A Voice of Dissent in the Orthodox Church

[127.0.0.1]

First of all, while there was plenty of discussion of gays being born that way, there's no such thing as a “gay gene”. There may be several genes which may give a predisposition to sexual addiction of various sorts, and to other addictions (e.g. Alcoholism). But genetic predisposition doesn't mean coercion. And there's no one specific gene which has yet been identified as governing same-sex attraction.

You're right. There is no gay gene. I recall reading that many scientists now think a multitude of genes may be what causes one to be born gay. But they agree that it is biological. Gays born of highly homophobic and intolerant parents have a high motivation to change...yet they fail. If many gays could change and spare themselves the pain of being ousted from friends/family/community don't you think they would?

In modern culture, we have the “gay sub-culture” or “gay community”.This, and contraception, and abortion, are actually part of a program of population control with allowance for the passions, which is supported and promoted by the rich, who are afraid of poor folks getting too numerous and too uppity (this and the sexualization of entertainment and advertising is the “environment” part of the cause). These are the people whose grandfathers supported eugenics for the same purpose.

Abortion is one of the greatest evils of our time. You'll get no argument from me there. But the rest is not that simple. Technically, abstinence can be considered contraception. Guess we better start telling teens not to wait until marriage, can't afford to have them indoctrinated by the powerful elite now can we? Just visit the Childfree forum sometimes and you'll see some of the posters can't afford to have children due to sever health problems, anxiety disorders, panic attacks...etc. What are you going to tell them? "Tough, deal with it! Not my problem if your medication causes stillborn babies! I guess you'll have to live in total abstinence your I'll hold you guilty of murder!" ?

Also...I don't think gays have an agenda to take over the world. And if they do, better befriend Justin now, before he becomes the CEO of a corporation so gay it'll make your head spin, maybe he'll shard his multi-billion dollar earnings with you.

In the OT and Christianity, on the other hand, only procreational sex is supported. In fact, in Orthodoxy, there are rules even in marriage. Its not a case of “anything goes” in the bedroom. The goal is always to control the passions.

I sure hope not. If someone isn't strong enough to abstain from sex, would you argue that they're mature enough to handle >10 kids?!

In short, its possible for some “gays” to become straight, or at least avoid sex, especially if they start the struggle early.

Become straight? Find me a homosexual that is now completely straight. Go ahead, find me one.

 

[Philothei]

Gays are defenately opening another "market".... in many industries....just like the pet lovers... It is such our centrury fad....

 

[127.0.0.1]

Gays are defenately opening another "market".... in many industries....just like the pet lovers... It is such our centrury fad....

No...that's just capitalism. If it's legal and there's money to be made, they'll be there.

 

[Julina]

It is emotionally unhealthy and spiritually detrimental to the child for a Gay couple to adopt. Just as children from single parent homes have an unhealthy idea of what a healthy relationship with a man and a woman should be, so would a child raised by a gay couple.
i know a gay couple who adopted two children from abusive parents. are you saying that the children should've stayed in the abusive household because having lesbian parents that actually love them is unhealthy?

 

[AureateDawn]

It is emotionally unhealthy and spiritually detrimental to the child for a Gay couple to adopt. Just as children from single parent homes have an unhealthy idea of what a healthy relationship with a man and a woman should be, so would a child raised by a gay couple.

To add to Julina - we live in a fallen world. While it is ideal that children are raised in a home with a man and a woman, this isn't the case always. Single parent homes are common (*raises hand*), etc. The child would be much better off with loving gay parents than in an orphanage, wouldn't you agree? There are millions of children that need homes and need loving parents. Gays can provide that, even if it isn't ideal... because this world isn't ideal, it's fallen, and we have to do the best we can. And loving gay parents > orphanages,etc.

 

[Damaris]

It is emotionally unhealthy and spiritually detrimental to the child for a Gay couple to adopt. Just as children from single parent homes have an unhealthy idea of what a healthy relationship with a man and a woman should be, so would a child raised by a gay couple.

i know a gay couple who adopted two children from abusive parents. are you saying that the children should've stayed in the abusive household because having lesbian parents that actually love them is unhealthy?

