. I would think they would have hundreds of them, and also, we would have examples of creatures evolving into totally new creatures, living today. There many other reason I don’t believe in evolution, its bad science.
As for abortion. I don’t judge others, that job belongs to God. For myself personally, I don’t agree with it. To me when one human life becomes expendable, a society is on a very slippery slope. When one life has lost its right to exist, then all life is in danger of the same. In another country, they have passed legislation not to prosecute doctors who end the life of newborn babies with certain birth defects.
Who decides who has the right to exist? What criteria do they use? Who will make these decisions? Where does it end? That’s what I mean by a slippery slope. No one should have the right to end the life of another, unborn or born. That’s just my thoughts.

Amen Anew! My thoughts exactly.

Brad

 

[calmcoolandelected]

An interesting question. I try not to judge other Christians. If someone claims to be a Christian, to believe in Christ crucified and resurrected, and that salvation is by grace through faith in him, then I generally accept that person as a Christian. Now as Christians, we all believe in an objective right and wrong, so obviously not all Christians can be right (since there are very many different points of view, as indicated by the multitude of denominations). Not all Christians will agree on all issues. And while there is an ultimate right and wrong, I still consider Christians of different viewpoint to be Christians so long as they accept the fundamental doctrines of the faith.

Regarding the abortion issue. I can certainly accept that person might believe in the "right" to abortion and still be a Christian. But let's not split hairs here: abortion is nothing short of murder. The fact that I can accept a pro-death individual as a Christian doesn't change the fact that abortion constitutes the destruction of God-ordained human life. Therefore, it is my hope that all Christians who believe in this form of murder would change their minds, or at least that no child would be aborted as a consequence of their beliefs. In my opinion, the fact that I view these people as Christians motivates me to convince them of the truth with even greater urgency. I want to be clear in saying that I do not consider pro-death to be a valid Christian viewpoint. But I wouldn't label a pro-abortion Christian as a false believer anymore than I would label an adulterous Christian as a false believer. Both types of people are sinners saved by grace, if indeed they have faith in Christ. And that faith is for God to judge.

Now as to evolution: I probably couldn't care less than I already do. I of course reject the idea of human evolution in favor of Biblical creation. But as others have said, it's not really an essential doctrine. It seems to me that Christians who believe in evolution are like people who believe in alien conspiracies. They're wrong, but they're not hurting anyone.

Arunma,

Many times when I have been in conversations with other Christians about abortion, I have little information about their backgrounds. Usually it is people who claim Christ and that is all I know. So when I say I preach the Gospel to them, what I mean is that I am trying to appeal to them via God's Word. I guess I didn't say that very clearly.

I have to admit here that when a Christian is ambivilant towards abortion that I *do* think about their spiritual maturity. Not that *I* am so spiritually mature but I believe the Bible is clear on this. I believe that God's Word is the instrument via the work of the Holy Spirit that He uses to change our hearts whether it be for salvific reasons or sanctification.

In my experience, I try to ask thought-provoking questions so that the person might be provoked to study, think and pray. I have also found that a great deal of people who claim Christ are Biblically illiterate -- in and out of the church. But that is another problem for another discussion topic!

CC&E

 

[anewinhim]

bradford

Sometimes I look back at myself and I wonder how I ever believed in evolution and half of the accepted scientific theorys. The way they present it, as fact, it sounds really good. When you start listening to the stuff they dont tell you, and really think about it, the real facts about evolution and the theory of our orgin, it all just falls apart.

RC had me cracking up laughing when his show aired (I think it was called the aseity of God). He was talking about the big bang theory and how our universe just exploded out of "nothing." He was saying something along the lines of, now days, scientist think it takes a really long time for "nothing" to blow up into something like our universe.

Of course being the jokester that I am, I had a field day with the idea of explosive "nothing." All day I was cracking jokes to my husband about "the nothing" that might one day blow up! RC can be really funny sometimes. I like that guy.

 

[cubanito]

Yup, RC can be a hoot.

I laugh even harder when reading some of the popular physics books like "the Elegant Universe" when on one chapter they plainly state that no one can yet put all physics in to coherent theory, and on the next chapter, how the only thing they can't quite explain about the start of the universe is the first billionth of a second (or was that a trillionth?). Even funnier is when they start philosophizing that if there even if there were God, It could not be omniscient because it would violate this or that physical law. The concept of a transcendant Being who created these laws and exempts Himself from whatever He pleases seems not to occur to them.

How brilliant do you have to be before coming back to stupid?

JR

 

[arunma]

Yup, RC can be a hoot.

I laugh even harder when reading some of the popular physics books like "the Elegant Universe" when on one chapter they plainly state that no one can yet put all physics in to coherent theory, and on the next chapter, how the only thing they can't quite explain about the start of the universe is the first billionth of a second (or was that a trillionth?). Even funnier is when they start philosophizing that if there even if there were God, It could not be omniscient because it would violate this or that physical law. The concept of a transcendant Being who created these laws and exempts Himself from whatever He pleases seems not to occur to them.

How brilliant do you have to be before coming back to stupid?

JR

Does it really say that? Too bad I never got around to reading The Elegant Universe. I guess I've been too busy reading real physics textbooks.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Does it really say that? Too bad I never got around to reading The Elegant Universe. I guess I've been too busy reading real physics textbooks.

i found both:
The Elegant Universe: Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory
and
The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality
worthwhile and interesting books. but then again, i am not a physicist and can't read real physics textbooks, not having either the background or the math ability. so i will have to be content with this popularized level.

i've read good books by Christian physicists like:
Modern Physics and Ancient Faith
so i know that there exist physicists who do know and talk about God. Although i'm sure that they know the difference between religion and physics and talk accordingly.

 

[cubanito]

Does it really say that? Too bad I never got around to reading The Elegant Universe. I guess I've been too busy reading real physics textbooks.

Yeah,and I have read the same in 2 others.

I only had one year of physics, 30 years ago. I am even more ignorant in geology, astronomy, paleontology and a number of other matters. I've tried to make up by reading the more "popularized" versions, especially in physics. Being the sole income generator for this household of 6 does put some limits on things.

Some time in the future I'll find some of these quotations to post.

Enjoy the college years, and put them to good use in aquiring a broad knowledge base as I did. It has been of great satisfaction to be at least conversant in so many disciplines (for centered around the life sciences). Even some things, like my ability to program in fortran 4, that wind up int the useless pile, still give me a "flavor" of what machine language is actually like that is still in an odd way informative.

words from an ol geezer...

JR

 

[bradfordl]

Of course being the jokester that I am, I had a field day with the idea of explosive "nothing." All day I was cracking jokes to my husband about "the nothing" that might one day blow up! RC can be really funny sometimes. I like that guy.

This is one of those funny coincidents. This evening before logging on and reading that, my 7 year-old daughter said to me while sitting on the couch that I was made of nothing. I asked what she meant and she said, "Well, God made everything out of nothing, so you're made out of nothing.". Out of mouths of babes....