abortion and euthanasia - whose choice?

[lawtonfogle]

Yet sex is a contract that does just that.

A contract that you must consent to with the other person(s). This is why sex with a child is wrong, this is why rape is wrong. In both cases, they are not consenting to the contract with you.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Sex is not a contract, and even if it were, it would be between the participants, not between the mother and the not-yet-in-existence fetus. Also, such contracts can be broken. I could promise to donate a kidney, even sign off that I am going to do it. But I am free to change my mind at the last second.

Sex isn't any sort of a contract, though. Otherwise, women would get pregnant every time they had sex, and that thankfully isn't the case. All sex is, for most people, is a gamble. Since most women don't track their fertility, it's a matter of luck in terms of whether or not they end up pregnant after having sex. Even when they use protection, luck is still involved, since protection can sometimes fail. So why should women be punished for something that's out of their control, such as whether or not they end up pregnant after having sex?

I disagree. Sex is a contract (or more so, there is a contract which makes it legal to use another persons body), to which one must consent. It is specifically a contract any persons in it may revoke at any point. The contract is implied except in really rare cases.

 

[HannahBanana]

I disagree. Sex is a contract (or more so, there is a contract which makes it legal to use another persons body), to which one must consent. It is specifically a contract any persons in it may revoke at any point. The contract is implied except in really rare cases.

Not everyone sees it as a contract, though. So what makes your opinion more correct than the opinion of those who don't see it as a contract?

 

[lawtonfogle]

Not everyone sees it as a contract, though. So what makes your opinion more correct than the opinion of those who don't see it as a contract?

Because law treats it as a contract. You don't consent to it, it is rape. You consent to it, then you can't charge the person with anything.

Contract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In law, a contract is a binding legal agreement that is enforceable in a court of law.[1] That is to say, a contract is an exchange of promises for the breach of which the law will provide a remedy.

Considering that consent to sex is a legal agreement (as seen by the ability of law to withhold it from persons), and it is enforceable in law (if there is consent to sex, then there is no ability to charge for rape).

If one wanted to, one could say there is a contract between all persons to not have sex with each other (breaking this contract is punished via the crime of rape), and that we may willingly, in pairs (or great numbers), suppress the contract momentarily, but only in some cases.

 

[HannahBanana]

Because law treats it as a contract. You don't consent to it, it is rape. You consent to it, then you can't charge the person with anything.

Contract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Considering that consent to sex is a legal agreement (as seen by the ability of law to withhold it from persons), and it is enforceable in law (if there is consent to sex, then there is no ability to charge for rape).

If one wanted to, one could say there is a contract between all persons to not have sex with each other (breaking this contract is punished via the crime of rape), and that we may willingly, in pairs (or great numbers), suppress the contract momentarily, but only in some cases.

I see what you're saying, and I understand now how sex could be viewed as a sort of "legal contract" in that sense. I just don't see what that has to do with the morality of abortion. Just because sex is seen as a sort of contract doesn't mean anything in terms of whether abortion is right or wrong.

 

[Mling]

I see what you're saying, and I understand now how sex could be viewed as a sort of "legal contract" in that sense. I just don't see what that has to do with the morality of abortion. Just because sex is seen as a sort of contract doesn't mean anything in terms of whether abortion is right or wrong.

Yeah, the conversation took a subtle turn from "contract with the potential resulting fetus, to support him/her" to "revocable contract with the other person, to consent to the desired activities." I'm all for the second one. The first ...well...it seems odd to have a 'contract' with a potential person who does not yet exist.

 

[Skaloop]

I disagree. Sex is a contract (or more so, there is a contract which makes it legal to use another persons body), to which one must consent. It is specifically a contract any persons in it may revoke at any point. The contract is implied except in really rare cases.

OK, I can go with the sex act itself being an implied contract of consent between the participants. But there's no sort of contract with any resulting fetus.

 

[david_x]

Since when can fetuses sign a contract?


There is no such thing as a figurative contract, so yes, I did think it was literal.

It's just a figure of speech...

 

[HannahBanana]

It's just a figure of speech...

Okay, so it's a figurative contract. (And yes, I do admit that I was wrong in saying that figurative contracts can't exist.) What if a woman isn't willing to enter into this contract? Just because she has sex doesn't mean that she's consenting to pregnancy, after all, since not all women who have sex are prepared for pregnancy.

 

[david_x]

Okay, so it's a figurative contract. (And yes, I do admit that I was wrong in saying that figurative contracts can't exist.) What if a woman isn't willing to enter into this contract? Just because she has sex doesn't mean that she's consenting to pregnancy, after all, since not all women who have sex are prepared for pregnancy.

