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Abandoning Darwinism: Three Scientists Discuss Why They Have

FrumiousBandersnatch

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how? do you agree with dawkins that even a single out of place fossil will falsify evolution for instance?
Falsification is not really the simple 'single out of place fossil' idea that Dawkins suggests - that's a much-abbreviated summary of what might potentially lead to a falsification. Popper himself acknowledged that a theory cannot be falsified in isolation, and, as Quine had earlier pointed out, theories are dependent on a structure of supporting assumptions, which are themselves potentially open to falsification. In practice, we generally don't see a single contradictory case falsifying a theory (for example, the OPERA faster-than-light neutrino anomaly), we see auxiliary assumptions being challenged (in the case of OPERA, it was the experimental assumptions that were challenged and demonstrated to be false).
 
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Astrophile

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How much would you pay to listen in on a conversation among computer scientist David Gelernter, philosopher of science Stephen Meyer, and mathematician David Berlinski, hosted by Peter Robinson from Stanford’s Hoover Institution?

I know, it's just too long for some people's attention span, they don't have time, etc.
For me, well I listened to the whole thing and found the arguments compelling, especially for Intelligent Design.

Abandoning Darwinism: Gelernter Talks with Meyer, Berlinski | Evolution News

I haven't listened to the whole thing, and I am not a biologist. However, I listened to short sections from different parts of the conversation, and three aspects of it seemed to me to be significant.

First, the speakers never say what parts of evolutionary biology they actually accept. They do not say whether they accept that species that cannot interbreed can be descended from a common ancestor, or whether, for example, cattle, sheep and goats, or swans, ducks and geese are descended from a common ancestor.

Second, the speakers never say how they interpret the scientific evidence. They do not say whether they accept that the changes in living things shown in the fossil record are real, and, in particular, whether the age of the Earth obtained from radiometric dating is valid. They never explain the biogeographic evidence, for example the diversity of marsupial mammals in Australia and the absence of indigenous placental mammals. They never discuss the genetic similarities and differences between living things, although this is now the strongest evidence for the common ancestry of all living things.

In view of the fact that most of the opposition to evolution comes from fundamentalist Christians, it seems strange that Mr. Robinson never touched on the religious beliefs of the three speakers or on their interpretations of the Bible, and how these interpretations influence their understanding of science. How old do these speakers think the Earth is? Do they think that Adam and Eve were real people? Do they accept or reject flood geology? What would young-Earth-creationists, who are well represented on these forums, think of the speakers' answers to these questions?
 
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Hank77

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I haven't listened to the whole thing, and I am not a biologist. However, I listened to short sections from different parts of the conversation, and three aspects of it seemed to me to be significant.

First, the speakers never say what parts of evolutionary biology they actually accept. They do not say whether they accept that species that cannot interbreed can be descended from a common ancestor, or whether, for example, cattle, sheep and goats, or swans, ducks and geese are descended from a common ancestor.

Second, the speakers never say how they interpret the scientific evidence. They do not say whether they accept that the changes in living things shown in the fossil record are real, and, in particular, whether the age of the Earth obtained from radiometric dating is valid. They never explain the biogeographic evidence, for example the diversity of marsupial mammals in Australia and the absence of indigenous placental mammals. They never discuss the genetic similarities and differences between living things, although this is now the strongest evidence for the common ancestry of all living things.

In view of the fact that most of the opposition to evolution comes from fundamentalist Christians, it seems strange that Mr. Robinson never touched on the religious beliefs of the three speakers or on their interpretations of the Bible, and how these interpretations influence their understanding of science. How old do these speakers think the Earth is? Do they think that Adam and Eve were real people? Do they accept or reject flood geology? What would young-Earth-creationists, who are well represented on these forums, think of the speakers' answers to these questions?
Thank you for your response. Sharing your thoughts.

Their belief in ID is all that they were discussing. To believe ID one does not have to believe the Bible or any particular religion so it's not really relevant to their discussion.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Thank you for your response. Sharing your thoughts.

Their belief in ID is all that they were discussing. To believe ID one does not have to believe the Bible or any particular religion so it's not really relevant to their discussion.
ID = biblical creationism.
 
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MaudDib

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I note how none of them are biologists.
This is a silly comment, do you need to be a biologist to understand that there is a difference between life and non life? That’s the hypothesis. And then, do you need to be a biologist to do the math? I think not. You have committed the genetic fallacy.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Your understanding of ID = poor.
Lol. It's quite evidently far superior to yours, so you should be careful about slinging that sort of derogatory accusation.

