A Young - or Old Earth Age ?

[Quasar92]

First of all, in Gen.1:1, God created the heavens and the earth, but nowhere in the six day creation narrative do you find when they were created. The term create is not found again, until the fifth and sixth days, providing a possible clue as to the earth having been restored from an earlier age than our own that suffered destruction before Adam.

When reading Pr.8:24 [NIV], and you will find the earth stood at one time without oceans or water of any kind. But God set the boundaries of the oceans, so they would not overstep His command, by constantly over running the landfall coastlines, in vs 29. [A good look at the creation facts can be found in Pr.8:22-36]. Yet, in Gen,1:2, the earth stood completely in a flood of water, which evoked comments from both David, in Ps.24:2 and Peter in 2 Pet.3:5, that the world had been created from that water. But the fact is, Pr.8:24 and 29 reveal that was not the fact of the situation at all, as you can read from the Scriptures.

According to Gen.1:14-19, the fourth "day" of the creation, God made "two great lights," the sun and the moon. Now keep in mind, these are the "24 hour days," as understood by the terms God used when He created time itself, for the benefit of mankind, when the sun and the moon were created. Thus, the use of those "days" being 24 hours each is completely presumptuous and does not by any means equate into the literal time it took God to complete the six "days" of His creation.

For example, let's have a look at some of those stars He created in "Day" four, as follows:

In the King James Version of the Bible, Arcturus is mentioned twice in the Book of Job: "Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south." Job: 9:9

Arcturus was formed in the halo of the Milky Way and is an interloper in our neighborhood. It has been visible to the naked eye for only about half a million years. It will be a little closer in a few thousand years, but then will recede from our view in another half million years as it continues its journey on a different orbital path.


Orion, appearing as a fuzzy object in Orion's sword, the Orion Nebula is the most famous stellar nursery in the Galaxy. It is a cloud of gas and dust that has spawned a cluster containing more than 3,000 stars, the hottest of which make the nebula glow. Consequently, the Orion Nebula is visible to the unaided eye--despite a distance from Earth that most authorities put at 1,500 or 1,600 light-years.
But the true distance is much less than this, according to new work by Rob Jeffries at Keele University in England. He exploited the rotation of G (yellow), K (orange), and M (red) stars in the Orion Nebula cluster to deduce that they are only about 1,300 light-years distant.

According to Hillenbrand, the old distance to the Orion Nebula gave an age for its stars of slightly under 1 million years. The new distance, says Jeffries, raises the age by 70 percent, which means the Orion Nebula cluster is about 1.5 million years old.


The Pleiades also known as M45 or the Seven Sisters, is the name of an open cluster in the constellation of Taurus. It is among the nearest to the Earth of all open clusters, probably the best known and certainly the most striking to the naked eye. This asterism is sometimes referred to as the Maia Nebula, perhaps erroneously considering that the reflection nebulosity surrounding Maia is extrinsic.
The cluster is dominated by hot blue stars, which have formed within the last 100 million years. Dust that forms faint reflection nebulosity around the brightest stars was thought at first to be left over from the formation of the cluster but is now known to be an unrelated dust cloud that the stars are currently passing through. Astronomers estimate that the cluster will survive for about another 250 million years, when it will have dispersed due to gravitational interactions with the spiral arms of the galaxy and giant molecular clouds.


The above should provide sufficient evidence, in and of but only one "day," they could not have possible been only 24 hours.

This does not mean it changes a single thing in our belief in God's word. When you reflect on the above facts alone, we should all be able to clearly see how it would be for us trying to understand the mind of God, instead of the simple human way in how He described it.


Scriptural clues to an old earth age

The apostle Paul makes a couple of interesting comments about the ages. In Eph.2:7 he said:

"in order that in the coming ages He might show the incomparable riches of His grace, expressed in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus."

Then in Eph.3:9 he said this:

"and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things."

Let's have a look at what the apostle Paul might have been alluding to in the 'past ages' he referred to in Eph.3:9.

In Pr.8:22-25 [NIV] we are told: "I was appointed from eternity [The pre-incarnat spirit of Jesus], from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth," He was 'the Craftsman at the Father's side.' Pr.8:30.

Then a look at the next scenario we read in Gen.1:2: "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

There is evidence here that the earth had a flood before the creation of Adam. So we know there were two floods instead of just the one of Noah's time. See Ps.24:2 and 2 Pet.3:5.

Please note that Peter goes on to say in verse 6:

"By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed."

He is talking about the waters of the time God hovered over the surface of the deep. Not about Noah's flood. Peter made it clear, the world of that time was destroyed. That did not happen during Noah's flood as there was both human, animal and sea life preserved.

Note this also about the creation: Gen.1:1 said God created the heavens and the earth. There is no day of the six referred to later in which this event took place. The word create or created does not appear again - from Gen:1:1 until the fifth day when He created the creatures of the air and the sea. Then again on the sixth day when He created the animals and man. Everything else had been created previously and was restored.

That there was darkness described in Gen.1:2 - makes it clear, a cataclysmic event of volcanic action, meteor strikes upon the earth, etc., [All scientifically proven. Have a look at our moon for crater strikes] had the earth in utter darkeness. That God is all light with no darkness in Him - when He said let there be light - it was His own light, until he cleared the atmosphere enough for the sun, moon and stars to be seen from earth again on the fourth day.

References to the completion of one of God's days - that 'there was evening and there was morning,' by no means meant a 24 hour period of time. But rather that 1,000 years could have easily been in between both. See Ps.90:4 and 2 Pet.3:8. As for the 24 hour a day time frame we have - it didn't exist until God said, 'Let there be lights,' on the fourth day. So how could a 24 hour day exist until then?

We know that angels, cherubim, seraphim, Satan and the sons of God were all created before our present age. The sons of God (Gen.6:2 and 1:6, 2:1 and 38:7 are not angels - as the NIV mistranslates them - as angels were not given to procreate. Mt.22:30).

The term 'sons of God' is used in connection with all born again Christians in Jn.1:12; Rom.8:14; 2 Cor.6:18; Heb.2:10, 12:5; Jas.1:18 and 1 Jn.3:1. Depending upon the translation you may be reading - that passage could also read - 'children of God.'