It's unwise to present this as an "either/or" situation - that either the kid goes to loving lesbian parents or abusive parents - it comes across as suggesting that anyone who says that kids shouldn't live with lesbian parents thinks that they're better off being abused, when I think we'd all agree that children are better off with parents who are not abusive.

That said, I don't agree with laws against gay people adopting. No, as Justin says, it's not ideal. Ideal would be if everyone were working out their salvation within the Orthodox Church, all parents were like St. Macrina the Elder, and gay adoption would be a non-issue because nobody with a predisposition to any sin, including homosexuality, would be living in a lifestyle that encourages acting on those predispositions.

We don't live in that world. We live in a world where there is only one parent who's ever been sinless. And I don't see what the big deal is about sending kids who need families to gay parents, when nobody's complaining about them being sent to parents who live in abundant sin but their sin doesn't happen to be homosexuality. For instance, I don't see people marching in the streets to keep Scientologists from adopting.

Personally, I believe that virtuous acts are invariably connected to Christ, regardless of when or where or how or why they come to happen. So when I see a situation like this, I hope that, perhaps, the selflessness it takes to adopt a child and make him part of a family will help lead the parents (and their children) out of whatever sins they are beset by and illumine them with the light of Christ.

 

[rusmeister]

I think the first thing that needs to happen before we discuss all of these side issues here is for Justin to make a determination about what direction he is going to take his life. I strongly recommend shifting these questions to another thread and even temporarily refraining from posing them.

The result of continuing this thread is that nothing. will. change.

 

[EricTheRed]

nvm. In a effort to fight sin I let some of my own out...

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

If you have a priest, why would you frustrate TAW with these questions that are way, way above our capacity to answer? You have to see how upset people get when you raise this issue here, especially since you have raised it so many times.

And again, I have to ask: do you really think we can help you figure out how to manage your desires? We can't. This issue is just too complex to sort out online. Just keep going to your priest for the complex sexuality and "what should I do with my life" questions and come to TAW for fellowship.

M.

Worth reposting.

And since you could not provide a clear cut reason as to why you were posting here (other than to upset us) and you are discussing this with you SF, may I suggest to the Moderators this thread be closed?

 

[AJB4]

Studies show that children raised by gay parents turn out just fine. Just thought I'd put that out there.

http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.html#canlesbians

 

[rusmeister]

Studies show that children raised by gay parents turn out just fine. Just thought I'd put that out there.

http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.html#canlesbians

This is why the thread should be closed.

The apa is a regular hotbed of Christian thought and guiding philosophy...

 

[Lukaris]

Studies show that children raised by gay parents turn out just fine. Just thought I'd put that out there.

http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.html#canlesbians

Seems like this is on shaky ground & applicable to most limited circumstances since married heteros who adopt do not seem likely to divorce http://www.narth.com/docs/sweden.html

 

[127.0.0.1]

http://www.narth.com/docs/sweden.html

I don't think Narth is a credible, unbiased source.

So...when hetero couples adopt,

does adopting keep them from splitting up?
or does splitting up keep them from adopting?

Link to Wikipedia entry on Narth.

See also Wikipedia entry on Conversion Therapy.

Criticism of conversion therapists

Major medical organizations do not accept the anecdotal evidence offered by conversion therapists for reasons including:[99][104]

• the results are not published in peer-reviewed journals, but tend to be released to the mass media and the Internet (see Science by press conference);[99]
• random samples of subjects are not used and results are reliant upon the subjects' own self-reported outcomes or on the therapist's own evaluations which may be subject to social desirability bias;[55]
• the evidence is gathered over short periods of time and there is little follow-up data to determine whether it was effective over the long-term;[56]
• the evidence does not demonstrate a change in sexual orientation, but merely a reduction in same-sex behavior;[56]
• the evidence does not take into consideration that subjects may be bisexual and may have simply been convinced to restrict their sexual activity to the opposite sex;[56]
• ...
• conversion therapists' research focuses on gay men almost exclusively and rarely includes lesbians.[56][opinion needs balancing]

Francis Mark Mondimore argues that the reason for the focus on gay men is more political than medical. In his view, conservative and rigidly defined gender roles are the core value system used by conversion therapists, and male sexuality, with its emphasis on masculine and patriarchal hierarchies, is seen as more important and valuable than female sexuality.[105]

This is why the thread should be closed.

