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Abortion: All Should Read

seebs

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The interesting question is whether all things which are biologically human have yet attained "personhood", which is not an entirely trivial question.

I would feel a lot more comfortable with "it's a person from the instant of conception" question if I had a good explanation for why 75% of the people who have ever lived never even had differentiated neural tissue.
 
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SolomonVII

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jayem said:
I agree with the responses that have been offered so far, but I'll put it another way. In no way whatsoever do I agree with the Aryan Nations or the KKK. I think espousing white supremacy is abhorrent. But I don't think government should criminalize the expression of those views. So if I support the right of the KKK to hold a peaceful rally, does that mean I'm "pro racism?" Of course not. It only means that if criminalization is the proposed solution to a problem, then the solution is worse than the problem itself.
If the average person that supports pro-choice on abortion expressed abhorrence of abortion as easily as you have expressed you abhorrence of white supremacy, this analogy would be make more sense.
 
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Gallego

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TommyS said:
  • A fetus is not a human. (Or, at least until a certain stage).
  • A fetus must have all the qualities of a human to be a human.
I will discuss these 2 points, as they are closely related.
Why? Because until a certain stage, a fetus has not the qualities to be human.

Which quality is that -> the nervous system developed in a minimum level.
 
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J

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seebs said:
The interesting question is whether all things which are biologically human have yet attained "personhood", which is not an entirely trivial question.

I would feel a lot more comfortable with "it's a person from the instant of conception" question if I had a good explanation for why 75% of the people who have ever lived never even had differentiated neural tissue.
I think the main problem is the arbitrary drawing of a line. about the only place one can really draw a line, if one does not accept shades of grey, is conception, but even then this is itself grey, since is a concieved embryo outside the uterus (IV fertilisation) governed by this, since it requires additional human input in order for it to have a chance at life.

The problem is that if we treat every fetus as a human, shouldn't we name them at conception and have a funeral for every miscarriage, no matter how early (we might have a funeral at every menstrual cycle after which a woman has had unprotected sex, since it is plausible that the egg might be a miscarriage, and it would be a bit harsh to miss one) - we are treating them as fully human after all, so I see no real reason not to. (someone point out to me if I am sliding along some slippery slope here)
 
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Katydid

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I believe the analogy of a CHOSEN abortion to a miscarriage is ridiculous. A miscarriage occurs because the BODY, not the MIND, decides that the baby cannot survive to full term. It is a natural occurence. To compare this to a woman who feels that it would inconvenience her to give birth so she intentially and willfuly destroys that baby, is not only wrong, but very degrading to the woman who prayed and hoped and then lost her child. The idea of having a funeral at every menstrual cycle is completely ludicrious considering that those eggs, fertile or unfertile, failed to attach themselves to the lining of the uterus and therefore had no chance, chosen by nature not an individual, to have a life. And just so you know, many people do have a funeral for miscarried baby's, many have a memorial of some kind and most mourn for a time after the miscarriage.

All I have asked, and yet have not recieved an answer to from anyone is at what stage does the "fetus" become human. Someone said, "when it is viable", where there have been second trimester babies born who survived, so that, to me, means that there is a chance second trimester babies are viable. How about partial birth abortion? Are those of you who are pro-choice, in favor of this or against? All I am asking is for some definitive guidelines to follow. When should it be illegal to abort a child, or does the mother have the option to kill the child as it is exiting her womb because it hasn't taken a breath of air yet?
 
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Gallego

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Katydid said:
It is a natural occurence.

... chosen by nature not an individual
There is nothing natural or nature since we are always apllying our medical knowledge, our technical knowledge.

A fetus can be saved by medicaments. So do you think that it is a mind decission (so no natural) to help it to live?
 
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TScott

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Katydid said:
Katydid said:
where did you find this out?

Hi Katydid,
It's in the Apocalypse of Peter. This was said to have been one of the most popular pieces of scripture second only to the Gospel of John. Even though it was not chosen to be included in canon it was still read in churches as late as the 5th or 6th c. It gave a fairly graphic account as to what happens to women who have abortions.

The 25th v. of the Apocalypse of Peter:
And near that place I saw another strait place into which the gore and the filth of those who were being punished ran down and became there as it were a lake: and there sat women having the gore up to their necks, and over against them sat many children who were born to them out of due time, crying; and there came forth from them sparks of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion.
 
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Shredder

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Development is an ongoing process that dosn't stop until . Even at age 90, one's cells regenerate and body changes. To say that not being fully developed (such as a fetus in utero) justifies abortion is to say is ok at any point in life. We are never finished growing. Being pro-life isnt about shoving your beliefs down other people's throats, its about looking at the big picture and accepting the fact that doing the right thing usually isn't what's personally convenient. If ignoring your selfish instincts was always fun and easy, would there be much honor in it?
 
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Ave Maria

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Well, I read some stuff on the National Right to Life Committee website and I must say that I am now definitely Pro-Life. Also, the OP's comments helped me to make that decision. I used to be Pro-Choice. I was one of those who said that abortion is wrong but it should be up to the mother. Well, if abortion is murder, then how can I honestly say that the woman has the right to murder her unborn child?! I cannot sit here and say that and still be justified in the eyes of God!

But when does life begin you may ask? Life begins at conception! Here are some links that discuss this:

Does life begin when the embryo implants?

Does life being when the fetus "looks human"?

Does life begin when there is human sentiment for the embryo/fetus?

Does life begin when the fetus first moves?

Does life begin when the brain starts functioning?

Does life begin when the fetus is viable?

Does life begin when the fetus becomes sentient or aware?

Is there a difference between a human being and a person? Is an unborn child a person?


Does the fetus gradually become more and more human and of greater value?


Here is a link about fetal development.

Here is an excellent site with tons of pictures and explanations of the various life states. It is bandwidth intensive though so if you have a slow connection, you might not want to visit this site. However, it is very interesting!

Also, here is some more excellent Pro-Life sites that discuss abortion and life before birth:

Life Before Birth

http://www.prolife.com/

http://www.prolifeinfo.com/

http://www.prolifeaction.org/
 
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tcampen

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I am pro-choice and I believe life begins at conception. One cannot deny that a unique organism, with its own DNA, is alive at conception. But I still do not find the reason in affording a single cell organism (which could eventually develop into a human being) all the same rights as an infant. Bright lines are certainly easy to follow and understand, but that alone doesn't make it right. I've yet to here a rational argument why a single cell is so qualitatively similar to a developed individual as to justify considering it a person with full constitutional protections. Babies born with just a brain stem and no brain are not kept alive indefinitely, for without a brain, this is really no person there - just a body. Similarly, a single cell has no thoughts, no pain receptors, no organs, no limbs, no brain, no face, nothing but a single cell that has the potential to develop into a full person. There has to be a way we define a "person" beyond DNA and potential, for it an intellectual leap to look a single cell and see a human being in even the most remote qualitative sense.

I use the single cell as the example, because for the position to hold up, it must hold up there. I tend to agree with the US Supreme Court holdings on the issue that see an increasing right to life as the fetus develops. But where to draw the line is exceedingly difficult, and I don't claim to know where to do it. But I also cannot just take the bright line approach just because it is easy and convenient. What I can say is that a single cell, or 16 or 32 for that matter, cannot be considered fully human with full constitutional protections as a grown person, a child, an infant, or even an unborn child in the 8th month of pregnancy. I've read the posts and links, and I still don't see it.

Furthermore, for a true pro-life position to be consistent, wanting abortions to be criminal conduct on par with 1st degree murder, then we'd expect to find several other postions such as:

- opposed in-vitro fertilization proceedures for couples otherwise unable to conceive;
- put pregnant mothers in jail for smoking, drinking alcohol, knowing exposure to asbestos, or engaging in any activity known to put the unborn child at risk;
- guarantee to help support the child of any woman who decides not to have an abortion until that child turns 18;
- oppose any couple trying to conceive if that couple is aware of a high probability of a miscarriage
- oppose aborting the fetus if the mother's life is in danger
- oppose aborting a pregnancy that is the result of a brutal rape

I'm just not seeing pro-life advocates following through with these issues at all, most of which are far less daunting than trying to criminalize abortions.

While I may be pro-choice, and am not pro-abortion. I would certainly prefer there were never another abortion desired or performed. We are all aware of the anecdotal horror stories of late term abortions or those who use abortions as casual birth control. But a vast majority of terminations do not fall into these categories. A vast majory are performed within weeks of conception, not withing weeks of birth. A vast majority of women agonize over their decision of whether to have an abortion, and do not have more than one.

Chipping away at the Constituion or even trying to pass new Constitutional Amendments are not the answer. If pro-lifers are really so committed to their cause, they should work towards a society where abortions are not desired or sought for any reason. Criminalizing it would likely reduce the overall number of abortions to some extent, but would not eliminate it by any stretch, and would certianly put lower income women at severe health risk. (Women with money were always able to get abortions, even before Roe v. Wade.)

This is a complicated issue, where I think reasonable minds can differ. The problem is that it tends to be more emotionally charged than anything. I hope the two sides can look towards their similar goals, rather than the differences someday.
 
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tcampen

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Jet Black said:
I think the main problem is the arbitrary drawing of a line. about the only place one can really draw a line, if one does not accept shades of grey, is conception, but even then this is itself grey, since is a concieved embryo outside the uterus (IV fertilisation) governed by this, since it requires additional human input in order for it to have a chance at life.

The problem is that if we treat every fetus as a human, shouldn't we name them at conception and have a funeral for every miscarriage, no matter how early (we might have a funeral at every menstrual cycle after which a woman has had unprotected sex, since it is plausible that the egg might be a miscarriage, and it would be a bit harsh to miss one) - we are treating them as fully human after all, so I see no real reason not to. (someone point out to me if I am sliding along some slippery slope here)
It's no slippery slope, just a rational extension of the argument which displays its inconsistency. And your point about IV Fertilization is well taken. My brother and his wife would not have their child today without that process, which necessarily results in the destruction of fertilized eggs. Why would anyone want my brother to not have a beautiful son?
 