This should explain a few of the Biblical facts pertaining to the very old age of the earth as well as the existence of dinosaurs and prehistoric animal fossils found since the middle of the 19th century.



Quasar92

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I believe in the gap theory. So, I will just read. This is a good topic.

 

[Tolworth John]

Jesus said that adam was from the begining of creation. that is there were no long ages before Adams creation.

When measuring the age of a rock, how does one determine how much of the parent radioactive material was present when the rock was formed and how much of the daughter material was present?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

God stretched out the heavens
original post here...

Actually, Genesis 1 totally disproves all OEC arguments and most YEC theology.
Taking the Word of God as it actually is written:
There were no heavens "out there" on day one. There was no earth/dry land here, on day 1.
There was only one vast globe of water and the powers of them, and the powers of the "light" brought to "be" on day 1.
The light brought into being on day 1 is the powers of the "electric" creation/ universe.

There were no heavens stretched out and nothing "out there" until day 2, when the "firmament of His powers" were stretched out, in stories/layers, "between the divided in two waters" of this created globe. Half the waters are above the stretched out firmament, and half below, still.
He named the powers "two waters"/sha-mayim, translated "heavens".

The sun is not a star, in the Word of God, and is, in the Word of God, the "Menorrah/candelabra" of the universe, made on day 4 of creation week to be the light governor, which gathers the light and refracts it back out to the entire heavens.

Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam, visited the temple of God in heaven, and it was built of cut [diamond] crystals and pillars of fire. plasma is a product of the light refracted to the cut crystal sun, and the pillars of fire are tremendous, reaching out to great distances from the "core"/the temple/the sun. Enoch wrote that the sun and moon are the same size, so the pillars of fire do extend to great distances out from the core of the Temple of God, as plasma, from the light conducted from the stars.
The stars are not vast furnaces of fire, but do conduct the light brought into being on day 1, to the sun. The universe is not so great of a distance as "science" guesses, but is not measurable with the measures of man from earth, and the powers of the firmament are taken by them to be "distance", when in fact, it is "powers".

Stars are also living beings, called angels. All angels are not stars, but all stars are angels. The planets are wandering stars, with no light of their own to conduct, and the earth is not a planet, does not wander, and is fixed in place -but will jump about as a hunted roe in the tribulation, and turn upside down, and the seasons will be backwards then, and earthquakes and winds and pillars of fire [volcano eruptions] caused by the turning upside down of the earth will make men's hearts melt for the fear of the things coming....much more is in the word of God about that time. Stars will fall to the earth from whence the heavens were stretched out from, in that time.
When the heavens are rolled up as a scroll and the new creation is brought into being, it will be the same created elements regenerated as it was in the beginning, but all made new; and it will happen in the blink of an eye, just like our change will, either at the rapture of our bodies from the grave or the rapture of our alive and remaining bodies at His call to be gathered together with Him.

The "circle of the earth" which God sits upon -in His created throne in His created heavens- is the "revolving heavens", which God set to revolving around the earth when He said; "Let there be light", and the light was brought into being "right here", separated from the dark, as part of the created globe of water out of which elements of, He brought into being every created thing in heaven and in earth; and the heavens revolved around the globe from the beginning, and the night and day were made to equal "one Day".

Study with eyes to see what it says, but discard tradition and take it as Truth, not allegory, and you will be amazed at the deception veiling the eyes of fallen man! "

 

[BABerean2]

First of all, in Gen.1:1, God created the heavens and the earth, but nowhere in the six day creation narrative do you find when they were created. The term create is not found again, until the fifth and sixth days, providing a possible clue as to the earth having been restored from an earlier age than our own that suffered destruction before Adam.

When reading Pr.8:24 [NIV], and you will find the earth stood at one time without oceans or water of any kind. But God set the boundaries of the oceans, so they would not overstep His command, by constantly over running the landfall coastlines, in vs 29. [A good look at the creation facts can be found in Pr.8:22-36]. Yet, in Gen,1:2, the earth stood completely in a flood of water, which evoked comments from both David, in Ps.24:2 and Peter in 2 Pet.3:5, that the world had been created from that water. But the fact is, Pr.8:24 and 29 reveal that was not the fact of the situation at all, as you can read from the Scriptures.

According to Gen.1:14-19, the fourth "day" of the creation, God made "two great lights," the sun and the moon. Now keep in mind, these are the "24 hour days," as understood by the terms God used when He created time itself, for the benefit of mankind, when the sun and the moon were created. Thus, the use of those "days" being 24 hours each is completely presumptuous and does not by any means equate into the literal time it took God to complete the six "days" of His creation.

For example, let's have a look at some of those stars He created in "Day" four, as follows:

In the King James Version of the Bible, Arcturus is mentioned twice in the Book of Job: "Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south." Job: 9:9

Arcturus was formed in the halo of the Milky Way and is an interloper in our neighborhood. It has been visible to the naked eye for only about half a million years. It will be a little closer in a few thousand years, but then will recede from our view in another half million years as it continues its journey on a different orbital path.


Orion, appearing as a fuzzy object in Orion's sword, the Orion Nebula is the most famous stellar nursery in the Galaxy. It is a cloud of gas and dust that has spawned a cluster containing more than 3,000 stars, the hottest of which make the nebula glow. Consequently, the Orion Nebula is visible to the unaided eye--despite a distance from Earth that most authorities put at 1,500 or 1,600 light-years.
But the true distance is much less than this, according to new work by Rob Jeffries at Keele University in England. He exploited the rotation of G (yellow), K (orange), and M (red) stars in the Orion Nebula cluster to deduce that they are only about 1,300 light-years distant.

According to Hillenbrand, the old distance to the Orion Nebula gave an age for its stars of slightly under 1 million years. The new distance, says Jeffries, raises the age by 70 percent, which means the Orion Nebula cluster is about 1.5 million years old.