The apa is a regular hotbed of Christian thought and guiding philosophy...

Do you know of another study from a non-biased source that says otherwise?

Also, I came here to post the Wikipedia entry on Marriage in the Orthodox Church. Here.

 

[Lukaris]

I don't think Narth is a credible, unbiased source.

So...when hetero couples adopt,

does adopting keep them from splitting up?
or does splitting up keep them from adopting?

Link to Wikipedia entry on Narth.

See also Wikipedia entry on Conversion Therapy.


Do you know of another study from a non-biased source that says otherwise?

Also, I came here to post the Wikipedia entry on Marriage in the Orthodox Church. Here.

I would like to clarify too that I am not seeking to interfere with what is permitted in the secular world but cannot be permitted with the church. For ex., the Roman Catholic Church should simply excommunicate pro abortion politicos & avoid direct politics at the pulpit but not neglect to address the moral implications surrounding certain issues (which of course, it is usually diligent). Back on topic, I trust the results of the survey I linked & believe that the foundational stability of alternative marriages (non hetro) is unsound (if secular courts legalize it the Church need not approve of it and has the right of free speech to do so). OTH, why should polygamy be outlawed (& be violently opposed like in the recent incidents in Texas?). What about polygamous adoptions? Are they not deserving of consideration? Do you see why the Gospel is in contention with the world?

 

[127.0.0.1]

I would like to clarify too that I am not seeking to interfere with what is permitted in the secular world but cannot be permitted with the church. For ex., the Roman Catholic Church should simply excommunicate pro abortion politicos & avoid direct politics at the pulpit but not neglect to address the moral implications surrounding certain issues (which of course, it is usually diligent). Back on topic, I trust the results of the survey I linked & believe that the foundational stability of alternative marriages (non hetro) is unsound (if secular courts legalize it the Church need not approve of it and has the right of free speech to do so). OTH, why should polygamy be outlawed (& be violently opposed like in the recent incidents in Texas?). What about polygamous adoptions? Are they not deserving of consideration? Do you see why the Gospel is in contention with the world?

So basically you're saying that you stand by the findings of NARTH.

Polygamy is when a male head is in charge of many wives. As a strong Feminist I'm very much opposed such an arrangement. However, you will find that the Old Testament is full of polygamy. As I recall, even King David had many wives.

At any rate, the issues that would arises from a polygamous arrangement are very different from those of a homosexual one.

In polygamy, the man is clearly in charge. Such is not the case in a homosexual arrangement. Since both participants are of the same sex, it is only natural to think that they would see themselves as being on the same level.

In fact: LINK

 

[Lukaris]

So basically you're saying that you stand by the findings of NARTH.

Polygamy is when a male head is in charge of many wives. As a strong Feminist I'm very much opposed such an arrangement. However, you will find that the Old Testament is full of polygamy. As I recall, even King David had many wives.

At any rate, the issues that would arises from a polygamous arrangement are very different from those of a homosexual one.

In polygamy, the man is clearly in charge. Such is not the case in a homosexual arrangement. Since both participants are of the same sex, it is only natural to think that they would see themselves as being on the same level.

In fact: LINK

I guess what I am trying to say that it is of no concern for any Christian communion (especially the Orthodox Church) to permit any form of marriage outside of one hetro man and one hetero woman within its communion. What the world does is another matter; again, no Christian (Orthodox or otherwise) should have prejudices or phobias towards people in alternative situations out in the world but we are to witness as our Lord calls us to according to our ability (even if it is just personal conviction according to the rule of faith in the ecclesia). Our Savior's reiteration of what constitutes marriage(from Genesis) in today's Orhodox devitional (Mark 10:2-12) defines marriage and the Orthodox Church upholds this. What the world does not within our communion can not be acknowledged as Orthodox. Perhaps there are many virtuous people in alternative marriages but only God can determine this.

