LDS A Visit to the LDS Temple

mmksparbud said:

How in the world does God seeing us as all equal to each other---add up to us being equal to Him? How does us all being equal in opportunity to return to Him, add op to us being equal to Him?

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I didn't say we were equal to Him.

BigDaddy4 said:

I guess you didn't understand the question. At least now you gave a little more context to your answer. But let's refresh your memory.
You asked:
"Why would a just God not give everyone an equal opportunity to return to Him?"
To which I replied:
"Why do you equate justice with being equal?"

So, your response of "we are all equal in His eyes" doesn't really answer the question of equal opportunity for everyone. Where is the evidence in the Bible that God gives everyone an equal opportunity to everyone?

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I equate justice with His giving each of us an equal opportunity to return to Him as stated in the Bible:

(Old Testament | 2 Samuel 14:14)

14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.

He devised a way for us, His banished, to not be expelled from Him. In other words He made a way for us to return to Him.

He is the way said:

I didn't say we were equal to Him.

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Nevermind--Misunderstood the question.

mmksparbud said:

Nevermind--Misunderstood the question.

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No problem, I can see how that could happen. Sometimes I get mixed up too.

He is the way said:

I equate justice with His giving each of us an equal opportunity to return to Him as stated in the Bible:

(Old Testament | 2 Samuel 14:14)

14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.

He devised a way for us, His banished, to not be expelled from Him. In other words He made a way for us to return to Him.

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It's your justice = equal opportunity claim that I dispute. "Equal opportunity" is not stated in the Bible. You just made that up. God, not being a respector of persons, doesn't have to give everyone an equal opportunity. God may give everyone an opportunity at some point in their lives, but that does not mean the opportunity is equal for everyone. God may give some more opportunities than others.

BigDaddy4 said:

It's your justice = equal opportunity claim that I dispute. "Equal opportunity" is not stated in the Bible. You just made that up. God, not being a respector of persons, doesn't have to give everyone an equal opportunity. God may give everyone an opportunity at some point in their lives, but that does not mean the opportunity is equal for everyone. God may give some more opportunities than others.

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What you are saying is that God does not have equity. I reject that:

(Old Testament | Psalms 98:9)

9 Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

(Old Testament | Ezekiel 18:25 - 29)

25 ¶ Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

He is the way said:

What you are saying is that God does not have equity. I reject that:

(Old Testament | Psalms 98:9)

9 Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

(Old Testament | Ezekiel 18:25 - 29)

25 ¶ Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

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I reject your strawman rejection because that's not what I said. Did you just do a key word search and come up with what you think fits?

BigDaddy4 said:

I reject your strawman rejection because that's not what I said. Did you just do a key word search and come up with what you think fits?

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Yes I did do a key word search because I wanted to find the scriptures that state that God is just and treats everyone fairly and with equity. No one will be able to criticize His judgments because everyone will make their own choices whether or not they choose to be where He is. He has provided the way for everyone, even those who didn't hear His gospel in this life. Now it is up to you to prove otherwise.

He is the way said:

Yes I did do a key word search because I wanted to find the scriptures that state that God is just and treats everyone fairly and with equity. No one will be able to criticize His judgments because everyone will make their own choices whether or not they choose to be where He is. He has provided the way for everyone, even those who didn't hear His gospel in this life. Now it is up to you to prove otherwise.

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Again...

BigDaddy4 said:

It's your justice = equal opportunity claim that I dispute. "Equal opportunity" is not stated in the Bible. You just made that up. God, not being a respector of persons, doesn't have to give everyone an equal opportunity. God may give everyone an opportunity at some point in their lives, but that does not mean the opportunity is equal for everyone. God may give some more opportunities than others.

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He is the way said:

Yes I did do a key word search because I wanted to find the scriptures that state that God is just and treats everyone fairly and with equity. No one will be able to criticize His judgments because everyone will make their own choices whether or not they choose to be where He is. He has provided the way for everyone, even those who didn't hear His gospel in this life. Now it is up to you to prove otherwise.

