A view on where aborted infants go from Elder Cleopa

[ArmyMatt]

remember that these are not talking of heaven. these are talking about the place they go between this world and the Second Coming. so even if this is true, it in no way bars them from heaven. quite the opposite I imagine.

 

[isshinwhat]

remember that these are not talking of heaven. these are talking about the place they go between this world and the Second Coming. so even if this is true, it in no way bars them from heaven. quite the opposite I imagine.

Could you clarify this statement, please? Are you speaking of humans in general, or the unborn in particular?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Could you clarify this statement, please? Are you speaking of humans in general, or the unborn in particular?

the unborn. saying that even if this limbo like state is true, what makes it not limbo is that it is not eternal. it seems to me that what Elder Cleopa is talking about is the state of the unborn before the Resurrection. so the idea that heaven is closed off to them is incorrect.

 

[isshinwhat]

Well I did a lot of digging and it has really crippled my Orthodox faith for a few reasons.

It seems Jckstraw is right. Everything I could find in the Church Fathers seems to suggest that infants are not punished with hell or rewarded with heaven based on the idea that they have no personal sin but also no personal merit/ virtue. This was more legalistic than I was expecting.

St. Gregory Nanzianzus:



St. Gregory the Great:

Canon of the Council of Carthage:

As a result of my findings I don't know that I can remain Orthodox, as I cannot make sense of God barring infants from heaven.The fathers say infants do not merit heaven because they had no personal merit, but what bothers me is they never had the opportunity to achieve such merit. The blame for this seems to fall on God since it was in his power to give the infants the opportunity to achieve heaven, but he took it away from them.

What is also concerning is that modern Orthodox jurisdictions like the Antiochian in America and the OCA are promulgating the view that unbaptized infants go to heaven, which goes against the tradition of the Church.

When difficulties such as this arise, they can serve as great motivators for evangelization and reflection upon the beauty of the Incarnation. You are absolutely correct, such a thing as an unborn child being deprived of the chance of eternal union with God while in His presence is an ugly, terrible thing. The fact that it touches our hearts as it does, I pray, say something to us about the horror of sin and separation from God which we are all born into. It can also teach us volumes about the mercy of Him who became Incarnate to save us from that death which we find so abhorrent. While you sort this out inside yourself, use it as motivation to spread the Gospel in your life through whatever gifts God has granted you. Let the ugliness of that sin and death that you see enkindle in you a desire to lead a sinless life and lead others to do the same. God is merciful; God is love, and we can be assured that whatever state the unborn who have died rest in, they are in the presence of the God who wishes them good, not ill.

We have three children whom we never got to hold, and we pray for them daily. I have hope that God, who is not bound by His Sacraments, honors the desire we had to Baptize them and grants them eternal life in Christ.

 

[isshinwhat]

the unborn. saying that even if this limbo like state is true, what makes it not limbo is that it is not eternal. it seems to me that what Elder Cleopa is talking about is the state of the unborn before the Resurrection. so the idea that heaven is closed off to them is incorrect.

Copy. To clarify, and you may already know this, the term Limbo comes from the Latin limbus, meaning fringe. The Limbo of the Infants was seen as Hell, the same place where all those who did not possess Sanctifying Grace, which is the indwelling of the Trinity, spent eternity after death; however, it was not the deepest parts where the isolation from God was felt as the dead suffered actual torments for their sins, but the fringe of Hell where they experienced a perfect degree of natural happiness and no torments, since they had committed no sins. It was supposed by some that they experienced the natural joy that being in the presence of God would grant, but not the supernatural joy that participation in the divine nature would bring.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The Limbo of the Infants was seen as Hell, the same place where all those who did not possess Sanctifying Grace, which is the indwelling of the Trinity, spent eternity after death; however, it was not the deepest parts where the isolation from God was felt as the dead suffered actual torments for their sins, but the fringe of Hell where they experienced a perfect degree of natural happiness and no torments, since they had committed no sins. It was supposed by some that they experienced the natural joy that being in the presence of God would grant, but not the supernatural joy that participation in the divine nature would bring.

I know, see my earlier post where I reference Dante's Inferno

 

[jckstraw72]

Columba, our Patristics professor gave us a good word when we were studying a particularly difficult passage in The Ladder of Divine Ascent. he said if we don't/can't understand something -- that's ok! just put it down and come back to it later, with prayer in the meantime. we don't have to intellectually understand it now. if you accept the authority of the Church then you know her teachings are pure, whether or not you are sure what exactly She teaches and what exactly it means. i would encourage you to not try too hard to wrap your head around everything. even if you were to be able to do so it wouldn't guarantee you any kind of spiritual growth.

 

[Columba7]

Columba, our Patristics professor gave us a good word when we were studying a particularly difficult passage in The Ladder of Divine Ascent. he said if we don't/can't understand something -- that's ok! just put it down and come back to it later, with prayer in the meantime. we don't have to intellectually understand it now. if you accept the authority of the Church then you know her teachings are pure, whether or not you are sure what exactly She teaches and what exactly it means. i would encourage you to not try too hard to wrap your head around everything. even if you were to be able to do so it wouldn't guarantee you any kind of spiritual growth.

