Ablaze?

[Zecryphon]

Appologetics, Church History, and most importantly: THE WORD! For some reason, we seem to think our teenagers don't need these things. We should be working a lot harder to equip them to face the world and each other and are falling down. The best way to work on Church growth and Evangelism is to train up the next generation in the tools necessary to do so.

Another problem (in all denominations) is that Americans are very willing to send money overseas and evangelize with missionaries, yet won't do so at home. The majority of Americans are un-churched and or non-Christian. That's pathetic for a country as influential as this one is. It's like letting one's own children starve so that they can feed poor children across town. People pay very close attention to what a congregation does, and almost none to what they say.

This raises a question that might be at the heart of the Ablaze! movement. How do you get young kids or teenagers interested in the Lutheran church, who aren't born into it? Simple. You institute Ablaze! Since you get rid of the confessions and the creeds and go more contemporary, that will appeal to kids and they'll flock to us. But of course, the downfall with this approach in ANY church, not just the Lutheran one, is that whatever you bring them in with, you have to keep them with as Todd Wilken has said on a few occasions. But what's interesting is that it seems young kids, teenagers, are getting tired of this contemporary approach to worship and are hungering for the true word of God, preached rightly. It's refreshing.

 

[Zecryphon]

Uh oh, don't tell Stude...he left the LCMS because of this. I do have to admit though besides the couches, projector screens, and praise band equipment, the stone altar looks super cool.

I, too left the LCMS for the WELS. This is most disappointing.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

I, too left the LCMS for the WELS. This is most disappointing.

I wish confessional Lutheranism was united, a lot of these problems would fix them selves with a stronger confessional presence in both bodies, but most specifically the LCMS. Merging the LCMS and WELS would really make those minority CW/CG congregations go uh oh...the WELS is here, time to join E-Free lol. That would really set those non-denom and Seminex pastors ablaze!

 

[RadMan]

LCMS/WELS------NOPE!
LCMS/ELCA------looking better and better all the time.

 

[LutherNut]

LCMS/WELS------NOPE!

Not in my lifetime. WELS would have to change too many things and I don't see them ever willing to do so.

LCMS/ELCA------looking better and better all the time.

Also not in my lifetime. The ELCA would have to change everything, and that is highly unlikely. Even the LCMS Ablaze isn't as far off the mark as the ELCA, doctrinally speaking.

What is more probable is a split (or a possible disintegration) of the LCMS. There are way too many factions in place. You've got the ultra-conservatives, like Herman Otten and his cronies, who do nothing but sling rocks from afar. You've got the moderates who think that everything is adiaphora and doesn't really matter. You've got the liberals, like Jesus First, who really belong in the ELCA since they don't believe in much of anything anyway. And then you've got the traditional confessionals who seem to be slipping into obscurity rather than taking a solid stand against these other "cults" within the synod.

With all that being said, however, I don't really see an alternative for true Lutherans in the US. (The jury is still out on the AALC for me.) Where the ELCA has slipped away from the Bible in one direction, the WELS has slipped away in the other direction. The LCMS (at least the congregations that still adhere to the official synodical standards) is still the best bet for Confessional Lutherans. It's just getting harder to find such a place anymore.

 

[Zecryphon]

I wish confessional Lutheranism was united, a lot of these problems would fix them selves with a stronger confessional presence in both bodies, but most specifically the LCMS. Merging the LCMS and WELS would really make those minority CW/CG congregations go uh oh...the WELS is here, time to join E-Free lol. That would really set those non-denom and Seminex pastors ablaze!

Believe it or not, I've been Evangelical Free too. When Christ drew me back to Himself, it was through the pastor of an Ev. Free church.

 

[Zecryphon]

WELS would have to change too many things and I don't see them ever willing to do so.

Just out of curiosity, why does the WELS have to change? Is there absolutely nothing wrong with the LCMS?

 

[seajoy]

Just out of curiosity, why does the WELS have to change? Is there absolutely nothing wrong with the LCMS?

My thoughts exactly.

 

[seajoy]

Where the ELCA has slipped away from the Bible in one direction, the WELS has slipped away in the other direction.

What, the WELS follows Scripture too much? I don't get this, LN. You and I are usually on the same page.

 

[LutherNut]

Just out of curiosity, why does the WELS have to change? Is there absolutely nothing wrong with the LCMS?

If you had read the post you would see where I stated that there is plenty wrong with the LCMS. Do you think the WELS is perfect??

 

[LutherNut]

What, the WELS follows Scripture too much?

Not at all.

I don't get this, LN. You and I are usually on the same page.

An example is that the WELS has equated man-made offices within the congregation with the one divinely instituted office of the Pastoral Ministry. The Scriptures make no such distinctions. In this case, the WELS has added to or altered what the Scriptures state on the matter.
Another is the change they made to their fellowship policies in 1960 equating every possible fellowship manifiestation as an act of worship. The Scripture makes no such distinctions on this matter either.

 

[Zecryphon]

If you had read the post you would see where I stated that there is plenty wrong with the LCMS. Do you think the WELS is perfect??

I read your post, twice in fact. It's just that that one statement struck me as a little high and mighty, that's all. Is the WELS perfect? I'll tell you the answer to that question when I'm officially a member. I've got 15 more weeks to go before that happens.

