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abortion and euthanasia - whose choice?

starrycc

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After hearing about the pro-life vs pro-choice debate, here are my thoughts. What are yours?

Pro-life is a better title than 'anti-abortion' (a double negative)

Pro-choice sounds good but it depends what the choice is.
Rights
Women have a right to decide how many children they want to have and when. They have a right to say no to sex. Pro-choice is assuming women have a right to have sex without going through with the consequences. It is assuming women or girls who get pregnant unintentionally have a right to choose to end it. But whose choice was it to get pregnant? If they chose to have sex it's their responsibility to deal with the consequences and get training for the tough challenges of birth and baby-caring and child-rearing or consider adoption. If they were forced in rape their choice has already been violated.
The rapist should be the one guilty of murder of the unborn because they made the baby in the first place only for it to be destroyed.

Pro-life
The best way for individuals and for society is to plan families sensibly: some people choosing celibate lives and others choosing faithful marriage and a reasonable number of children (0-3 or 4) and abstaining from sex before or outside marriage and after they have decided they have enough children. But unfortunately ideals are broken by non-marriage relationships and rape and society has to find ways of restoring individuals affected by unwanted pregnancies or unintentional sex: contraception, abortion and adoption.

adoption is the best for the baby, obviously, but better still for a caring family to adopt the mother as well as the baby.

contraception is an avoidance tactic encouraging sex-without-consequences

abortion is the worst option. It's not just a harmless operation like having a tooth extracted. Both can be torturous but abortion leaves much more traumatic consequences with the guilt of murder scarring the soul.

I thought it was the only option for some girls (to remove the shame of guilt from having underage/extramarital sex and to prevent the dreaded birth and motherhood responsibility) but since I heard about how horrendously excruciating it is, even worse than giving birth if that were possible, I'm convinced it's completely wrong, not only because it is murder of an innocent baby but because it wrecks a girl's life.

euthanasia
Who is to choose when someone else dies?
Who is to say which live and which die when treatment is in short supply?
I think it's better to let the very ill elderly to die naturally than to speed up the process with drugs. But never without giving God a chance to heal and save them!

Don't we all use euthanasia on our pets to put them out of their misery when their lives seem unbearably painful and we cannot cope with the inconvenience and mess of caring for incapacitated or incontinent pets?

murder
If it is murder to kill any life-form we're all mass murderers of mosquitoes, ants, slugs, worms, other bugs, vermin, livestock and bacteria!
We slaughter animals fish and birds so we can eat meat, which we need for a strong healthy active life, but that is considered a sacrifice not a murder.

Is God a murderer because he allowed death into the world, he destroyed all but 8 humans with the flood and countless biblical accounts of God putting to death those who would not repent of their wickedness? Or is he being a just judge executing his judgments on criminals?
I think God was being pro-life all along, but that sometimes meant destroying some life to allow other life to flourish. Does that make God mean?
He does not willingly punish the wicked but would prefer them to repent.

Abortion is chosing the girls' plans for independence over the baby's right to exist. She decides it's too difficult and inconvenient to be a mother.

Thanks be to God he did not abort the human race with the flood but gave us a second chance. He could have scrapped humanity and created a new race that would please him better and care for the Earth and for each other properly. Perhaps that's what he's doing now by re-creating a new humanity by changing individuals into people after his heart who work for justice, restoration and compassion.

The abortion and euthanasia debates are more about personal emotional and pshycological issues of individual situations than sweeping statements of philosophers arguing the issue from a difference with only the perspective of population control and scientific understanding of the effects.
And of course religious convictions play a big part - as do selfish motives.
 

HannahBanana

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I personally am pro-choice, since I'm able to realize that the life of a non-sentient first-trimester fetus (what little life it has, that is) is more expendable than the life of the woman carrying it. Plus, why should any woman be forced through pregnancy and childbirth (neither of which are a walk in the park) against her will? The whole pro-life viewpoint just makes no sense to me, since it seems to completely ignore the free will of the mother, and instead, see her as some sort of baby-making machine, who should just eagerly gestate every fetus she ends up conceiving.
 
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david_x

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I personally am pro-choice, since I'm able to realize that the life of a non-sentient first-trimester fetus (what little life it has, that is) is more expendable than the life of the woman carrying it. Plus, why should any woman be forced through pregnancy and childbirth (neither of which are a walk in the park) against her will? The whole pro-life viewpoint just makes no sense to me, since it seems to completely ignore the free will of the mother, and instead, see her as some sort of baby-making machine, who should just eagerly gestate every fetus she ends up conceiving.

Your second pointed countered you first point.

1. Forced to carry it against her will.
2. She conceived it.

You see, it not as if the child decided it wanted to be made. It was the action of the mother and father.
 
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HannahBanana

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Your second pointed countered you first point.

1. Forced to carry it against her will.
2. She conceived it.

You see, it not as if the child decided it wanted to be made. It was the action of the mother and father.
But it's not as though people who aren't ready for children can't have sex. I mean, why do you think there are such things as unwanted pregnancies? So basically, what you're saying is that a woman who is faced with an unwanted pregnancy should be forced through that pregnancy against her will. Am I understanding you correctly?
 
