Abomination of desolation? When?

[Barney]

Mar 13:9　 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.　

When I talk with most Christians, I always have a nagging feeling that they've never read the Bible. Really, in the "end times", supposedly any moment now, we're going to be beaten in the synagogues? Yea, when you consider that 19 is twice 50 but not less than that, add 344 days... see, it makes sense.

 

[jgr]

Ok JGR I Better Understand Your Position?

1. You State That The Tribulation Seen In Matthew 24:21 Was Fulfilled In 66-70AD

2. You Believe "Tribulation" As Seen In Matthew 24:29 Represented The Tribulation Seen In Matthew 24:21

3. You Believe "Immediately" Seen In Matthew 24:29 Represents Near/Quick

JGR How Is It You Believe The Great Tribulation Takes Place In 66-70AD When "Immediately After The Tribulation" We See The Second Advent In Matthew 24:30 "They Shall See The Son Of Man" That You Believe Is Future?

You Have A Tribulation Fulfilled In 66-70AD, Then "Immediately After this Tribulation" Near/Quick We See The Second Advent, That You Believe Is Future?

As Scripture Clearly Teaches, It's Impossible To Believe And Teach The Great Tribulation Took Place In 66-70AD, Because The Future Second Advent Is Seen Following This Great Tribulation "Immediately"?

Matthew 24:21-31KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Truth7t7

The issue is whether the "thens" in verse 30 are of the past/present variety, or of the future variety. The original Greek word can be legitimately interpreted in any of the three tenses. Given that there are no historical events known to fulfill verses 30 and 31, it is evident that verses 30 and 31 are still future unfulfilled.

Verse 29 was fulfilled metaphorically immediately following the tribulation, as explained earlier.

 

[Truth7t7]

The issue is whether the "thens" in verse 30 are of the past/present variety, or of the future variety. The original Greek word can be legitimately interpreted in any of the three tenses. Given that there are no historical events known to fulfill verses 30 and 31, it is evident that verses 30 and 31 are still future unfulfilled.

Verse 29 was fulfilled metaphorically immediately following the tribulation, as explained earlier.

You have Matthew 24:3-28 as literal, and you believe verse 29 is a Metaphor, then verses 30-31 are literal again, Im Smiling!

Thats a Big Smile jgr, you get rid of verse 29 that proves your systems error, "Immediately After The Tribulation" is literal not a metaphor

Then you try to sell your past/present/future variety of then, Im Smiling Again!

A little Bend And Twist the scripture, poof we have a 66-70AD tribulation Hopefully you can see why the arguments to support partial preterism are not credible.

 

[BABerean2]

Hopefully you can see why the arguments to support partial preterism are not credible.

Try to ignore one of the two questions in Matthew 24:3 and then you can make Full-Futurism work.

Then try to pretend that Paul did not fulfill Mark 13:9.

Then try to pretend that Jerusalem was not surrounded by an army and the people carried off into captivity during 70 AD, which almost all Bible scholars agree is found in Luke 21:24.

Then ignore Matthew 23:38.

Mat 23:38　 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


Ignore that Christ confirms the coming persecution to His disciples in the text below.

Persecution Will Come (subtitle from eSword)

Mat 10:16　 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.　
Mat 10:17　 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;　
Mat 10:18　 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.　
Mat 10:19　 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.　

　

Talk about the Jesuit Alcazar, but ignore the Jesuit Ribera.

If there is anything at all about 70 AD in the entire Olivet Discourse, it makes Christ a partial-preterist, instead of a Full-Futurist.



You still need to check the cleats of your boots.
You have already confirmed that you spent time in the cow pasture.

You have done an excellent job of abandoning the pretrib and premill doctrines, but still have some work left to be done.


What is your viewpoint of Daniel 9:27?
It is one of the pillars of modern Dispensational Theology.

.

 

[Tayla]

When? Or was it in 70 AD?