It is not a figurative contract, there is no contract. I was using a figure of speech...

And we're all the way back to square one, in that it... well I guess on this point we disagree.

 

[lawtonfogle]

I see what you're saying, and I understand now how sex could be viewed as a sort of "legal contract" in that sense. I just don't see what that has to do with the morality of abortion. Just because sex is seen as a sort of contract doesn't mean anything in terms of whether abortion is right or wrong.

The contract of having sex is, in my view, totally different than the possible (and I am not sure if it exist, and I favor the view of it does not) contract between the mother and any fetus she has.

 

[HannahBanana]

It is not a figurative contract, there is no contract. I was using a figure of speech...

And we're all the way back to square one, in that it... well I guess on this point we disagree.

Saying that it's a figurative contract is the exact same thing as saying that you're using a figure of speech. Do you really not know what the word "figurative" means?

 

[HannahBanana]

The contract of having sex is, in my view, totally different than the possible (and I am not sure if it exist, and I favor the view of it does not) contract between the mother and any fetus she has.

Then why did you bring up that contract at all, when it has nothing to do with the topic of this debate, which is abortion?

 

[LittleNipper]

I could never understand why a person who is dying would want to take their own life. All one needs to do is stop taking any medication and let nature run its course. Certainly that is more natural than taking matters into one's own hands.

 

[HannahBanana]

I could never understand why a person who is dying would want to take their own life. All one needs to do is stop taking any medication and let nature run its course. Certainly that is more natural than taking matters into one's own hands.

So you think that it's better for a person to have to endure weeks (or even months) of pain and agony, rather than taking their own life?

 

[lawtonfogle]

Then why did you bring up that contract at all, when it has nothing to do with the topic of this debate, which is abortion?

Why bring it up? Your post here has nothing to do with the topic of this debate, which is abortion, so please stop accusing others of something while doing it yourself.

 

[HannahBanana]

Why bring it up? Your post here has nothing to do with the topic of this debate, which is abortion, so please stop accusing others of something while doing it yourself.

At least I'm trying to get this thread back on-topic, which is more than I can say about you.

 

[lawtonfogle]

I could never understand why a person who is dying would want to take their own life. All one needs to do is stop taking any medication and let nature run its course. Certainly that is more natural than taking matters into one's own hands.

Same reason pain medication exist, humans do not like suffering, and the more pointless it is, the less we like it.

 

[starrycc]

I see this has sparked quite a debate on rather difficult ground.

It was supposed to question whose choice is it as to when a person dies, or whether a person should be brought into the world in the first place if the mother is not prepared to be a mother or is not strong enough to carry the weight or is too ill, insane or immature.

Ideally everyone behaves with good morals and respect and relationships don't turn to sexual ones unless the two people are sure that they are prepared to live together for life in marriage with the possibility of having children then they get married before they get too far... and only have sex when they both consent and are prepared for the consequences.

But unfortnunately the world is broken, people are broken and some want sex without responsibility of consequences.
Unfortunately some chose sex without thinking of what it might do to the one they force it on. Child trafficking the worst example. Youngsters being used and abused like products and slaves.
Others don't want sex but get it forced on them. I think it should be legal to resist rapist to the extent of causing them just enough harm to prevent their crime, because self defense is absolutely essential in that dangerous situation. Not just because of the fear of pregnancy, abortion, miscarriage or birth but because unwanted sex is a violation of a person's private space and traumatic enough to cause all kinds of mental and emotional torture. To think about abortion and the torture that is could be too much for a girl to cope with after already being dreadfully traumatised. It would be better to die than to carry that burden of emotional torture for life, being a burden to others... unless God heals the girl, which has happened to some...

It's not surprising there is homosexuality if there are people who want sex without pregnancy or parenthood. Or if there are some who are emotionally mixed up and afraid of the opposite gender but still wanting intimate relationships.

God almost did an abortion for David and Bathsheba as their illegitimate child died... their punishment for adultery... and a sort-of-relief from the reminder of it... but if that sin had not resulted in a pregnancy David would not have had to cover it up, no one would have found out. He would not have had to get Uriah to go home or to be killed... But the affair would still have been a sin, it was just a more obvious one because a baby appeared.

With the amount of abortions taking place in the world that is not the full extent of the sin... it's shocking that so many are prepared to do sex in unlawful or ungodly contexts. So much adultery, prostitution rape and other sexual activities... and it's not helped by media that is obsessed with sex and glorifying it like ancient pagan religions did.