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Magisterium

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Gallego said:
We don't ask when life begins.

What we are debating is when is this life human?

Guys! What's the problem here?!! I assume all of you can read!

Look up the word human. It means belonging to the genus and species of homo-sapient.

Main Entry: 2human
Function: noun
: a bipedal primate mammal (Homo sapiens)

As I stated before, when two members of a species procreate, the offspring will necessarilly be a member of that species. In other words, when two humans procreate, the offspring is necessarilly human. It's a scientific law! Further, if there might still be any doubt, the child's DNA will always confirm that.

As for determining when this human becomes a person, This is as well a non-issue. You see, according to our constitution certain rights, such as the right to life, are "recognized" by our country as inalienable. That means that the right to life is always applied to any human being regardless of citizenship or anything else.

In that respect, "personhood" in it's strictest legal sense really has no bearing on the right to life. If it's human (which it is) and it's living (which it is) it's recognized to possess the right to life.
 
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Gallego

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Magisterium said:
1- Guys! What's the problem here?!! I assume all of you can read!
...
2- As I stated before, when two members of a species procreate, the offspring will necessarilly be a member of that species. In other words, when two humans procreate, the offspring is necessarilly human. It's a scientific law!
1- Please, be polite. There is no need to say that things.

2- Then a seed is a tree. Then a miscarriage will result in a funeral.
 
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Magisterium

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Gallego said:
1- Please, be polite. There is no need to say that things.

2- Then a seed is a tree. Then a miscarriage will result in a funeral.
I've already explained to you that a seed is not in an organismic state. I also explained to you just what an organismic state is. (it's a state of animation).

So no, a seed is not a tree, just as a woman's unfertilized egg is not a human being. Do you remember the explanation?

Additionally, a miscarraige can indeed result in a funeral. In fact, there are many psychologists who recommend this practice to aid in obtaining closure and healing when one loses a child before birth.
 
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Gallego

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Magisterium said:
I've already explained to you that a seed is not in an organismic state. I also explained to you just what an organismic state is. (it's a state of animation).

So no, a seed is not a tree, just as a woman's unfertilized egg is not a human being. Do you remember the explanation?

Additionally, a miscarraige can indeed result in a funeral. In fact, there are many psychologists who recommend this practice to aid in obtaining closure and healing when one loses a child before birth.
organismic state (by you):
organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction (emphasis added)

A seed can metabolice (-> I don't know the exact verb)? Yes, it can react
Can it grow? Yes
Can it reaction to stimuli? Yes, to water or to light
Can it reproduct? Yes, when growed

And, opposite as what you said, the seed is not analogous to an unfertilized egg, because the seed has ben fertilized: it has male & female parts. It only needs growth.

When a miscarriage? Do you go to the civil register to register its death?
 
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Magisterium

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Gallego said:
organismic state (by you):
organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction (emphasis added)

A seed can metabolice (-> I don't know the exact verb)? Yes, it can react
Can it grow? Yes
Can it reaction to stimuli? Yes, to water or to light
Can it reproduct? Yes, when growed

And, opposite as what you said, the seed is not analogous to an unfertilized egg, because the seed has ben fertilized: it has male & female parts. It only needs growth.

When a miscarriage? Do you go to the civil register to register its death?
The question of "can" it do these things, is different than "is it already doing" these things. However, I will concede that perhaps a seed may indeed be considered in a dormant organismic state. This may very well be the case. I'll have to consult with a biology professor and get back to you.

However, this really has no bearing on the topic of this thread. The fact is, once a woman's egg is fertilized, it immediately qualifies as life and that life is necessarilly human. This fact stands whether or not a plant seed is dormant life or not.

As for the registration of unborn for death I'm not sure what the US federal and local laws on this practice are. However, If there are records of pregnancy exams from an obstetrician, it will be in the best interest of the mother-to-be to have some official record of the miscarraige in order to eliminate possible later suspicion of infanticide.
 
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Gallego

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Magisterium said:
However, this really has no bearing on the topic of this thread. The fact is, once a woman's egg is fertilized, it immediately qualifies as life and that life is necessarilly human. This fact stands whether or not a plant seed is dormant life or not.
So, the analogies that doesn't serve to you, they are useless and out of topic.

OK, then why are you debating?
 
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Magisterium

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Gallego said:
So, the analogies that doesn't serve to you, they are useless and out of topic.

OK, then why are you debating?
The problem is that you said that if human life begins at conception then a seed is a tree. It turns out, that a seed is not a tree just as fetus is not an adult. However, the species of a seed is fixed just as the species of the fertilized egg is fixed. The fact is, we're discussing whether or not a fertilized egg is a human. I've already explained that it is by all scientific definitions. You threw in the bit about the seed being a tree and we got side-tracked.
 
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