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A way to deal with the oil crisis...

Multi-Elis

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I'd like to propose a way to deal with the oil crisis.

It's called a carbon tax.

The idea is that we raise a special carbon tax, progressively, to let the economy adjust. This tax would make oil prices soring so high, that the Saoudis and those other dictator nations will have to sell it to us at a cheaper price.

(Law of supply and demand, the price would have to come down as demand grows lower because of the high price. But of course, when that happens, we make the carbon tax higher, and so it continues.)

In this way, the money will be in our governments hands. And with it, we help ourselves: we can progressively eliminate income tax: give people the choice about what to do with their dollar: spend it on expensive gassoline, spend it on expensively imported or greenhouse vegetables, spend it heating houses that are too big, or spend it else where. The tax break would allow people to continue affording their regular food and so on, despite the obvious price rise.

This would quickly lead to an efficient re-organization of the whole economy and urbanism to a more energy efficient way. The benefits would be huge: we would be in advance of other countries on environmental issues. We would be on the front line, in advance, in terms of having a strong healthy economy that isn't based on oil when the oil wells really do dry up. We will be obliged to live closer to each other, have good public transportation and a wonderful sense of community.

Any takers?
 

TheNewWorldMan

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A carbon tax would have been a great idea if it had been phased in about 25 years ago, a little at a time. I would have put it into place if I had been President, coupling it with a balanced-budget mandate as well as a CPI-based cap on government spending increases to placate the conservatives.
 
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WorldIsMine

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It's much easier to force everyone to use the bicycle. I've ridden the bicycle all my life. Even when I grow up, I'm not going to drive. It's the bicycle for me until I'm old and dead. Just ban the car.
Thanks, Duce.
What is with so many English people being super-Statists?
 
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beamishboy

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Thanks, Duce.
What is with so many English people being super-Statists?

At least I learnt a new word. Hehe.

With cars and petrol, there is no way we can hope for cooperation from the masses. They'll keep on using cars. Government intervention may be the only way we can put a stop to this unhealthy need for petrol.

I've never used a single drop of petrol all my life. At least not by operating a vehicle. The only vehicle I operate doesn't require any petrol. Plus I've never accumulated an ounce of excess fat all my life. People pay thousands to slimming clinics when they can achieve slimness for free. Just dump the car and ride the bike!
 
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WorldIsMine

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With cars and petrol, there is no way we can hope for cooperation from the masses. They'll keep on using cars. Government intervention may be the only way we can put a stop to this unhealthy need for petrol.
Why is your opinion on what is 'healthy' more important than billions of people whose lives are made easier, more productive and quite possibly saved by the existence of motorized transportation?
Nobody is making you drive a car (obviously), it seems simple enough that not preventing them from driving a car is perfectly reasonable.

Environmentalism (I presume that is the perspective you are taking) is crazy. The only purpose of the planet is to be used by people, like everything else. There is no 'value' outside of what people want.
 
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Multi-Elis

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A carbon tax would have been a great idea if it had been phased in about 25 years ago, a little at a time.
Why only 25 years ago? Were gonna get it worse later if we don't start now. The idea is to accelerate insentive to becoming less carbon dependant, and to do so in the most efficient way. The sooner we adapt, the more we will be ahead of other countries.

Who would collect this tax and how ?
The government, to replace income tax. It would collect it just as it already collects a small gas tax.

I can absolutely guarantee you that quality and quantity will increase while prices will decrease
The point is not to decrease the price to the consumer, (we want to discourage use, seeing how we want to get off our dependancy on it ahead of other countries) it's to reduce it for the Saoudis. Secondly the quantity isn't going to increase anymore than what is already in the ground. That's the limit we want to be prepared for.

Why is your opinion on what is 'healthy' more important than billions of people whose lives are made easier, more productive and quite possibly saved by the existence of motorized transportation?
Environment and quality of life for humans go hand in hand. But even if you don't see the connection, think of it this way: the idea is to reduce the use, not eliminate where it saves people's life. The idea is to leave the choice in people's hands, let the market do it's thing, all the while tweeking it so that it is more robust and prepared for things that are going to happen in the future. Cars make people's live more easy in many ways. But perhaps the carbon tax will allow people to live just as easy, only through living in communities where things are walking distance or easily accessible through public transportation. (Example: where I live, I walk across the street to my small supermarket. Hop on the tram to go to the market for fancier things. Hop on the train to go to the mall). This is a really fcomfortable way of life and will be economically feasable with a carbon tax that makes cars less cheap to ride, but your income higher because of less tax.
 
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HollandScotts

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The carbon tax is a bad idea. It isn't going to force down the price of anything, it's just going to result in 10$ a gallon gas like they have in Europe, which will effectively kill our economy.
I've never used a single drop of petrol all my life. At least not by operating a vehicle. The only vehicle I operate doesn't require any petrol. Plus I've never accumulated an ounce of excess fat all my life. People pay thousands to slimming clinics when they can achieve slimness for free. Just dump the car and ride the bike
No, but everything you've ever bought was brought to you by oil. And your bike tires, what do you think those are made with? Your idea is just dumb.
 