The Pleiades also known as M45 or the Seven Sisters, is the name of an open cluster in the constellation of Taurus. It is among the nearest to the Earth of all open clusters, probably the best known and certainly the most striking to the naked eye. This asterism is sometimes referred to as the Maia Nebula, perhaps erroneously considering that the reflection nebulosity surrounding Maia is extrinsic.
The cluster is dominated by hot blue stars, which have formed within the last 100 million years. Dust that forms faint reflection nebulosity around the brightest stars was thought at first to be left over from the formation of the cluster but is now known to be an unrelated dust cloud that the stars are currently passing through. Astronomers estimate that the cluster will survive for about another 250 million years, when it will have dispersed due to gravitational interactions with the spiral arms of the galaxy and giant molecular clouds.


The above should provide sufficient evidence, in and of but only one "day," they could not have possible been only 24 hours.

This does not mean it changes a single thing in our belief in God's word. When you reflect on the above facts alone, we should all be able to clearly see how it would be for us trying to understand the mind of God, instead of the simple human way in how He described it.


Scriptural clues to an old earth age

The apostle Paul makes a couple of interesting comments about the ages. In Eph.2:7 he said:

"in order that in the coming ages He might show the incomparable riches of His grace, expressed in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus."

Then in Eph.3:9 he said this:

"and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things."

Let's have a look at what the apostle Paul might have been alluding to in the 'past ages' he referred to in Eph.3:9.

In Pr.8:22-25 [NIV] we are told: "I was appointed from eternity [The pre-incarnat spirit of Jesus], from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth," He was 'the Craftsman at the Father's side.' Pr.8:30.

Then a look at the next scenario we read in Gen.1:2: "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

There is evidence here that the earth had a flood before the creation of Adam. So we know there were two floods instead of just the one of Noah's time. See Ps.24:2 and 2 Pet.3:5.

Please note that Peter goes on to say in verse 6:

"By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed."

He is talking about the waters of the time God hovered over the surface of the deep. Not about Noah's flood. Peter made it clear, the world of that time was destroyed. That did not happen during Noah's flood as there was both human, animal and sea life preserved.

Note this also about the creation: Gen.1:1 said God created the heavens and the earth. There is no day of the six referred to later in which this event took place. The word create or created does not appear again - from Gen:1:1 until the fifth day when He created the creatures of the air and the sea. Then again on the sixth day when He created the animals and man. Everything else had been created previously and was restored.

That there was darkness described in Gen.1:2 - makes it clear, a cataclysmic event of volcanic action, meteor strikes upon the earth, etc., [All scientifically proven. Have a look at our moon for crater strikes] had the earth in utter darkeness. That God is all light with no darkness in Him - when He said let there be light - it was His own light, until he cleared the atmosphere enough for the sun, moon and stars to be seen from earth again on the fourth day.

References to the completion of one of God's days - that 'there was evening and there was morning,' by no means meant a 24 hour period of time. But rather that 1,000 years could have easily been in between both. See Ps.90:4 and 2 Pet.3:8. As for the 24 hour a day time frame we have - it didn't exist until God said, 'Let there be lights,' on the fourth day. So how could a 24 hour day exist until then?

We know that angels, cherubim, seraphim, Satan and the sons of God were all created before our present age. The sons of God (Gen.6:2 and 1:6, 2:1 and 38:7 are not angels - as the NIV mistranslates them - as angels were not given to procreate. Mt.22:30).

The term 'sons of God' is used in connection with all born again Christians in Jn.1:12; Rom.8:14; 2 Cor.6:18; Heb.2:10, 12:5; Jas.1:18 and 1 Jn.3:1. Depending upon the translation you may be reading - that passage could also read - 'children of God.'

This should explain a few of the Biblical facts pertaining to the very old age of the earth as well as the existence of dinosaurs and prehistoric animal fossils found since the middle of the 19th century.



Quasar92

I hope you can survive the shock of learning that I agree with much of this post.

There is no place in scripture which says the earth is 6,000 years old.

We lose a lot of young people by trying to force the age of the earth into a timeline of 6,000 years.

There is also the fact that time is not a constant.
Time varies with a person's relative velocity.

.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I hope you can survive the shock of learning that I agree with much of this post.

There is no place in scripture which says the earth is 6,000 years old.

We lose a lot of young people by trying to force the age of the earth into a timeline of 6,000 years.

There is also the fact that time is not a constant.
Time varies with a person's relative velocity.

.

That's OK that you don't agree with all of it, but you'll come around some day, either here or there..
I disagree that young people are lost because of the Truth of the Word of God against the fables of men, but they are lost because the "church" is not preaching with the power and authority of God, in signs and wonders, proving that the Resurrected Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
I do not recognize any relationship in the western church of today and the Church established in the book of acts, but I do recognize it in other nations, like China, in the power God has given to His called apostles, like Brother Yun, who is an apostle in the same way that the early Church apostles were.

I attended a water baptism of a closely related person a short time ago, who is a new Believer, and though the church that one is attending is as good as any offered in the west, that I know of, at this time, it falls short of the power and authority of the Church Jesus has established, and depends on "words".
We are not saved by learning the right words, but by a revelation of Jesus Christ to our hearts that is unshakable when the lies start flowing.
The relative was saved by Jesus, and that is where it is convenient for that one to go, and I thank God for that one whom I began praying for almost three decades ago [a step relation, with no Bible teaching at all], finding a place to fellowship, but my heart is grieved for the loss of authority and power in the western Churches, and so long to see revival as there should be, in these last days.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I hope you can survive the shock of learning that I agree with much of this post.

There is no place in scripture which says the earth is 6,000 years old.

We lose a lot of young people by trying to force the age of the earth into a timeline of 6,000 years.

There is also the fact that time is not a constant.
Time varies with a person's relative velocity.

.

Agree!

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Scripture gives the exact age of the earth.
Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born. Adam was 1 day old on the 7th day of the creation week of normal evenings and mornings.
One can do the chronology of creation from day 1 by figuring up the ages as they are given in the Tenach, up to the time of the dispersion, and after that, history is easy to find the records of.
As to the chronology of the earth by the ages of the patriarchs when they bore the line from Seth to Moses, to the time of the going in to the promised land, it is laid out in the Book of Jasher.
God counts the anniversary of the creation from fall equinox.
That is also two days before the anniversary of Adam's creation, for the sun was made on day four of creation week, and established in the heavens at fall equinox.