God save us from this disgustingly minded society and save the babies that are created in an environment where they are not wanted and loved...! There are some decent people and couples who want children to adopt but maybe not enough for all the unwanted little ones...

Before the modern age countless babies died at birth and in the first year or two through poverty, malnutrition, disease and many women died giving birth or got thrown out of their families or stoned to death for being unmarried and pregnant. Modern health system has changed this, now abortion replaces all the old ways of dying... we have healthier lives but at a cost - now we don't need to have each family producing 5-10+ children to make sure a few survive, but people still carry on having sex as if nothing has changed.
We wanted smaller families in the modern world because we wouldn't have to work ouselves to the ground to provide... and smaller families get a higher standard of living.

Each age and each culture has its own ways of dealing with consequences and having too many mouths to feed...
Perhaps there is something good about the Middle-eastern way of keeping girls at home and marrying them off quickly so they're always protected by their father or their husband is their way of preventing unwanted pregnancies... from someone else... but then what rights does a girl in that situation have to stay single and celibate if she wants to? Not much. What right does she have to say no to a marriage to someone she detests? Or to marry someone she loves when the parents disapprove?

That's another whole rights/choice issue again!

Get back to the abortion topic - whose choice is it ? Aren't there better ways of avoiding conceiving babies - but providing contraceptives and pills to schoolgirls is just inviting trouble because they get a message that it's OK to have sex at their age without marriage. Something needs to be done to get young men's minds off sex and onto more useful topics. Or to stop their hormones controlling their habits. Best that everyone learns to live self-controlled respectful lives.

I think abortion is an abomination but the fact it is wanted in the first place shows an even greater abomination has taken place. In some cases it might be the kindest thing to do for the sake of the girl... but I think there must be extreme circumstances where there is no alternative way to care for both her and the baby.

I'm pro-life because God created each of us unique and with potential and we shouldn't destroy life or potential.

I'm pro-choice because I think every case is unique and some circumstances make life unbearable and every solution needs to be looked into before taking that drastic step.

I'm pro-celibacy&singleness because that's just as much a calling as marriage is - for individuals who want to concentrate life on making their own contribution to society through their gifts, knowledge and passions without getting too involved in relationships and dependants.

I'm pro-marriage&family because every child needs a stable caring environment to be provided for, nurtured and brought up as stable healthy and emotionally strong people

I'm pro-blessing because everyone needs compassion and the truth... especially those suffering pain, trauma, shame and guilt - all of us are precious to Him and he wants what is best and if we trust him we're blessed

I'm pro-prayer because God's best is best sought by praying about what to do in any situation.

So I pray for anyone who doesn't like what I've written to explain a better way so that we can understand the issues better and find the best way forwards.
I pray for an end to aggression and violence over pro-anti issue protests. I pray for abortion clinics and adoption agencies, pro-life pressure groups and politicians to come together and try to come to terms with the real-life issues they are making blanket statements about and not make laws without considering how they affect individuals' lives.
I pray that the church has a better attitude towards people in all kinds of situations and not come across as self-righteous judges or making sin OK. Jesus came to save sinners not to condemn us, to transform us and encourage us to live rightly.

 

[starrycc]

PS on suffering, I heard a great definition of the word:

"Suffering is having something you don't want or wanting something you don't have."

Anyone wanting an abortion is clearly already suffering because there is a new person in their life they are not prepared to give birth to or care for. It might be a constant reminder of another person they never want to see ever again.

They suffer because they want freedom and health not the problems pregnancy causes and the fear of pain.
So the first thing to note in an abortion-possibility case is that it is about an individual who is suffering enough already without being accused, condemned, demonised or disrespected because of her condition. It's not just about doing whatever's necessary, easiest or cheapest to save the life of the baby and/or its mother... but being sensitive to the woman's feelings, situation and desires.
Someone with a tumour, scar or growth they don't want can have it removed without guilt and shame but to remove an unborn baby is another matter altogether. The suffering is much worse because of the regret of destroying a life and undergoing an horrendously traumatic operation.

The choice is which suffering is worse - removing the baby or letting it be born into uncertain circumstances. Whichever way there is suffering.

Some cases the woman might want a baby but is advised to abort because scans show it is crippled and she hasn't the means and skills to cope with a disabled baby. Or because there are conjoined twins that will be impossible to separate, or some other non-viable distorted human life-form...!

Oh how we wish we could eradiate suffering from the world and everyone live respectfully and in peace and without all these problems our brokenness has created.
Praise God he can do something about it... please God we need you to fix this world!