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Multi-Elis

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The carbon tax is a bad idea. It isn't going to force down the price of anything, it's just going to result in 10$ a gallon gas like they have in Europe, which will effectively kill our economy.
If our economy continues to be so dependent on oil, then we are doomed to be killed worse than ever, with no leverage. If our economy can move bit by bit towards an economy that isn't based on oil (except for making tires for bikes of course), then we will be ahead of other countries when the oil really starts to run out.

Also, our dependence on oil is killing us politically. We are dependent on dictators for our oil. They have leverage on us. If we get to squeeze away by changing our economy, we gain freedom.

You are right that carbon tax would make some things more expensive. But if this tax also eliminates or greatly reduces income tax, corporation tax, etc, then you will have the money to afford what you consider most important.

In europe economies do just fine with a higher tax: it just means that a lot of people live closer together and value living where you can easily take public transportation, or where the lay out of the city allows you to do everything on foot.

There is a lot of waste that can be easily eliminated by this money incentive: you don't need an SUV to go to work. Freight uses 40% less fuel when it goes by train in stead of truc. 30% less if it goes by canal. The infrastructures are all in place. You just need to convert truck drivers into train drivers. Mail packages are no longer sent by boat to Europe. They are only done by plane, no choice given.
 
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TheNewWorldMan

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The time for a carbon tax would have been back in 1980. The carbon tax, if phased in gradually, would have been helpful to prod consumers off of oil, and encourage efficiencies in the use of oil. To satisfy the anti-government me-first crowd, if I had been President, I would have coupled the carbon tax with a balanced-budget amendment, and mandated that receipts from the tax go to pay off the federal debt, subsidize R&D into fusion and solar, and reduce the income tax.

As things stand today, supply and demand are doing a bang-up job of raising the price of oil, and a carbon tax is unnecessary (and would, in fact, be destructive, as oil prices are already rising more sharply than the economy can cope with).
 
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ews

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The government, to replace income tax. It would collect it just as it already collects a small gas tax.
This would be a tax at the pump, right? What do you see as an added tax at the pump in the next year? In the next 5 years?
 
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beamishboy

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The carbon tax is a bad idea. It isn't going to force down the price of anything, it's just going to result in 10$ a gallon gas like they have in Europe, which will effectively kill our economy. No, but everything you've ever bought was brought to you by oil. And your bike tires, what do you think those are made with? Your idea is just dumb.

Even if my bike tyres are made of petrol, so what? I use the same tyres for a long time. You keep having to fill up your petrol tank. My idea isn't dumb. You're the one who's dumb. Hope they increase the price of petrol ten-fold. When your car can't start because you have not filled up the tank, I'll whizz by on my bicycle and laugh at you. Hehe.
 
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Multi-Elis

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As things stand today, supply and demand are doing a bang-up job of raising the price of oil, and a carbon tax is unnecessary
I agree, the carbon tax should have been introduced a long time ago. But people's reaction then was the same as it is now.

But I think a carbon tax can do somthing for the supply and demand that is pushing up prices: right now, it's the soudies making the profits. Carbon tax would make the prices go higher, it is true, but it would keep the prices the saoudies sell it at lower than what it would be without the carbon tax. All this for the same law of supply and demand: in order to keep selling, they'd have to lower their prices.

Right now, we are dependant on the soudies politically, because our weak spot is our oil dependancy. A policy that makes us more quickly oil-independant, and that in doing so gives us the money (and again, a repeat, this is in exchange for less income taxes, etc) will give us back our freedom and independancy.
 
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chaz345

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It's much easier to force everyone to use the bicycle. I've ridden the bicycle all my life. Even when I grow up, I'm not going to drive. It's the bicycle for me until I'm old and dead. Just ban the car.


Great idea, NOT.

Get back to me in 10 or so years when the realities of real life are facing you and you discover that a job that supports the kind of life that you choose isn't always available within rideable distance from where you can afford to live.

Keep in mind that this comes from someone eho at your age was riding 150 miles a week or so primarily for transportation and who would be doing it today if I lived withing 20 or so miles of where I work. Also what would you suggest for people who live in areas where the winter climate makes riding impossible?
 
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chaz345

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Even if my bike tyres are made of petrol, so what? I use the same tyres for a long time. You keep having to fill up your petrol tank. My idea isn't dumb. You're the one who's dumb. Hope they increase the price of petrol ten-fold. When your car can't start because you have not filled up the tank, I'll whizz by on my bicycle and laugh at you. Hehe.

Most people vastly underestimate how much petroleum is used for non-transportation uses. In the US anyway, only about 40% of the total petroleum use is for any sort of transportation of goods or people. The rest us used in agriculture and things like plastics and the like.
 
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