(Matthew 24:15) The abomination of desolation was around 66 A.D.:

This notable misuse of the temple began a few years before the final destruction of the temple (in 70 A.D.) when the revolutionaries stopped the sacrifices on behalf of the Romans triggering the start of the Jewish War. After that: (1) The rebels used the temple as a military base, (2) Eleazar allowed armed terrorists into the temple to live, and (3) there were murders and massacres in the temple.

Jesus is not referring to the same event as (Daniel 11:31). That was during the time of Antiochus Epiphanes whereas here Jesus refers to a time yet-future for the disciples, during the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. The reference here is to (Daniel 12:11).​

(Matthew 24:16) Christians in Jerusalem noticed this abomination of desolation of (Matthew 24:15) and fled the city; a historical fact.

 

[jgr]

You have Matthew 24:3-28 as literal, and you believe verse 29 is a Metaphor, then verses 30-31 are literal again, Im Smiling!

Thats a Big Smile jgr, you get rid of verse 29 that proves your systems error, "Immediately After The Tribulation" is literal not a metaphor

Then you try to sell your past/present/future variety of then, Im Smiling Again!

A little Bend And Twist the scripture, poof we have a 66-70AD tribulation Hopefully you can see why the arguments to support partial preterism are not credible.

So you reject all of the historical and scriptural evidence in post 45?

Please select any of the evidence presented there, and provide your (ir)rationale for rejecting it.

But keep smilin'.

 

[Barney]

In indisputable fact, an abomination caused desolation in 70 AD. This desolation matched very nicely Jesus' and Daniel's prophesies. It's interesting how Futurists try to recreate first-century events. Another Israel. Another Temple of God. Another desolation. Another great tribulation. And, in doing so, they need to redefine and destroy the meaning of terms like "soon" and "this generation", and they force unnecessary meaning onto other terms, like "earth". Their only excuse for this is to insist that symbolic language is literal, and those symbolic events haven't literally happened. E.g. a giant red dragon hasn't swept a third of the stars out of the sky, so this event must be the future. Never mind the dragon is a symbol for Satan and the stars represent angels, and this is symbolic of Satan's past rebellion against God. How does a star literally fall? How much devastation would be done by just one star falling? Yet, Futurists insanely insist we take these symbols in visions or dreams literally.

I think it's more of an issue of some Christians being truth-challenged, or at least their pastors, than sincere disagreement... whatever the issues that divide Christians.

 

[Barney]

You have Matthew 24:3-28 as literal, and you believe verse 29 is a Metaphor, then verses 30-31 are literal again, Im Smiling!

Matthew 24:3-28 is presented as natural and literal events. V. 29 is impossible to take literally. It's instantly obvious that v. 29 is a figure of speech. And, the Old Testament's use of that same figure of speech reveals to us the meaning.

You objections to my theology carry no weight. My objections to your theology easily demolish what you believe, countless times over.

 

[Truth7t7]

Matthew 24:3-28 is presented as natural and literal events. V. 29 is impossible to take literally. It's instantly obvious that v. 29 is a figure of speech. And, the Old Testament's use of that same figure of speech reveals to us the meaning.

You objections to my theology carry no weight. My objections to your theology easily demolish what you believe, countless times over.

The entire chapter of Matthew 24:3-51 is dedicated to the second advent of Jesus Christ

Verse 29 is a figure of speech?

I agree 100%, a literal figure of speech from Jesus Christ in regards to his "Future" second advent.

 

[christianforumsuser]

When? Or was it in 70 AD?

Isn't she a harlot
What kind of woman calls herself a princess or queen apart from God? Not married lawfully but fornicating and adultering, blaspheming the Holy Spirit by rejecting what's good
But how many people can be a false prophet yet be proven wrong in a delusion, deceived
Wasn't sin passed to a goat and a scapegoat sent to the wilderness?

You can call something nice...and then everyone calls it nice
Is it nice and polite? Holy?

 

[Truth7t7]

[Qdon't ="jgr, post: 71952218, member: 215991"]So you reject all of the historical and scriptural evidence in post 45?

Please select any of the evidence presented there, and provide your (ir)rationale for rejecting it.

But keep smilin'.[/QUOTE]
I dont need to refer to another post, the second advent of Jesus Christ is the central theme of the entire chapter of Matthew 24 that you deny is seen, simple.

 

[Truth7t7]

Try to ignore one of the two questions in Matthew 24:3 and then you can make Full-Futurism work.

Then try to pretend that Paul did not fulfill Mark 13:9.

Then try to pretend that Jerusalem was not surrounded by an army and the people carried off into captivity during 70 AD, which almost all Bible scholars agree is found in Luke 21:24.

Then ignore Matthew 23:38.

Mat 23:38　 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


Ignore that Christ confirms the coming persecution to His disciples in the text below.

Persecution Will Come (subtitle from eSword)

Mat 10:16　 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.　
Mat 10:17　 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;　
Mat 10:18　 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.　
Mat 10:19　 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.　

　

Talk about the Jesuit Alcazar, but ignore the Jesuit Ribera.

If there is anything at all about 70 AD in the entire Olivet Discourse, it makes Christ a partial-preterist, instead of a Full-Futurist.



You still need to check the cleats of your boots.
You have already confirmed that you spent time in the cow pasture.

You have done an excellent job of abandoning the pretrib and premill doctrines, but still have some work left to be done.


What is your viewpoint of Daniel 9:27?
It is one of the pillars of modern Dispensational Theology.

.

Then ignore Matthew 24:29 in the second advent "immediately after the tribulation""they shall see the son of man"
Clearly seen that destroys your theory of 66-70AD fulfillment.

 

[christianforumsuser]

A key and gate
People can approach Scripture the right way...how is that...as there's so many doctrines and so little time
Maybe whoever builds artificial intelligence seeds will make an image for good...haha I doubt it

 

[jgr]

[Qdon't ="jgr, post: 71952218, member: 215991"]So you reject all of the historical and scriptural evidence in post 45?

Please select any of the evidence presented there, and provide your (ir)rationale for rejecting it.

But keep smilin'.

I dont need to refer to another post, the second advent of Jesus Christ is the central theme of the entire chapter of Matthew 24 that you deny is seen, simple. [/QUOTE]


You're right; if you insist on rejecting any and all evidence, you don't need to refer to it.

Futurism fantasizes. History realizes.

 

[christianforumsuser]

Do yu know the signs of the times in the sky?
If your eyes did not see something directly...do you not still see evidence and probe a guess at what preceded or is coming in time?

How has soeone learned...and made decisions
As such a limited man might get away with things for a time so he seeks ways for worldly pleasure in sin against one or another...is there any love...except the empty words of a man used to yet further make gains for himself to squander with laughs for now
Is such a queen or a female dog, lots of disgusting things happen unseen in the mind and behind closed doors
But is it not disgusting as long as every man agrees such is a queen
Do the acts define a man...or indicate symptoms

Such is how modern medicine works in the west...with a rich doctor managing every special task but not in harmony...so they work against each other as the patient is sick inside but the tests linearly prove "within healthy range"
As they see a symptom and address it...but not by the root and source
So the bandages only distract from the inner problem

 

[Truth7t7]

Do yu know the signs of the times in the sky?
If your eyes did not see something directly...do you not still see evidence and probe a guess at what preceded or is coming in time?