Thank you for your kindness. I don't think my problem is a lack of understanding, but the fact that I do understand and find it all unacceptable. A God who eternally bars unbaptized infants from heavenly joy contradicts everything else I have encountered in my walk with God. The God I know welcomes all with open arms unless they freely refuse his embrace.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That's WONDERFUL advice!

Columba, our Patristics professor gave us a good word when we were studying a particularly difficult passage in The Ladder of Divine Ascent. he said if we don't/can't understand something -- that's ok! just put it down and come back to it later, with prayer in the meantime. we don't have to intellectually understand it now. if you accept the authority of the Church then you know her teachings are pure, whether or not you are sure what exactly She teaches and what exactly it means. i would encourage you to not try too hard to wrap your head around everything. even if you were to be able to do so it wouldn't guarantee you any kind of spiritual growth.

 

[buzuxi02]

Elder Cleopa is basically holding to the understanding of St Gregory of Nyssa on his treatise on infants early death. Its actually based on ancient greek philosophy. A prize is given to a virtuous man as a reward for those virtues. But where no virtues are cultivated no reward can be given. Likewise punishment is cultivated by those that adhere to vice. Thus a child earns no reward because it cultivated to virtues in this life, but neither suffers any loss as it died sinless.

Also as Innerphyre points out those rewards differ as to what each can handle. A mature man living to a ripe old age will find joy in one thing, whereas a child finds joy in something else, more simple.

 

[buzuxi02]

I don't know. I was just trying to look up something on this, but I don't think I've found anything and probably won't. But, I was thinking why would the infants have to suffer for the mother and father's sin? It can go back to the understanding that being pregnant isn't a sin, it's the pre-marital sex that is. Doesn't each soul belong to God? Or does it go back to each parent is accountable for their children? Again, that would be if the children did something sinful. That's my understanding.

The question is not why or how they ended up in such a state. But what can be done to fix the situation. What is to be done to make things right.

In the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity, "The call" came to Perpetua that her deceased Seven year old brother Dinocrates required her prayers. She saw a vision of her unbaptised brother in dirty clothes, his face eaten by the cancerous infection that cost him his life. Her account of the vision says it was a gloomy place with others around him, the boy wanted a drink of water but the fountain was to high for him to reach. So she prayed for him being confident that her prayers all be answered. She was granted a new vision where his flesh eating infection was healed, only a scar remained, he was able to reach the fountain and the entire place became bright, he then joyfully went off to play as would children of his age.

 

[jckstraw72]

Columba, i meant that perhaps now you are not able to understand how this teaching is harmonious with the character of God, or how it fits into His will for all to be saved ... God works in ways we do not understand, and He sees how it is all working towards the best outcome for all people ... we have to trust in that even when we can't see it ourselves. submitting everything to our own discernment/judgment only leads to ruin.

 

[Dorothea]

When difficulties such as this arise, they can serve as great motivators for evangelization and reflection upon the beauty of the Incarnation. You are absolutely correct, such a thing as an unborn child being deprived of the chance of eternal union with God while in His presence is an ugly, terrible thing. The fact that it touches our hearts as it does, I pray, say something to us about the horror of sin and separation from God which we are all born into. It can also teach us volumes about the mercy of Him who became Incarnate to save us from that death which we find so abhorrent. While you sort this out inside yourself, use it as motivation to spread the Gospel in your life through whatever gifts God has granted you. Let the ugliness of that sin and death that you see enkindle in you a desire to lead a sinless life and lead others to do the same. God is merciful; God is love, and we can be assured that whatever state the unborn who have died rest in, they are in the presence of the God who wishes them good, not ill.

We have three children whom we never got to hold, and we pray for them daily. I have hope that God, who is not bound by His Sacraments, honors the desire we had to Baptize them and grants them eternal life in Christ.

How beautiful. Thanks for that insight.

 

[Dorothea]

The question is not why or how they ended up in such a state. But what can be done to fix the situation. What is to be done to make things right.

In the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity, "The call" came to Perpetua that her deceased Seven year old brother Dinocrates required her prayers. She saw a vision of her unbaptised brother in dirty clothes, his face eaten by the cancerous infection that cost him his life. Her account of the vision says it was a gloomy place with others around him, the boy wanted a drink of water but the fountain was to high for him to reach. So she prayed for him being confident that her prayers all be answered. She was granted a new vision where his flesh eating infection was healed, only a scar remained, he was able to reach the fountain and the entire place became bright, he then joyfully went off to play as would children of his age.

Thanks. Yes, I realized it wasn't about the why or how after reading over the many comments in this thread.

 

[ArmyMatt]

A God who eternally bars unbaptized infants from heavenly joy contradicts everything else I have encountered in my walk with God. The God I know welcomes all with open arms unless they freely refuse his embrace.

we know, that is a monster of a God, certainly not one I would worship. what I think Elder Cleopa is talking about is their state between death and the Last Judgment. the Last Judgment is where our eternal state is determined, not necessarily at our death. the unborn would not experience God's love the same way that someone who struggled for it, hence the difference.

however, once Christ returns, and we are resurrected into what God created us to be, I suspect that the unborn, in their innocence and purity, would have a lot going for them on Judgment Day

 

[isshinwhat]

we know, that is a monster of a God, certainly not one I would worship. what I think Elder Cleopa is talking about is their state between death and the Last Judgment. the Last Judgment is where our eternal state is determined, not necessarily at our death. the unborn would not experience God's love the same way that someone who struggled for it, hence the difference.

however, once Christ returns, and we are resurrected into what God created us to be, I suspect that the unborn, in their innocence and purity, would have a lot going for them on Judgment Day

Regarding the bolded portion, how does that fit with the following statements?

When we die, is there a post-mortem repentance? Is there purification after we die? Can we change our mind after our earthly life is over? How do we relate to all of that? Here I think the simplest answer would be that death is the final test. That is why the quintessential Christian is the marker; you prove your whole life by how you die. Christian life has only one purpose, to trample down death by death through the grace of God. So the transfiguration of death is where everything is proved, and how we die proves everything. Anything that we do up until that moment is prepared for that moment. That is why if we don't die daily we will not be able to transfigure death when the moment comes when we have to go through our passion, crucifixion and death by whatever way that is going to happen. As it is clearly the Orthodox teaching that death is the moment of truth, death therefore also is the final judgement on our life and it is the final chance and opportunity.

Fr. Hopko
What do Orthodox Christians teach about death and what happens when we die

JUDGMENT of the soul according to its faith and deeds on earth, is an unquestioned teaching of the Gospel. It is also a self-evident demand of human nature and reasoning. The Christian Church places this judgment at the very moment of the death of the individual for two reasons:

1) Any moral progress of the soul is excluded after its separation from the body; and
2) there is no hope of repentance or betterment after death.

The moral progress of the soul, either for better or for worse, ends at the very moment of the separation of the body and soul; at that very moment the definite destiny of the soul in the everlasting life is decided. (see Androutsos Dogmatics p. 409). It will be judged not according to its deeds one by one, but according to the entire total results of its deeds and thoughts. The Orthodox Church believes that at this moment the soul of the dead person begins to enjoy the consequences of its deeds and thoughts on earth - that is, to enjoy the life in Paradise or to undergo the life in Hell. There is no way of repentance, no way of escape, no reincarnation and no help from the outside world. Its place is decided forever by its Creator and judge.

...

The Last Judgment is not an act of overthrowing, the judgment of the soul at the time of its separation from the body, but rather to effect a union with the transformed, risen body with which the soul will continue to live forever. After the separation, the soul is conscious and consequently, feels, understands, and in general exercises all the energies of the soul (Revelation 6:9-10, 7:15; 1 Peter 3: 19; Hebrews 12:23; Luke 16:27-28). The word "sleep", by which death is characterized, does not refer to the soul, but to the body. In Matthew 27:52, we read that many Saints who had fallen asleep, were raised. The Last Judgment will take place on the second coming of Jesus Christ, a strong belief of the Church recorded in THE CREED that "He (Jesus Christ) shall come again with glory to judge the quick and the dead". The time of the second coming of Jesus Christ is not known and, according to Revelation, cannot be conjectured by any means.

Death, The Threshold to Eternal Life — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

 

[ArmyMatt]

I would say for one, that Fr Hopko says you are never really dead until you are on God's Left hand on Judgment Day, and that the Final Judgment is called the Final Judgment for a reason.

two, we have countless stories of people who died and were in hades and came out from it, such as St Xenia's husband, Elder Joseph the hesychast's aunt, etc.

 

[isshinwhat]

Thank you for the response. Death being as mysterious as it is, I should not be surprised that there is still some debate within Orthodoxy as to judgment and the state of the soul after death, but I admit that I am. I have always taken for granted that the orthodox position was that presented on the GOARCH site; namely that the eternal state of the soul was decided upon at the moment of the separation of soul an body.

 

[Columba7]

we know, that is a monster of a God, certainly not one I would worship. what I think Elder Cleopa is talking about is their state between death and the Last Judgment. the Last Judgment is where our eternal state is determined, not necessarily at our death. the unborn would not experience God's love the same way that someone who struggled for it, hence the difference.

however, once Christ returns, and we are resurrected into what God created us to be, I suspect that the unborn, in their innocence and purity, would have a lot going for them on Judgment Day

I hope you are right, Matt. Unfortunately I can't find any Orthodox sources that support your view.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I hope you are right, Matt. Unfortunately I can't find any Orthodox sources that support your view.

I think this is why we say when it comes to aborted babies, still born, etc that we trust them in God's hands. I do know that there are folks working on a prayer service for the unborn, and there is an Akathist for a saint who intercedes for those outside of the Church (the unborn, suicides, heterodox, etc). so their certainly must be hope, or else those prayers would not exist.