 

[LastSeven]

I think the earth is young because death came into the world through Adam which means even dinosaurs could not have died before Adam, which means dinosaurs lived with man which means scientists have no idea what they're taking about.

 

[BABerean2]

Scripture gives the exact age of the earth.
Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born. Adam was 1 day old on the 7th day of the creation week of normal evenings and mornings.
One can do the chronology of creation from day 1 by figuring up the ages as they are given in the Tenach, up to the time of the dispersion, and after that, history is easy to find the records of.
As to the chronology of the earth by the ages of the patriarchs when they bore the line from Seth to Moses, to the time of the going in to the promised land, it is laid out in the Book of Jasher.
God counts the anniversary of the creation from fall equinox.
That is also two days before the anniversary of Adam's creation, for the sun was made on day four of creation week, and established in the heavens at fall equinox.

Mystery of Time: Moody Institute of Science

.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Mystery of Time:

Thanks. I had several of the Moody Science videos when homeschooling our kids, and passed them around to others, "back in the day".
But as to this present creation, God told us how to measure the days from the beginning.
BTW, He has several clocks running in the heavens, measuring off time in this present creation.

 

[BABerean2]

Thanks. I had several of the Moody Science videos when homeschooling our kids, and passed them around to others, "back in the day".
But as to this present creation, God told us how to measure the days from the beginning.
BTW, He has several clocks running in the heavens, measuring off time in this present creation.

On which day of creation did Satan fall?

Please provide the scripture for us.

Did Adam age before the fall?

Were the Laws of Thermodynamics the same before the fall?

.

 

[Quasar92]

God stretched out the heavens
original post here...

Actually, Genesis 1 totally disproves all OEC arguments and most YEC theology.
Taking the Word of God as it actually is written:
There were no heavens "out there" on day one. There was no earth/dry land here, on day 1.
There was only one vast globe of water and the powers of them, and the powers of the "light" brought to "be" on day 1.
The light brought into being on day 1 is the powers of the "electric" creation/ universe.

There were no heavens stretched out and nothing "out there" until day 2, when the "firmament of His powers" were stretched out, in stories/layers, "between the divided in two waters" of this created globe. Half the waters are above the stretched out firmament, and half below, still.
He named the powers "two waters"/sha-mayim, translated "heavens".

The sun is not a star, in the Word of God, and is, in the Word of God, the "Menorrah/candelabra" of the universe, made on day 4 of creation week to be the light governor, which gathers the light and refracts it back out to the entire heavens.

Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam, visited the temple of God in heaven, and it was built of cut [diamond] crystals and pillars of fire. plasma is a product of the light refracted to the cut crystal sun, and the pillars of fire are tremendous, reaching out to great distances from the "core"/the temple/the sun. Enoch wrote that the sun and moon are the same size, so the pillars of fire do extend to great distances out from the core of the Temple of God, as plasma, from the light conducted from the stars.
The stars are not vast furnaces of fire, but do conduct the light brought into being on day 1, to the sun. The universe is not so great of a distance as "science" guesses, but is not measurable with the measures of man from earth, and the powers of the firmament are taken by them to be "distance", when in fact, it is "powers".

Stars are also living beings, called angels. All angels are not stars, but all stars are angels. The planets are wandering stars, with no light of their own to conduct, and the earth is not a planet, does not wander, and is fixed in place -but will jump about as a hunted roe in the tribulation, and turn upside down, and the seasons will be backwards then, and earthquakes and winds and pillars of fire [volcano eruptions] caused by the turning upside down of the earth will make men's hearts melt for the fear of the things coming....much more is in the word of God about that time. Stars will fall to the earth from whence the heavens were stretched out from, in that time.
When the heavens are rolled up as a scroll and the new creation is brought into being, it will be the same created elements regenerated as it was in the beginning, but all made new; and it will happen in the blink of an eye, just like our change will, either at the rapture of our bodies from the grave or the rapture of our alive and remaining bodies at His call to be gathered together with Him.

The "circle of the earth" which God sits upon -in His created throne in His created heavens- is the "revolving heavens", which God set to revolving around the earth when He said; "Let there be light", and the light was brought into being "right here", separated from the dark, as part of the created globe of water out of which elements of, He brought into being every created thing in heaven and in earth; and the heavens revolved around the globe from the beginning, and the night and day were made to equal "one Day".

Study with eyes to see what it says, but discard tradition and take it as Truth, not allegory, and you will be amazed at the deception veiling the eyes of fallen man! "

Was There Life BEFORE Adam ?

Many Christians today believe as an article of faith that the Bible teaches the earth was created 6,000 years ago. They dispute all the evidence of geology, paleontology and radiometric dating techniques. They argue that such evidence is invalid, grossly misunderstood, and misinterpreted. Some Neo-Creationists claim that all the earth's strata was due to the Noachian deluge, or the original process of Creation. They claim all Creation took place during a six day period approximately 6,000 years ago. What is the truth?

The Bible is a reliable historical witness. However, the Bible nowhere says Creation occurred 6,000 years ago. Nor does it teach that the earth is flat, although Medieval theologians often assumed so and threatened anyone who would teach otherwise with excommunication and torture. The Middle Ages were a sad time in theological history. The supposedly enlightened Church pressured scientists such as Bruno and Galileo with the threat of bodily harm if they chose to believe the earth revolved around the sun.

Biologist George Simpson was right when he observed, "As a matter of fact, most of the dogmatic religions have exhibited a perverse talent for taking the WRONG SIDE on the most important concepts of the material universe" (George Gaylord Simpson, This View of Life, p. 214).

Irrational Theology

Catholic theologians made a great mistake in the Middle Ages. They assumed the Scriptures taught things about the material universe which were, in fact, false interpretations or assumptions. Perhaps for the masses, it was enough to listen to and believe dogmas with the stamped sanction of "Church authority." But for THINKING men, "Renaissance Man," for scientists who wished us to "prove all things," as the Scriptures themselves tell us to do (I Thessalonians 5:21), mere recitation of Church authority or tradition was not enough.