 

[LutherNut]

I read your post, twice in fact. It's just that that one statement struck me as a little high and mighty, that's all. Is the WELS perfect? I'll tell you the answer to that question when I'm officially a member. I've got 15 more weeks to go before that happens.

It's just that the WELS would have to step back from their fellowship policies of 1960, and I don't see that ever happening.

 

[Zecryphon]

Not at all.



An example is that the WELS has equated man-made offices within the congregation with the one divinely instituted office of the Pastoral Ministry. The Scriptures make no such distinctions. In this case, the WELS has added to or altered what the Scriptures state on the matter.
Another is the change they made to their fellowship policies in 1960 equating every possible fellowship manifiestation as an act of worship. The Scripture makes no such distinctions on this matter either.

I believe scripture does make a distinction on this. We are told to separate ourselves from false teachers in the scriptures. If the WELS believes that the LCMS is teaching falsely, then they have the Biblical grounds needed to remove themselves from fellowship with the LCMS. It seems the LCMS, in 1969, changed it's view on the scriptures regarding the role of women in the church.

Here is an excerpt from WELS and Other Lutherans by John F. Brug, Edward C. Fredrich II and Armin W. Schuetze:

For many years LCMS and WELS were also agreed in teaching that the Lord, however, at the time of creation had assigned specific roles to man and woman, a leadership or headship role to man and a helping and submitting role to woman. There was agreement that passages like 1 Corinthians 14:34: "Women should remain silent in the church. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says," and 1 Timothy 2:11-12: "Woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent," required that only men should serve as pastors and in leadership roles, and that consequently voting rights in the congregations should be restricted to the male members."

In 1969 the LCMS changed its position in regard to woman suffrage. Since then, women have not only been given the right to vote but have been placed into positions of authority including that of serving on the synod's board of directors. Only the office of the pastor, who is entrusted with the means of grace, is looked upon as prohibited to women in the above passages. Surveys, however, have indicated that a growing number of pastors and lay people also favor calling women as pastors.

Thus, the role of women in the church has become an issue between the two synods since 1961 when the separation occurred.

So who is really in error here as far as the scriptures are concerned, LN? The LCMS or the WELS? Or perhaps the better question is, who is holding to the scriptural teachings and who isn't?

 

[Zecryphon]

It's just that the WELS would have to step back from their fellowship policies of 1960, and I don't see that ever happening.

Why? As far as I can see, the WELS are adhering to the scriptures. Why do they need to step back from that? It's the LCMS who changed their policy to be more in line with the world in 1969.

 

[seajoy]

Guess I'm just a bit sensitive. The WELS and LCMS used to come together in this part of TCL (in our little corner of the world)....it's just not like that anymore. Always something to nit-pick about amongst the conservative/confessionals now. Makes it hard to want to come here. Don't know where I belong.

 

[Zecryphon]

Guess I'm just a bit sensitive. The WELS and LCMS used to come together in this part of TCL (in our little corner of the world)....it's just not like that anymore. Always something to nit-pick about amongst the conservative/confessionals now. Makes it hard to want to come here. Don't know where I belong.

You belong right where you are. Don't let somebody with a bone to pick with the WELS on apparently TWO issues, chase you out.

 

[seajoy]

You belong right where you are. Don't let somebody with a bone to pick with the WELS on apparently TWO issues, chase you out.

I'm just having a bad day....it's nobody's fault here. I should bow out of this thread, actually.

 

[RadMan]

Not at all.



An example is that the WELS has equated man-made offices within the congregation with the one divinely instituted office of the Pastoral Ministry. The Scriptures make no such distinctions. In this case, the WELS has added to or altered what the Scriptures state on the matter.
Another is the change they made to their fellowship policies in 1960 equating every possible fellowship manifiestation as an act of worship. The Scripture makes no such distinctions on this matter either.

Unfortunately you are correct about the man made offices being part of the "church". The so called "synod", according the WELS is part of the pastoral office. I've seen the distinction and can think that there could be more abuse from the elected and could be in worse shape than the LCMS in the future. But right now I see it as the lseeser of all evils.

AALC has been cleaning house so I'm not sure where they will stand in the future. THey had episodes like LCMS had in the 60s-70s.

 

[LutherNut]

Why? As far as I can see, the WELS are adhering to the scriptures. Why do they need to step back from that? It's the LCMS who changed their policy to be more in line with the world in 1969.

Fellowship with the WELS broke in 1961, which was 8 years before women's suffrage in the LCMS. So that wasn't the issue at all. The issue was that the WELS changed their fellowship policy in 1960. That is why fellowship broke. If they reverted back to their policies from prior to 1960, it would be a different story. It wasn't the LCMS that changed in 1960, it was the WELS.

Besides, those scriptural passages you quoted are in reference to the one divinely instituted office (which the WELS does not officially recognize, BTW), not man made offices. Congregation officers such as treasurers and stewardship chairmen and high school principals did not exist when the Scriptures were written. How could those passages apply to offices which didn't even exist? This shows that the WELS has added to what the Scriptures speak of. Last I knew, adding to the word of God was a no-no.