And before you embarrass yourself further please read the link I provided. If you still want to argue that ID is not biblical creationism after that, I'd suggest you take it up with Discovery Institute.
 
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pitabread

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Your understanding of ID = poor.

You might want to read up on the outcome of the Dover trial and the findings of the court with respect to ID: Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District - Wikipedia

This is a direct quote from the decision:

The proper application of both the endorsement and Lemon tests to the facts of this case makes it abundantly clear that the Board's ID Policy violates the Establishment Clause. In making this determination, we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents. (emphasis mine)​
 
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xianghua

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Falsification is not really the simple 'single out of place fossil' idea that Dawkins suggests

so first we see that dawkins is wrong. now can you tell me what kind of evidence should falsify evolution?
 
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Ophiolite

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Your understanding of ID = poor.
His understanding, as expressed, is concise and some might argue simplistic, but the Wedge Document demonstrates the understanding is accurate. On what basis do you reject, ignore, or reinterpret the Wedge Document?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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so first we see that dawkins is wrong. now can you tell me what kind of evidence should falsify evolution?
Dawkins was just repeating a popular simplification. To falsify evolution over deep time (so-called 'macroevolution') I suspect you'd actually need to definitively demonstrate that more than one of the multiple independent lines of evidence supporting it were incorrect. That would include fossils in the 'wrong' strata, but also showing that major elements of comparative anatomy, developmental embryology, phylogenetics, biogeography, etc., were somehow incorrect.

It could happen in principle, but it's as likely as flat-Earthers falsifying the 'round Earth' model.
 
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Speedwell

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Dawkins was just repeating a popular simplification. To falsify evolution over deep time (so-called 'macroevolution') I suspect you'd actually need to definitively demonstrate that more than one of the multiple independent lines of evidence supporting it were incorrect. That would include fossils in the 'wrong' strata, but also showing that major elements of comparative anatomy, developmental embryology, phylogenetics, biogeography, etc., were somehow incorrect.

It could happen in principle, but it's as likely as flat-Earthers falsifying the 'round Earth' model.
And even if it did happen all you would have is a falsified theory with no ready replacement. "Design" is not automatically the default.
 
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Strathos

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This is a silly comment, do you need to be a biologist to understand that there is a difference between life and non life? That’s the hypothesis. And then, do you need to be a biologist to do the math? I think not. You have committed the genetic fallacy.

It's silly to expect that experts in their field know more about it than those in unrelated fields?
 
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Hank77

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You might want to read up on the outcome of the Dover trial and the findings of the court with respect to ID: Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District - Wikipedia

This is a direct quote from the decision:

The proper application of both the endorsement and Lemon tests to the facts of this case makes it abundantly clear that the Board's ID Policy violates the Establishment Clause. In making this determination, we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents. (emphasis mine)​
Judges are qualified to determine that ID is not based on science?

we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not,

But biochemists are not qualified to determine that ID is based on science? e.g. Michael Behe
 
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Speedwell

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Judges are qualified to determine that ID is not based on science?

we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not,

But biochemists are not qualified to determine that ID is based on science? e.g. Michael Behe
It was in large part Behe's testimony which led to the Judge's decision.
 
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Hank77

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It's silly to expect that experts in their field know more about it than those in unrelated fields?
What about a biochemist?
Do you think that experts in other fields don't have the intelligence to learn from those that are experts in the relevant fields and apply that knowledge in ways in their own field to convince themselves?
 
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Hank77

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It was in large part Behe's testimony which led to the Judge's decision.
They determined that they knew more about biology and chemistry than Behe did.

The truth of the matter is that as far as the science goes they didn't and they shouldn't have made any determination based on that.
 
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pitabread

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Judges are qualified to determine that ID is not based on science?

That was (in part) the reason for the trial. The Dover area school board wanted to include an ID textbook in the school library and include a disclaimer about evolution at the beginning of science class.

If ID really were a legit science, do you think the ruling would have gone the way it did?

But biochemists are not qualified to determine that ID is based on science? e.g. Michael Behe

Behe was one of the witnesses in the trial. He had his opportunity to provide his testimony as such.
 
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Hank77

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If ID really were a legit science, do you think the ruling would have gone the way it did?
Yes, I do.
1. Darwinism has become so ingrained as a scientific fact that to think any other way brings condemnation and accusations of ignorance on anyone who dares to defy it.
2. ID even though it points out the weaknesses in Darwinism by the modern scientific knowledge of today it also points towards an intelligent designer/God/superior intelligence,...which is not allowed in the classroom today.

The way I see it, the science to explain the origins of life should be taught as - this is what we Know because of this.....and this is what we Don't Know because of this....
 
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