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It's not possi8blr to give to everyone the same opportunity to come to Him, for everyone is different, everyone has different levels of faith, everyone is at different levels of how far away they are from anything to do with God. Everyone is called--not everyone is called the same amount of times nor given the same amount of time to surrender. Some are called once, and they come--others are called over and over and over--and never come. Some surrender, but loose their way and sre called again, maybe only once, maybe more times. My father was 81 when he died, called countless times, never surrendered, his youngest son was called many times, died of drug overdose at 50. A friend was called once, surrendered at 15 and stayed with God, died at 16. My aunt was called once---died at 100 still fully surrendered.

mmksparbud said:

It's not possi8blr to give to everyone the same opportunity to come to Him, for everyone is different, everyone has different levels of faith, everyone is at different levels of how far away they are from anything to do with God. Everyone is called--not everyone is called the same amount of times nor given the same amount of time to surrender. Some are called once, and they come--others are called over and over and over--and never come. Some surrender, but loose their way and sre called again, maybe only once, maybe more times. My father was 81 when he died, called countless times, never surrendered, his youngest son was called many times, died of drug overdose at 50. A friend was called once, surrendered at 15 and stayed with God, died at 16. My aunt was called once---died at 100 still fully surrendered.

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God knows us well enough to know who does and does not want Him and who does.He knows who would eventually turn to Him and who would never turn to Him. For some it may take a very long time. However God is just and will make it possible for all to return, but sadly some won't.

BigDaddy4 said:

Again...

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The opportunity to return to God does not end at death:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:18 - 22)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:26 - 29)

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

He is the way said:

The opportunity to return to God does not end at death:

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Where do you get that?

mmksparbud said:

Where do you get that?

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The Bible.

Hmm. I guess your Bible does not contain Isaiah 38:18? "For Sheol cannot thank You; Death cannot praise You; Those who go down into the pit cannot hope for Your truth."

Or Psalm 6:5? "For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?"

Mormon doctrine is anti-Biblical and dangerous. Teaching people to hope in salvation based on choices they can supposedly make after death is giving them false hope.

dzheremi said:

Hmm. I guess your Bible does not contain Isaiah 38:18? "For Sheol cannot thank You; Death cannot praise You; Those who go down into the pit cannot hope for Your truth."

Or Psalm 6:5? "For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?"

Mormon doctrine is anti-Biblical and dangerous. Teaching people to hope in salvation based on choices they can supposedly make after death is giving them false hope.

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Psalms 6:5 is about people not remembering their ancestors. Have you remembered your great great great grandmother on your father's side of the family? Do you know where she is buried? Do you know who her great great grand mother is? Have you thanked her? Our spirit returns to God:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:7)

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

(New Testament | Matthew 10:28)

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

(New Testament | Luke 16:22 - 24)

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

He is the way said:

Psalms 6:5 is about people not remembering their ancestors.

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What? No it isn't. It transparently is not. Where are you getting that from?

Here is Psalm 6 in its entirety:

O Lord, do not rebuke me in Your anger, Nor chasten me in Your hot displeasure. Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak; O Lord, heal me, for my bones are troubled. My soul also is greatly troubled; But You, O Lord--how long? Return, O Lord, deliver me! Oh, save me for Your mercies' sake! For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks? I am weary with my groaning; All night I make my bed swim; I drench my couch with my tears. My eye wastes away because of grief; It grows old because of all my enemies.

Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity; For the Lord has heard the voice of my weeping. The Lord has heard my supplication; The Lord will receive my prayer. Let all my enemies be ashamed and greatly troubled; Let them turn back and be ashamed suddenly.

+++

I don't see anything about anyone's ancestors in there, or otherwise addressed to anyone but God.

Have you remembered your great great great grandmother on your father's side of the family? Do you know where she is buried? Do you know who her great great grand mother is? Have you thanked her?

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She buried somewhere in Mexico, I imagine, and no I don't know where. Nor does this have anything to do with anything in the Psalm.

Our spirit returns to God

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Yes, and? What does this have to do with anything, either?

You should have quoted the rest of the dialogue with Abraham recorded in Luke...particularly where Abraham tells the man no, because he didn't listen in life, so that's not how things are going to work now that he's dead. Gee, I wonder why you didn't quote that.

Let's see...

25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

He is the way said:

The Bible.

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No----where in the bible doe it say that? ---scripture please.

mmksparbud said:

No----where in the bible doe it say that? ---scripture please.

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(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:18 - 22)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:26 - 29)

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

In addition to the Scriptures @dzheremi posted, there is also Hebrews 9:27:

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment