A View On Homosexuality...

[Reverend Jim]

A Christian Response to Homosexuality:



We are told that it is intolerant to judge homosexuals. While it would be wrong to judge the personhood of someone caught up in homosexuality we are called to judge their behavior. Jesus didn't tell us not to judge, instead, He said, "make a right judgment" (John 7:24). In order to "make a right judgment" we have to follow biblical mandates. The Bible is clear on the subject of homosexual behavior; every time this behavior is mentioned in Scripture it's in a condemnation sense. It's not judging when we restate what God has said about His moral law.



The Bible and Homosexuality:



To get the full Scriptural view of how the Bible treats the subject of homosexuality we need to start from the beginning of God's created order:



So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it" (Genesis 1:27-28).



The Lord God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man." For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh (Gen. 2:18, 23-24).



Here we find that heterosexuality is proclaimed to be God's natural order of creation.

The Bible clearly states that a man will be united to his wife, not homosexual partner (and a woman united to her husband)! God's purpose for human sexual relationships is intended for heterosexual union between a man and a woman in marriage. Jesus confirmed this in Matthew 19:4 when He quoted Genesis chapter 2:



"Haven't you read," He replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' (Matthew 19:4).



Jesus saw the creation account in Genesis as authoritative, an account that defines God's intended purpose for sexual relations to be between a man and a woman in marriage.



Former homosexual Tim Wilkins, director of Cross Ministry, an outreach for homosexuals, said the Bible's teachings are clear.


The only sexual relationship which existed before the fall of man was the husband/wife relationship. Heterosexuality is God's creative design. After the fall of man, counterfeits to God's ideal emerged -- adultery, fornication, incest, homosexuality, etc. When this differentiation is understood, freedom from homosexuality is accelerated as it was in my case (http://baptistpress.org/bpnews.a sp?ID=16452).



Lesbianism Unnatural:



Your desire will be for your husband (Genesis 3:16)



Lesbianism is not part of God's plan even in a fallen world.



Wicked acts in Sodom:



Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing" (Gen. 19:4-6).



Homosexuals proponents argue that the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality. However, we know from other Scripture references that:



Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust [Romans 1:26 describes homosexuality as unnatural lust], serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire (Jude 7 NRSV).



And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked (2 Peter 2:6-7 NKJV cf. Ezekiel 16:49-50).



First century Jewish historian Josephus in his "Antiquities" identified the sin of Sodom with homosexual practices when he wrote: "About this time the Sodomites were proud on account of their riches...they hated strangers and abused themselves with Sodomitical practices." Philo, a Jew of Alexandria (25 B.C.--), noted that in Sodom "the men became accustomed to being treated like women." The second-century BC Pseudepigraphal books also mention the sin of Sodom as "fornication of the flesh" which also "departed from the order of nature."



It's clear that both Scripture and Jewish secular history viewed the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah as homosexuality.



Scripture Twist:



Homosexuals proponents argue that the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality but inhospitality of its citizens. They also argue that the Hebrew word "yada" in Genesis 19:5 should be translated "get acquainted" or "get to know." They claim that the men of Sodom had no sexual intentions towards Lot's visitors. However, this makes no sense in light of Lot's response, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing" (Gen. 19:4-6). Wickedness could hardly apply to a simple request to "get acquainted" with his guests.



While it's true that the Hebrew word yada in Genesis 19:5 does mean get acquainted or get to know it also means getting to know someone sexually. When Adam got to know (yada) Eve she had a child as a result (Gen. 4:1; cf. Judges 19:22). The NIV translates yada in Genesis 19:5 "have sex with" because the context demands this meaning. If the men of Sodom simply wanted to get to know the men inside, why would Lot try to appease them with an offer to have sexual relations with his two daughters? Lot's terrible offer of his virgin daughters could have been a desperate attempt to satisfy their lust. Considering these men wanted sex with the men inside the house, Lot's offer of his daughters appears inappropriate to their homosexual lusts. But, to protect one's guests was part of the hospitality of that culture, Lot just went too far in a desperate attempt to try and protect his guests. That said, the pro-homosexual theory of this passage raises more questions than it answers.



Jonathan and David:



2 Samuel is cited by homosexual advocates as an example of homosexual love between two men, David and Jonathan:



I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women (2 Samuel 1:26).