One author characterizes the problem this way: "The emotionally precious view of earth's centrality in a fixed, unchanging universe was crystallized by Ptolemy in the second century A.D., and then taken over by the Christian (i.e., Catholic) Church. What had been ancient pagan punishments for contradicting pagan theology became orthodox Christian punishments for questioning orthodox Christian dogma. Despite man's continued secret probing, fourteen centuries brought no serious challenger" (Robert Gorney, The Human Agenda, p. 27).

In 1543 Copernicus published his theory of a heliocentric solar system. Although he was a Catholic priest, his theory met with strong opposition from the established Church. In 1600 Giordano Bruno, who endorsed Copernicus' theory, was burned alive at the stake in Rome for his stubborn heretical beliefs, among which was the heliocentric solar system!

Galileo Galilei observed in 1604 that Copernicus had been right. Through the telescope, he observed that the earth and other planets DO revolve around the sun.

But the clerics of that day did not agree. Martin Luther lambasted the heliocentric or sun-centered solar system. He reasoned that since Joshua had commanded the sun to stand still, it must have been the sun which was moving around the earth. One archbishop of the Catholic Church lampooned the followers of Galileo with a Scriptural pun: "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into the heavens?" he asked, quoting Acts 1:11 in the New Testament.

During the Inquisition, the Catholic Church resisted the pressures of rational thinking men with the pronouncement: "If earth is a planet, and only one among several planets, it cannot be that any such great things have been done specially for it as Christian doctrine teaches. If there are other planets, since God makes nothing in vain, they must be inhabited; but how can their inhabitants be descended from Adam? How can they trace their origin to Noah's ark? How can they have been redeemed by the Saviour?" (Ibid., p. 28).

Galileo's theory was branded by the Church as "of all heresies the most abominable, the most pernicious, the most scandalous."

During the Middle Ages when ecclesiastical authority reigned supreme, the science of geology was attacked as "a dark art," as "infernal artillery," and as "calculated to tear up in the public mind every remaining attachment to Christianity" (P. 53). When scientists accumulated data to show the earth is far older than Archbishop Ussher's date of 4004 B.C., they were vigorously assailed as "infidels," as "atheists," and "heretics."

Archbishop Ussher had concluded from his studies of the Bible that Creation must have been October 23, 4004 B.C. When fossil evidence was unearthed to indicate the earth was far older than that, the fossils were dismissed by some Church leaders as deliberate deceptions of the devil!

Unfortunately, some of this Medieval thinking still exists, today. Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler, Newton -- these men were willing to challenge the dogmas of their day. They were called buffoons, they were labeled heretics, they were held up to shame and contempt by ecclesiastical authorities. But they advanced the cause of TRUTH.

Today, too, we must at times take up shield and sword of the mind and spirit and CHALLENGE the Goliaths of modern dogma and conventional orthodoxy.

We must remember the impassioned words of Oliver Cromwell, ruler of England centuries ago, when he said: "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

Blinders On Their Eyes

Why is it that people sometimes insist upon wearing blinders upon their eyes? Why won't they READ, STUDY, LEARN, COMPARE, CHALLENGE, and "PROVE ALL THINGS," holding in abeyance things which they cannot prove one way or another? Why do people insist upon dogmas? The attitudes of many people is like the nervous captain of a ship lowering the anchor down to twenty feet, and then assuming that it must have reached bottom, because that's all the line left on the anchor!

In 1832 citizens of Lancaster, Pennsylvania refused to allow their schoolhouse to be used for a discussion about railroads. They said: "Railroads are impossible and a great infidelity. If God had intended that his intelligent creatures should travel at the frightful speed of 17 miles an hour by steam he would have foretold it in the Holy Prophets. Such things as railroads are devices of Satan to lead immortal souls down to hell."

Some religious people, today, still ascribe the entire geologic record to the Flood of Noah's time. Theologians used to turn to the Flood to explain the effects of erosion, mountain building, volcanism, and fossil remains. In the infancy of geological science, such a tendency could be well understood, and even pardoned. But, today, after TONS of geologic evidence, it seems strange that some religious folk still cling to the out-dated, antiquarian notions of the pre-scientific age. In order to rigorously cling to their notions of the Flood and a shortened chronology of the earth, they reject almost all the evidence of 150 years of geological investigation!

But we should not condemn them too strongly, because on the other side of the fence we have the Neo-Darwinian evolutionists and the school of anti-catastrophism -- those MUDDLE-HEADED GEOLOGISTS and PALEONTOLOGISTS who have been BRAINWASHED to the exact opposite conclusion. That is, they stand on "uniformitarian" geology, and will not admit to any earthshaking, global catastrophes in the past. They discount ALL human testimony, all traditions, all legends from around the world; they IGNORE or attempt to explain away all evidence of a geological nature which supports any kind of catastrophism. Uniformitarian theory has, for all practical purposes, become to them ANOTHER RELIGION.

What we see, then, is dogmatic individuals with BLINDERS on clinging to two opposing viewpoints, neither of which is right, neither of which is supported by the facts. Both unwilling to compromise, adamant in their authority, staunch in their belief. BOTH interpreting the evidence to fit their own theory.

I take issue with both the neo-Creationists who REFUSE to accept the evidence of an earth which has existed for millions of years, and also with the neo-Darwinists who REFUSE to admit the striking geological evidence for Creation.

Why does it seem so difficult for people to obtain a balance? Why do we humans become so emotionally involved with a particular belief, afraid, nervous, fearful and glandular? Emotional attachment to a false world concept, or fable, is a DANGEROUS thing. It is a little like falling in love with the wrong person -- it hurts.

Infatuation with a false belief or theory can hurt just as bad as romantic infatuation. After the honeymoon, the young couple have to deal with reality. If they were hasty, and rushed into marriage with the wrong person, the trauma and life long pain and regret can be considerable. Even so, if you have clung to out-moded beliefs, or concepts which are not really in the Scriptures, unlearning that false "knowledge" can be difficult and painful at times. It is much more difficult to unlearn false beliefs than to learn something right the first time!

So it is with geology and the existence of the world before Adam's time.