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david_x

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But it's not as though people who aren't ready for children can't have sex. I mean, why do you think there are such things as unwanted pregnancies? So basically, what you're saying is that a woman who is faced with an unwanted pregnancy should be forced through that pregnancy against her will. Am I understanding you correctly?

Unwanted is not the same as unwarranted. If you have sex you might get pregnant. Every couple realizes this. A child should not be killed because the parents are not mature enough to be abstinent.

I'm saying that if your grown up enough to have sex your old enough to see it through to the end.
 
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HannahBanana

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Unwanted is not the same as unwarranted. If you have sex you might get pregnant. Every couple realizes this. A child should not be killed because the parents are not mature enough to be abstinent.

I'm saying that if your grown up enough to have sex your old enough to see it through to the end.
What about mentally ill women who aren't even able to take care of themselves at all? What about women who are addicted to drugs and/or alcohol and aren't willing to go "cold turkey" during their pregnancy? What about women who are so deep in poverty that they wouldn't be able to afford everything their child would need, and who are morally against adoption? Like it or not, not every woman is mentally, physically, or financially able to deal with pregnancy. And that's why abortion needs to remain legal.
 
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david_x

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What about mentally ill women who aren't even able to take care of themselves at all? What about women who are addicted to drugs and/or alcohol and aren't willing to go "cold turkey" during their pregnancy? What about women who are so deep in poverty that they wouldn't be able to afford everything their child would need, and who are morally against adoption? Like it or not, not every woman is mentally, physically, or financially able to deal with pregnancy. And that's why abortion needs to remain legal.

I'd be more than happy to change it so that only mentally, physically, and financially stable women have to see the pregnancy out. That would take care of 90-99 percent of the problem anyways.

Would that be okay by you?
 
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HannahBanana

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I'd be more than happy to change it so that only mentally, physically, and financially stable women have to see the pregnancy out. That would take care of 90-99 percent of the problem anyways.

Would that be okay by you?
Are you saying that anyone who isn't mentally, physically, and financially stable should be sterilized? You do realize that that's the same sort of idea that Hitler had, don't you? Also, you do realize that that would mean that I would have to be sterilized, since I have quite a few mental illnesses (those being social anxiety, depression, and hypochondria)?

Go ahead, tell me directly that you want me to be sterilized just because I happen to have a few mental illnesses, none of which I ever chose to have.
 
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david_x

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Are you saying that anyone who isn't mentally, physically, and financially stable should be sterilized? You do realize that that's the same sort of idea that Hitler had, don't you? Also, you do realize that that would mean that I would have to be sterilized, since I have quite a few mental illnesses (those being social anxiety, depression, and hypochondria)?

Go ahead, tell me directly that you want me to be sterilized just because I happen to have a few mental illnesses, none of which I ever chose to have.

Where the heck did you get that?!?!?!!

I never suggested anyone should get sterilized!
 
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HannahBanana

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Where the heck did you get that?!?!?!!

I never suggested anyone should get sterilized!
How else would you make it so that only those who were physically, mentally, and financially stable could reproduce? Sterilization is the only way to do that...unless I'm missing something, that is.
 
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david_x

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How else would you make it so that only those who were physically, mentally, and financially stable could reproduce? Sterilization is the only way to do that...unless I'm missing something, that is.

I never said anything remotely like that.
 
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HannahBanana

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I never said anything remotely like that.
Actually, you did. Here's a direct quote from you, taken from post #8 in this thread:
I'd be more than happy to change it so that only mentally, physically, and financially stable women have to see the pregnancy out.
 
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HannahBanana

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That doesn't say that only certain women should be able to get pregnant, does it.
Okay, it says that only certain women should have to see the pregnancy out. That's basically the same thing, you know, since, in order to make it so that only certain women can remain pregnant, you have to take away the possibility of pregnancy from all other women. Unless, that is, you realize that abortion is necessary, and you're okay with women getting abortions.
 
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david_x

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Okay, it says that only certain women should have to see the pregnancy out. That's basically the same thing, you know, since, in order to make it so that only certain women can remain pregnant, you have to take away the possibility of pregnancy from all other women. Unless, that is, you realize that abortion is necessary, and you're okay with women getting abortions.

No, you would allow women who did not meet the criteria get an abortion if they wanted to. That's why it was a compromise.
 
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HannahBanana

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No, you would allow women who did not meet the criteria get an abortion if they wanted to. That's why it was a compromise.
Oh, okay. I understand now, and I apologize for misunderstanding what you were saying. I think that's a good compromise, by the way.
 
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underpressure

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Unwanted is not the same as unwarranted. If you have sex you might get pregnant. Every couple realizes this. A child should not be killed because the parents are not mature enough to be abstinent.

I'm saying that if your grown up enough to have sex your old enough to see it through to the end.

If you don't mind me asking, could you expand on why an unborn child or foetus should not be killed if it's what both parents want? I always like to get to the bottom of someone's argument, I don't think it's enough to say that x shouldn't be killed without a reason behind it, you might have a very valid one but would just like to hear it. :)
 
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david_x

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If you don't mind me asking, could you expand on why an unborn child or foetus should not be killed if it's what both parents want? I always like to get to the bottom of someone's argument, I don't think it's enough to say that x shouldn't be killed without a reason behind it, you might have a very valid one but would just like to hear it. :)

Why? Life is more important than two people's 'wants'.
 
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