This passage is not referring to sexual love as some would believe, but to a special friendship they had. The Bible tells us to:



Be devoted to one another in brotherly love (Romans 12:10).



When David said that Jonathan's love for him was more wonderful than that of women, he very well may have been commenting on the lack of "one flesh" (Gen. 2:24) male-female love he felt he received due to the fact that he took so many wives (2 Samuel 5:13). God's created order called for him to be united to one wife not many (Deut. 17:17). The brotherly (not homosexual) love he received from Jonathan may very well have been more meaningful to him than the love he received from any of his multiple wives.



David and Jonathan also knew that they would have been stoned under Levitical law had they been involved in the sin of homosexuality (Lev. 18:22; 20:13). David said he loved God's law (Psalm 119:97) and had hidden God's law in his heart so he would not sin (Psalm 119:11).



The Levitical Law:



The LORD said to Moses....'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable' (Leviticus 18:22).



'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable' (Lev. 20:13).



Homosexual proponents contend the sins listed in these chapters were associated with

the idolatry of the Canaanites. They contend that God does not prohibit homosexuality as practiced today. However, if we were to agree with this argument, then the other sins listed alongside homosexuality in Leviticus 18 and 20 should also be allowed today. Those sins are incest (18:6); adultery (18:20); bestiality (18:23); and child sacrifice (18:21). No one would rightly argue that those sins--as long as they are not associated with idolatry--should be allowed today.



When Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum warned the U.S. Supreme Court not to strike down a Texas sodomy law because it might open the door to legalizing such things as incest and polygamy, the Human Rights Campaign was quick to respond. The homosexual rights organization, said the comparison was "stunning in its insensitivity--putting homosexuality on the same moral plane as incest is repulsive."



Any homosexual who argues that the Levitical ban on homosexual practice does not apply today would be guilty of a double standard by calling incest "repulsive." If homosexuality is permitted today then why not incest? Both are banned in Leviticus chapter 18. But if that ban does not apply today (as the homosexual would argue) then who are they to call incest repulsive?



Pro-homosexuals will also argue that since we are no longer under the law (Romans 6:14) the Levitical ban on homosexuals does not apply today. However Jesus said:



Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them (Matthew 5:17).

 

[Reverend Jim]

Unnatural Relations:



The Apostle Paul wrote the second half of Romans chapter 1 with creation as his context:



The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen (Romans 1:18-25).



His audience, made up of Jews and Christians, would immediately have connected this passage with Genesis chapters 1 and 2. As we have seen earlier, that passage tells us God's intended order calls for heterosexual union between a man and a woman in marriage. Paul continued his argument from creation by tying verses 18-25 with the rest of the chapter 1. He says:



Because of this [Paul is not departing from his theme at this point], God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion (Romans 1:26-27).



Paul calls homosexuality a shameful lust, unnatural, indecent, and a perversion.



Unnatural Interpretations:



In an effort to deflect Paul's clear condemnation of homosexuality, homosexual advocates argue that this passage does not address "true" homosexuals. They claim Paul is talking about heterosexuals who are going against their natures to commit homosexual acts.



Nothing in these verses indicate that Paul made a distinction between so called "true" homosexuals and "false" ones; homosexuals are simply reading this into the verse. He calls the behavior of homosexuality shameful and unnatural no matter who it is committed by. If, as homosexual proponents claim, these were heterosexuals experimenting with homosexuality, why were they "inflamed with lust for one another"? To accept the homosexual "theologians" argument from this passage begs the question. If, as they say, it is a sin for those born heterosexual to practice homosexual acts--then what right do homosexual advocates have to go into our public schools teaching heterosexual boys and men about homosexuality?



Pro-homosexuals also state that this behavior is natural for them, thus Paul could not have been condemning "true" homosexuals. Again, Paul is arguing from the context of creation. He calls homosexuality a gross violation of God's natural design for His creation. A homosexuals claim that their behavior is natural goes directly against the Word of God.

To be consistent, homosexuals clinging to this "natural" argument, would have to allow for people who commit the practices mentioned in verses 29 and 30--"murder...deceit...

slanderers, God-haters--to commit these as long as they come "naturally."



Homosexual proponents, realizing that this is a devastating passage, still opt for more mental gymnastics with these verses. They claim that Paul is linking this "unnatural" homosexual behavior with idolatry. They point to verse 25 where it says they "worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator."



Ex-homosexual and Christian Joe Dallas answers this by saying,



A number of sins other than homosexuality are mentioned in the same passage: 'Fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, backbiters, haters of God,' and so forth (Romans 1:29-30). Will the interpretation applied to verses 26-27 also apply to verses 29-30? Any sort of intellectual integrity demands it; if verses 26-27 apply to people who commit homosexual acts in connection with idolatry, and thus homosexual acts are not sinful if not committed in connection with idolatry, then the same must apply to verses 29-30 as well. Therefore, we must assume that fornication, wickedness, covetousness, and maliciousness (and so forth) are also condemned by Paul only because they were committed by people involved in idolatry; they are otherwise permissible. This, of course is ridiculous" (Joe Dallas, A Strong Delusion, pp 196-197).



Homosexual apologists also claim that the Apostle Paul was not aware of the concept of "sexual orientation" or the alleged "natural" inclination towards homosexuality when he wrote in the first century AD. In other words, he wasn't "enlightened" like today's culture is.



First of all, Paul was from Tarsus, a major city in the Roman empire. He was very familiar with a Roman and Greek culture that certainly exhibited homosexual behaviors.

Plato, writing centuries before Paul, made reference to male homosexuality, lesbianism, and pederasty. Outside of being an orthodox rabbi (Galatians 1:14) who was totally familiar with the Old Testament law and it's clear ban on homosexuality (Lev. 18:22), Paul certainly was aware of the history of his present day culture (James White and Jeffery Niell, The Same-Sex Controversy, pp. 128-129).



Secondly, the Holy Spirit, who inspired Scripture (2 Peter 1:20-21), is omniscient (1 Cor. 2:10). The same Holy Spirit who inspired Paul's writings (2 Peter 3:15) is aware of all concepts, in all times, and all places. The Holy Spirit's transcendent truth is not limited by the knowledge of the author by which the Scriptures were delivered to us. As James White and Jeffery Niell write:



If the Bible is in fact theopneustos, "God breathed," as Paul insists (2 Timothy 3:16), then the question that must be asked is, "Does God's wisdom and knowledge allow Him to clearly reveal His truth to His people despite any and all limitations of knowledge on the part of those He chooses to be His instruments in the recording of His Word? (James White and Jeffery Niell, The Same-Sex Controversy, p. 129).



One final word on Romans 1. The Apostle Paul, who clearly condemned homosexual behavior, also warned those who would condone such a sin:



Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them (Romans 1:32).



Warning to the Corinthians:



Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).



Those condoning homosexuality claim that the Greek words Paul uses here--malakoi ("male prostitute") and arsenokoitai ("homosexual offenders")--have been translated in different ways. They claim that Paul didn't have homosexuality in mind when he used these words. Instead, they say Paul is referring to some kind of immoral action, but not to homosexuality. Is this true?



The Christian Research Journal reports that virtually every Greek lexicon, including all of the standard English ones, has understood these words (especially arsenokoitai) to be referring to homosexuality. William F. Arndt and Wilbur Gingrich's lexicon says malakoi refers to persons who are "soft, effeminate, especially of catamites, men and boys who allow themselves to be misused homosexually." Likewise, arsenokoites means "a male homosexual, pederast, sodomite."



It's also important to note that Paul extensively used the Greek Septuagint (translation of the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek). White and Niell tell us:



He [Paul] was the apostle to the Gentiles, and the Septuagint was the source of his proclamation and the ground of his defense of the gospel as well. Indeed, at times, when the LXX [Septuagint] differed in its wording from the Hebrew text, Paul would choose the LXX, knowing that his audience would have a familiarity with that version. It is a fundamental axiom in all scholarly study of Paul that the LXX is central in the determination of his sources and vocabulary. Truly, no serious challenge can be raised to this simple fact (James White and Jeffery Niell, The Same-Sex Controversy, p. 146).