Overwhelming Evidence

All the geological and paleontological evidence PROVES beyond the slightest scintilla of a doubt that THERE WAS A WORLD BEFORE ADAM. Most of the dating techniques of scientists -- uranium-argon, potassium-thorium, racemization and thermaluminescence -- as well as observation and logic conclusively show that the rocks under our feet, the bones of ancient animals, and even the charcoal campfires of Paleo-Indians, Neanderthal man, and other ancient hominid remains, are MUCH OLDER than 6,000 years. There was a world before Adam. In fact, there were MANY ages before Adam, and these ages can be carefully distinguished through the study of paleontology, paleo-ecology, and related scientific disciplines.

The evidence is INDISPUTABLE. Many independent dating techniques demonstrate that various hominid creatures lived about 500,000 years ago. More primitive types lived as long ago as 1-2,000,000 years. Those creatures, in some cases, were FAMILIAR with fire, used crude chipped stone tools such as hand axes, notched and saw-toothed implements, scrapers, engravers. They were PRE-ADAMIC CREATURES living in a PRE-ADAMIC WORLD. A world which ended in a great catastrophe.

And before their time, OTHER worlds existed. The world of the dinosaurs ended about 70,000,000 years ago. That world, too, ended in a cosmic catastrophe.

The pre-Adamic world was a world of growth, change, and progress. It was a world where new life forms were introduced from time to time.

The fact that this world has been in existence for many millions of years is no longer a matter for debate. It is academic. Any serious author, today, must face squarely the many indications of time found in the geological record.

Neo-Creationists believe we must choose either the Bible or science, particularly scientific dating methods. One typical Neo-Creationist argues:

"The Bible-believing scientist must face squarely the question, In the area of natural science which shall supersede, the clear assertions of God's inspired Book, or modern man's interpretation of what he thinks he sees in nature?"

This particular author continues: "According to Bible chronology only a few thousand years have passed since the creation of the ancestors of our modern plants and animals...Contrariwise, if one accepts the assumption that the inorganic radioisotope clocks were reset wherever they became associated with fossil-bearing material, then apparently at least 600 million years have passed since plants and animals first appeared successively from that time over a duration of some 600 million years" (Frank Lewis Marsh, Life, Man and Time, pp. 67-68).

The truth is, there is NO CONTRADICTION between the Biblical record and scientific knowledge of the earth's past. Those who wish to uphold the Bible in the face of new evidence regarding early hominids, homo erectus, homo habilis, or other discoveries of Primitive Man-like creatures, need not worry. There is NO EVIDENCE that such creatures evolved into Modern man. Rather, they lived long ago in a world BEFORE ADAM WAS CREATED -- another world -- another age -- another time.

Such discoveries tell us much about the ancient history of the earth. They tell us nothing, one way or the other, about the Scriptures.

Creation and Recreation

In the pages of Genesis, as it relates to the original creation of the universe, we read the simple, matter-of-fact statement: "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1, King James Version). The Amplified Bible renders this verse: "In the beginning God (prepared, formed, fashioned,) and created the heavens and the earth." The Good News Bible states: "In the beginning, when God created the universe..." The Moffatt Translation: "When God began to form the universe..." The Goodspeed Translation: "When God began to create the heavens and the earth..."

What exactly does the book of Genesis tell us? That YEHOVAH God created the universe -- the heavens and the earth -- in a period of time called, simply, "the beginning." How long ago that primeval creation occurred we are not told anywhere in the Scripture. To determine that, YEHOVAH God has given us brains and intellect!

That time of beginning could well have been six to ten billion years ago. Astronomers calculate that a "Big Bang" took place at that time, out of which the entire cosmos was created.

Verse two of Genesis, chapter one, continues:

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" (King James Version).

Is this verse describing the ORIGINAL creation as being formless and void? If so, it would seem a contradiction. Verse one tells us YEHOVAH created the heavens and the earth. When YEHOVAH creates something, it is beautiful, grand, and majestic. In the 38th chapter of the book of Job, we read:

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof? When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (vs. 4-7).

If the original earth had been created a chaotic ruin, formless and void, the angels would not have "sang together" or have "shouted for joy."

Isaiah 45:18 adds more light on this enigmatic passage. The prophet declares: "For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else" (King James Version).

The Hebrew word translated "vain" here is tohu and means "to lie waste," "a desolation," "a desert." It can also be translated "confusion," "empty place," "without form," "nothing," "wilderness." It is the very same word used in Genesis 1:2, where we read the earth "was without form."

One place says YEHOVAH God created the earth and it "was without form"; in another place we read YEHOVAH did not create the earth "without form." Is this a contradiction? Not at all!

The KEY to understanding this apparently complex problem lies in the little word "was." It can also be translated "BECAME." In fact, in Genesis 19:16 it is translated "became." We read: "And Lot's wife became a pillar of salt."

What happened, then, is this: When YEHOVAH God originally created the earth, it was indeed a lovely place. He created it with no waste, no wilderness, no desolation. It was inhabited. The angels leaped for joy, and shouted with admiration and enthusiasm when they beheld the primeval earth.

But then something happened. It became "tohu" -- that is, waste, a ruin, a desolation. The original earth suffered a great cataclysm -- a cosmic catastrophe. The Hebrew words translated "without form and void" in Genesis 1:2 literally mean a desolation, a wilderness, an empty, uninhabited ruin. These words, tohu and bohu are very strong words and denote CATASTROPHE. They strongly suggest that some sort of primeval cataclysm, or several such cataclysms, occurred.

Destruction!

Paroxysm!

Chaos!

Scripture gives no data for determining HOW LONG AGO the universe was created. And in the first chapter of Genesis, it only records THREE creative acts: 1) the heavens and the earth (verse 1); 2) new animal life (verses 20-21); and 3) human life, Adam and Eve (verses 26-27). The first creative act referred to the DATELESS PAST. The creation of NEW forms of animal life, and Adam and Eve, occurred approximately 6,000 YEARS AGO. Obviously, then, the first chapter of Genesis is not describing the original creation of the heavens and earth as occurring in seven consecutive days.