How has soeone learned...and made decisions
As such a limited man might get away with things for a time so he seeks ways for worldly pleasure in sin against one or another...is there any love...except the empty words of a man used to yet further make gains for himself to squander with laughs for now
Is such a queen or a female dog, lots of disgusting things happen unseen in the mind and behind closed doors
But is it not disgusting as long as every man agrees such is a queen
Do the acts define a man...or indicate symptoms

Such is how modern medicine works in the west...with a rich doctor managing every special task but not in harmony...so they work against each other as the patient is sick inside but the tests linearly prove "within healthy range"
As they see a symptom and address it...but not by the root and source
So the bandages only distract from the inner problem

Who are you responding to, you have no quote

 

[BABerean2]

Then ignore Matthew 24:29 in the second advent "immediately after the tribulation""they shall see the son of man"
Clearly seen that destroys your theory of 66-70AD fulfillment.

I am not ignoring the verse.

The Book of Revelation guarantees tribulation to the Church before Christ returns.

Rev_1:9　 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev_2:9　 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev_2:10　 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev_7:14　 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Do a little research on Luke 21:24 and find out how many Bible scholars agree with you about the verse being in the future.
Then show us a list of those you found, if you can find any.
.

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

Johnathan, the mark is not the bismillah. It is not known exactly what the mark is at the present time. The 666 is the number of his (the beast's) name. The mark is some sort of symbol, not the number.

Keep in mind the person will not be the Antichrist any longer when he becomes the persona of the beast in Revelation 13.

The person is the Antichrist only while he is in the role of being the King of Israel. "The" Christ refers to the special King, that God would send to Israel to lead them and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety among other things. That person has to be descended from King David.

Jesus is the one that God sent - but Israel rejected him as their king. The Antichrist will be the another the Jews will embrace (for a short time) as their King of Israel... instead of and against Jesus the rightful King of Israel.

After 3 years 3 months, thereabouts into his reign as King of Israel, the Antichrist commits the act of 2Thessalonians2:4.... revealing himself as the man of sin. Which will mortify the Jews and they will reject him from continuing as their King - thus ending his time as the Antichrist.

He then shortly becomes the beast of Revelation that last 42 months in Revelation 13:5.

I will not argue with you about whether the Bismallah is the Mark of the Beast from Revelation 13, but it DOES contain 3 symbols that are nearly identical to what John wrote down from Jesus Christ. Therefore, by God's Grace, I will call John's symbols he wrote down from Jesus Christ, the Mark of the Beast, and I will declare to everyone worldwide that if you receive those symbols in your right hand/arm/forehead, whether you call them "Bismallah" or not, you will burn in the Lake of Fire forever, just as we have been warned in Revelation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Douggg]

I will not argue with you about whether the Bismallah is the Mark of the Beast from Revelation 13, but it DOES contain 3 symbols that are nearly identical to what John wrote down from Jesus Christ. Therefore, by God's Grace, I will call John's symbols he wrote down from Jesus Christ, the Mark of the Beast, and I will declare to everyone worldwide that if you receive those symbols in your right hand/arm/forehead, whether you call them "Bismallah" or not, you will burn in the Lake of Fire forever, just as we have been warned in Revelation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jonathan,

link:
Revelation 13 KJV + Strong's

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

mark -χάραγμα, ατος, τό

name - ὄνομα, ατος, τό

number (Six hundred threescore [and] six.- χξϛ )

How does the greek for "mark", in similitude, look like the bismillah? Greek words are greek words - the greek word for mark, itself, is not a symbol for the mark of the beast.

I think the claim (errantly) is that the χξϛ was not a greek word for 666, but instead John wrote down the bismillah - which was mistaken for "666".

The problem with the claim is that χξϛ is prefixed as said to be a number.... which eliminates χξϛ as being the bismillah, which is not a number.

The mark has nothing to do with the Muslims. We don't know what the mark is, yet. Islam itself will not be around when the 666 buy/sell law of the land becomes in effect.

 

[BABerean2]

We don't know what the mark is, yet.

Look above the eagles head on the back of a one dollar bill and you will find it.

It is the symbol of the Rothschild family.
They are the "money changers" who now own and control much of the planet.

Their goal is to establish a one world government, with its capital in Jerusalem.

Many modern Christians are unwittingly aiding in this effort.

.