 

[127.0.0.1]

I guess what I am trying to say that it is of no concern for any Christian communion (especially the Orthodox Church) to permit any form of marriage outside of one hetro man and one hetero woman within its communion. What the world does is another matter; again, no Christian (Orthodox or otherwise) should have prejudices or phobias towards people in alternative situations out in the world but we are to witness as our Lord calls us to according to our ability (even if it is just personal conviction according to the rule of faith in the ecclesia). Our Savior's reiteration of what constitutes marriage(from Genesis) in today's Orhodox devitional (Mark 10:2-12) defines marriage and the Orthodox Church upholds this. What the world does not within our communion can not be acknowledged as Orthodox. Perhaps there are many virtuous people in alternative marriages but only God can determine this.

I'm not saying that the Orthodox Church should base its beliefs, doctrines, or policies on what the world says. No doubt that would be folly! Since when was the world ever infallible! But careful consideration and meditation needs to be given. There needs to be more honest discussion.

What can we do for gays? We should ask. They need our understanding. The first step in helping them, is understanding what life is like for them. What issues do they face in their day to day lives?

Imagine, if you will, what would it be like to be gay. Imagine what your entire life as a gay person would be like, every aspect of it.

 

[Michael G]

I'm not saying that the Orthodox Church should base its beliefs, doctrines, or policies on what the world says. No doubt that would be folly! Since when was the world ever infallible! But careful consideration and meditation needs to be given. There needs to be more honest discussion.

What can we do for gays? We should ask. They need our understanding. The first step in helping them, is understanding what life is like for them. What issues do they face in their day to day lives?

Imagine, if you will, what would it be like to be gay. Imagine what your entire life as a gay person would be like, every aspect of it.

What we can do for gay people is to help them understand that God has made it very clear the path that one must choose to obtain Heaven. If you don't see the clarity of this message I suggest you reread the story of Soddom and Gomorrah.

 

[rusmeister]

I'm not saying that the Orthodox Church should base its beliefs, doctrines, or policies on what the world says. No doubt that would be folly! Since when was the world ever infallible! But careful consideration and meditation needs to be given. There needs to be more honest discussion.

What can we do for gays? We should ask. They need our understanding. The first step in helping them, is understanding what life is like for them. What issues do they face in their day to day lives?

Imagine, if you will, what would it be like to be gay. Imagine what your entire life as a gay person would be like, every aspect of it.

I agree completely. But at the same time, What can we do for alcoholics? (Which is far more relevant to me, living as I do in Russia.) We should ask. They need our understanding. The first step in helping them, is understanding what life is like for them. What issues do they face in their day to day lives?

Imagine, if you will, what would it be like to be alcoholic. Imagine what your entire life as an alcoholic person would be like, every aspect of it.

We need compassion and understanding for all. What we must not do is to seek compassion for our own passion. It is the thing we are supposed to kill.

 

[Sphinx777]

Due to Stoicism being founded in the culture of ancient Greece, and in the context of ancient Greek religion, and historically prior to Christianity, Stoicism was naturally regarded by the Fathers of the Church as a 'pagan philosophy'. Nonetheless, some of the central philosophical concepts of Stoicism were employed by the early Christian writers. Examples include the terms "logos", "virtue", "Spirit", and "conscience". But the parallels go well beyond the sharing (or borrowing) of terminology. Both Stoicism and Christianity assert an inner freedom in the face of the external world, a belief in human kinship with Nature (or God), and a sense of the innate depravity—or "persistent evil"—of humankind. Both encourage askesis with respect to the passions and inferior emotions (viz. lust, envy and anger) so that the higher possibilities of one's humanity can be awakened and developed. The major difference between the two philosophies is Stoicism's pantheism where God is never fully transcendent but always immanent. God as the world-creating entity is personalised in Christian thought but Stoicism equates God with the totality of the universe. Also, Stoicism, unlike Christianity, posits no beginning or end to the universe, and no continued individual existence beyond death. Even so, Stoic writings such as the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius have been highly regarded and widely read by Christians throughout the centuries. St. Ambrose of Milan was known for applying Stoic philosophy to his theology.

The central Stoic idea of logos had an encounter with early Orthodox Christianity through Arius and his supporters. The ecumenical rejection of this belief was evidenced and deemed heretical at the Council at Nicea. Stoicism influenced Anicius Manlius Severinus Boethius's Consolation of Philosophy, which was highly influential in the Middle Ages in its promotion of Christian morality via secular philosophy.

For example, the Serenity Prayer:

God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, courage to change the things that should be changed, and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other.

Link