After the chaos and destruction which occurred, in verse two of Genesis one, YEHOVAH God began a process of re-creation, reconstruction, if you please, which lasted for seven days. Verse 16 of Genesis one does NOT describe the sun and moon and stars being created on the fourth day. How could light have been created on the first day, but the sun and stars which IMPART LIGHT not till the fourth day? The original Hebrew for "made" in verse 16 actually means "made to appear, made visible." The sun and moon were created "in the beginning." The light came from the sun, of course, but the VAPOR in the earth's atmosphere diffused the light. After the great cataclysm, the earth was cut off from the light of the sun, moon and stars. Darkness prevailed everywhere. As verse two says: "And the earth was (BECAME) without form and void (TOHU and BOHU); and DARKNESS was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

What do we see then? An earth destroyed, in pitch darkness, covered by water, the continents submerged, due to some great cataclysm.

During the process of RECONSTRUCTION or RE-CREATION, YEHOVAH God first caused the light from the sun to penetrate the atmosphere once again, in a DIFFUSED manner (Genesis 1:3-5), allowing day and night to become discernible. He created order in the atmosphere (verses 6-8). He caused the dry land to appear once again (verse 10). He caused the earth to once again bring forth life, plants, vegetation, of all kinds. As the turgid clouds and atmospheric disturbances cleared away, He caused the sun, moon and stars to once again become visible from the earth's surface (verses 14-18).

Then, having REFASHIONED the surface of the earth, and having prepared it, YEHOVAH created NEW living creatures -- NEW animal life of all kinds, from great whales to small fish, from elephants to rodents, from flying birds to flying fish and insects -- to REPOPULATE the earth, and to REPLENISH it (verses 20-25).

Something had happened to the Pre-Adamic earth. It had been overwhelmed in a MIGHTY CATASTROPHE, or a long series of catastrophes, which is briefly described in verse 2 of Genesis chapter 1.

But what happened?

The world before Adam came to an ABRUPT, screeching end. It was cut short by flooding and upheaval, stroke upon stroke of catastrophe. This one short enigmatic, much misunderstood verse of the Bible, contains within its cryptic message a story that will amaze you. This one little verse may hold a CLUE as to what happened to the earth, after the original time when it was created, beautiful, and to be "inhabited," and before the time of Adam and Eve, when it had to be refashioned, reshaped, refurbished, and rebuilt.

This one verse, in essence, may cover a time span of MILLIONS of years. If YEHOVAH God originally created the earth six to ten billion years ago, and over millions of years created VARIOUS and sundry life forms, causing them to become buried in massive burials to form deposits of coal, peat, and oil and natural gas; if He spent millions of years preparing the world for the eventual time when He would create Man IN HIS OWN IMAGE [not some amorphous BLOB]; who are we to complain?

Vast Periods of Time?

Vast periods of time, and many successive ecological niches, had to exist in the earth, for algal reefs of hundreds of feet to grow in place. Much time was required for vast quantities of vegetation to live, grow, and die, and to become entombed, to create vast deposits of coal in Kansas, Oklahoma, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, West Virginia and Pennsylvania.

This vast period of time YEHOVAH put to good use.

As Robert Macdonald shows, in a paper entitled Geology:

"The fossil record contains hundreds of zones, each with its own particular faunal assemblage. What is the chance that such an invariant worldwide sequence of life forms could be built up if they all lived CONTEMPORANEOUSLY, and the sequence in which they are found were only a burial order? How could a burial order based not on water sorting, but on environments do the job?...

"Suppose that in a worldwide catastrophe, one group of organisms were brought in from one area and deposited, then another assemblage from another area were deposited on top of that, and so on. A local sequence of life forms would be built up. But the chances would be against the deposition of fossils in the same order in a local sequence in another area. Consider the chance that the same order would occur in all sequences worldwide. It would be NIL!

"There is NO WAY to account for the sequence in faunal succession by ONE catastrophe. Nor is there any way to account for this sequence by a SERIES of catastrophes, or by a LONG DRAWN-OUT catastrophe. If all these Paleozoic and Mesozoic organisms were contemporaneous, there would inevitably have been some mixing of early and late forms.

"The ONLY explanation is that each geologic horizon does indeed represent a DIFFERENT time in the past during which a unique assemblage of life forms was living and being deposited in many parts of the world. Slow or incremental deposition is therefore essential to give time for worldwide changes in populations of fauna whose remains preserved as fossils vary from one stratum to another."

During the geologic ages of the earth's past, life went on in a normal fashion for millions of years. Fossil reefs obviously grew in the place in which they are found. Standing trees, with their roots in place, tracks and trails both on land and on the sea bottoms, layer upon layer containing burrows and borings made by animals just as they do in the sea-bottoms today, all show that most of the geologic column was created OVER MILLIONS OF YEARS, not in the Flood of Noah's time, or some other isolated catastrophe.

Although the record in the earth's strata clearly shows that great catastrophes did take place, in the earth's past, the record also shows that there were periods of millions of years in which no violent cataclysms occurred. During these calm, relatively nonviolent periods, great CREATIVE PROCESSES were going on. Cyclothems of coal were formed. As Macdonald points out, coal is commonly found in a sequence of beds called a cyclothem -- a cycle of beds repeated over and over again, perhaps dozens of times. Much time would be needed for such deposits to be made, one on top of another.

For the rest of this article, go to: http://hope-of-israel.org/lifeadam.htm

Originally edited by: John D. Keyser.


Hope of Israel Ministries -- Preparing the Way for the Return of YEHOVAH God and His Messiah!

This material is from: Hope of Israel Ministries
P.O. Box 2186
Temple City, CA 91780, U.S.A.
www.hope-of-israel.org


See also: http://www.kjvbible.org/satan.html


Quasar92

 

[yeshuasavedme]

On which day of creation did Satan fall?

Did Adam age before the fall?

.

Satan was created by God to be exactly what he is.
There is no such doctrine in any of the word of God that Satan is a fallen angel. He was created to be the prince of darkness, and he gets his own kingdom to reign over, which is the kingdom of darkness / The outer darkness /The lake of fire. He is the chief of the satans, and they are all evil spirits.

Don't try to make the Prince of/king of Tyre to be Satan. That guy is clearly an Adam person, so states the Hebrew in that passage, who is mocked by God as an unclean Adam Spirit.
Adam is fallen. Adam is locked out of heaven, cast out of Paradise, the Holy Mount of God, and is profane in his flesh and cannot bear the glory.
We are all Adam persons come into our being in the one Adam spirit, and are all, in Adam, dead, and cannot go in and out of Paradise, which is in the third heaven, as the Word of God states.

Yes, Adam aged before the fall, but his flesh had no death in it because Corruption had not begun "eating his /dust/flesh", and his aging was toward the day of his transforming to the Glory, after he had lived his thousand year "day", as the Hebrew sages wrote; and that is what this creation will be restored to, as it was created to be, in the beginning, and God will get "sons for the glory", to build His "temple not made with hands", by, and to "plant the heavens", forever, with, as the Word teaches.

 

[LastSeven]

Sounds like a theory made to fit the common scientific consensus around the age of the earth, dinosaur bones and the like.

I'm no expert but I always found it curious that dinosaurs supposedly died billions of years ago, upon their bones which were deposited many "strata" (as this article references"), aka sedimentary layers of particles which formed into rocks creating those pretty coloured lines, yet those same dinosaur bones can be unearthed by simply whisking away the top layer of dirt with a hand brush in the prairies.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Sounds like a theory made to fit the common scientific consensus around the age of the earth, dinosaur bones and the like.

I'm no expert but I always found it curious that dinosaurs supposedly died billions of years ago, upon their bones which were deposited many "strata" (as this article references"), aka sedimentary layers of particles which formed into rocks creating those pretty coloured lines, yet those same dinosaur bones can be unearthed by simply whisking away the top layer of dirt with a hand brush in the prairies.

Ooparts website has lots of proofs of man and "dinosaurs"/dragons co-existing.
Ooparts & Ancient High Technology--Evidence of Noah's Flood?-Literature, Art & History Crawling with Dinosaurs

Ooparts & Ancient High Technology--Evidence of Noah's Flood?-20th and 21st Century Dinosaurs
Daniel killed a dragon, and that is in the Bible

 

[Riberra]

Satan was created by God to be exactly what he is.
There is no such doctrine in any of the word of God that Satan is a fallen angel. He was created to be the prince of darkness, and he gets his own kingdom to reign over, which is the kingdom of darkness / The outer darkness /The lake of fire. He is the chief of the satans, and they are all evil spirits.

Don't try to make the Prince of/king of Tyre to be Satan. That guy is clearly an Adam person, so states the Hebrew in that passage, who is mocked by God as an unclean Adam Spirit.

-Can you explain why the Prince of/king of Tyre is described as being a CHERUB in verse 14?

-It is also said that he was present in the Garden of Eden in verse 13... Hmm! >clue, clue, clues !!!

Ezekiel 28:11-19King James Version (KJV)

11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed CHERUB that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

 

[BABerean2]

Satan was created by God to be exactly what he is.
There is no such doctrine in any of the word of God that Satan is a fallen angel. He was created to be the prince of darkness, and he gets his own kingdom to reign over, which is the kingdom of darkness / The outer darkness /The lake of fire. He is the chief of the satans, and they are all evil spirits.

Rev 12:3　 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.　
Rev 12:4　 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.　



2Pe_2:4　 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6　 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


Luk_10:18　 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.


Isa_14:12　 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

.

 

[LastSeven]

-Can you explain why the Prince of/king of Tyre is described as being a CHERUB in verse 14?

-It is also said that he was present in the Garden of Eden in verse 13... Hmm! >clue, clue, clues !!!

nm.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

-Can you explain why the Prince of/king of Tyre is described as being a CHERUB in verse 14?

-It is also said that he was present in the Garden of Eden in verse 13... Hmm! >clue, clue, clues !!!

Ezekiel 28:11-19King James Version (KJV)

11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed CHERUB that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

You will have to explain how satan is called an Adam, by YHWH, through the prophet. Also you will have to explain how it is that satan is a human being/Adam, King of Tyre/Prince of Tyre, in the original Hebrew, that passage.
You will have to explain how it is that light bearer is not a proper noun, but descriptive, of someone who is profaned/defiled, and cast down and out of Eden, the Mount of God, where Paradise is, and which is in the third heaven.
You will have to explain how it is that satan is not ever called a cherub in the Word of God, and how it is that a cherub is not a dragon, but has four wings, Adam hands, calf feet, four faces, eagle, Adam, lion, bull, and the cherub face is the bull face, in Ezekiel 10.

Now you just cannot make a doctrine of satan falling from heaven in that passage, for Satan is not a cherub, and is not an Adam, and is not in a body, is not the prince/king of Tyre, but is a spirit -and a created evil spirit in heaven. He's still there, ruling over earth until Jesus takes His power unto Himself and is crowned, and casts the Prince of Darkness and his evil angels out of heaven -to earth, in the future.

The Hebrew does not lend to making a doctrine of satan, as a cherub, being cast out of Eden. There are alternate translations:
NET Bible
In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I defiled you and banished you from the mountain of God--the guardian cherub expelled you from the midst of the stones of fire.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
You traded far and wide. You learned to be violent, and you sinned. So I threw you down from God's mountain in disgrace. The guardian angel forced you out from the fiery stones.

Now, through Ezekiel, YHWH is mocking the Prince of Tyre, who makes himself to be as god, but is an Adam.
And also, God has a controversy with the evil fallen Adam spirit of which there is only one, and we all come into our being by the remnant of the one Adam spirit. Adam was in Eden, in the third heaven, and we were seed in his loins and we all died as profane and unclean to the Glory and cannot climb up to heaven, as Nimrod & Co tried to do, and caused the great judgment of the division of the mother tongue into 70, which continue to leaf out from the branches, and caused the days of Adam to be cut short, and caused the tribes to be isolated more and more by the complete dividing of the one land mass into the many, separated by the waters....because of trying to get back into heaven by another way than the ONE WAY, the blood of the Lamb and regeneration thereby of the spirit, which is new birth and the adoption into that One Living Spirit, in which we await the adoption of our bodies by the regeneration of them into the New Man DNA image, so as to be fit for the Glory as Adam was first created to be!