Paul, in using the Greek phrase arsenokoitai from the LXX,was quoting the prohibitions against homosexuality in Leviticus:



meta arsenos (arsenos--male) ou koimethese koiten (koiten--to lie with sexually, have intercourse) gynaikos (Lev. 18:22).


hos koimethe meta arsenos koiten gynaikos (Lev. 20:13)



Paul took the two terms arsenos and koiten from Leviticus 18 in the Greek Septuagint to coin the word arsenokoitai. Paul was a rabbi thoroughly trained in the Old Testament law (Galatians 1:14) and knew the Levitical condemnations against homosexuality. Quoting Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 leaves no doubt to his meaning in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.



Paul repeated his condemnation of homosexuality elsewhere:



The law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners...and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching (1 Timothy 1:9-10 NASB).



Again, Paul uses the word arsenokoitai in 1 Timothy. The English translation of arsenokoitai is homosexual.



Escape Route:



Some believe that homosexuals can't change, they say God made them this way. That belief however does not hold up to Scripture. Can homosexuals change? As we have seen, Paul listed homosexuality as one of the sins in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. The very next verse should be of significant importance to those who believe in the immutability of homosexuality.



And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God (1 Corinthians 6:11).



Here Paul says that some in Corinth "were" homosexuals. The Scripture declares that homosexuals can change through the washing power of "the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

 

[Reverend Jim]

Not Made that Way:



Did God make people homosexuals? That's like saying God made people fornicators or adulterers. Fornication and adultery, like homosexuality, is an act--a sinful act. A person is not "made" a fornicator, adulterer, or homosexual, instead, this is a sinful behavior they are involved in.



God calls the sin of homosexuality "detestable" (Leviticus 18:22), "shameful...indecent [and a]...perversion" (Romans 1:26-27)--hardly a thing we can say He created. God called what He created "very good" (Genesis 1:31). When God created the first man and woman they were able to "walk in the garden in the cool of the day" in the presence of a Holy God (Genesis 3:8). They were able to do that because they were without sin (Genesis 2:25; 3:22). But when they chose to sin (Genesis 3:6), God, who has eyes too pure to look on sin (Habakkuk 1:13), removed them from His presence (Genesis 3:23). Since that point we have all been in the Fall.



The Scripture teaches, that since we are all descendants of Adam (1 Cor. 15:45; Acts 17:26), we inherited Adam's sin nature (Rom. 5:12-19). Because of that sin nature we are all born spiritually dead (Jesus said "You must be born again" John 3:5-7; cf. Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12; Eph. 2:1; Col 1:21). We are also born physically imperfect (1 Corinthians 15:1-54). Because of the Fall our sinful nature has corrupted our physical makeup. There are physical, mental, psychological, and sexual aspects of our beings that God never intended us to have. All of our sin is genetic due to the Fall.



While we know that one day believers will have glorified bodies (Romans 8:17, 30; 1 Cor. 15:1-54; 1 John 3:2) on a new heaven and a new earth (Revelations 21:1-4), man's uncovered or unredeemed sinful nature alienates him from God (Isaiah 59:2; Eph. 2:1; Colossians 1:21; Romans 3:9-18). Unless we accept the redemption that God offers us through His Son as a free gift and are "washed...sanctified [and] justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Cor. 6:11), the sin, caused by our fallen state, will eternally separate us from a Holy God (Isaiah 59:2; Romans 6:23). No, God did not create people homosexuals, just like He didn't create people fornicators or adulterers. He created people to be pure and holy in His sight (Gen. 1:31; Matthew 5:48) and any sin, including homosexuality, will separate us from His fellowship.



Sin is Sin:



The Bible calls Homosexuality a sin just like any other. A true Christian should say to the person caught up in the sin of homosexuality, "come alongside and join me in the battle against sin. Let's lift each other up to live a holy life in His sight." If we are honest we all would make the same confession the Apostle Paul made, "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst" (1 Timothy 1:15). All of us have effects of the Fall we need to deal with. We all have sin in our lives, and we are all tempted in different ways. Some are tempted towards homosexuality, others toward fornication, adultery, lust, greed, violence, pridefulness etc. God never promises to take away our temptation (see 2 Corinthians 12:7-10), but He promises "He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear" (1 Cor. 10:13). Even if we have a lifetime struggle with these temptations, God gives believers the grace to live obediently through the power of His Son and His Holy Spirit living in us.



A Christian, struggling with sinful temptations, will fall under a conviction from God if they act on those temptations, "The Lord disciplines those He loves" (Hebrews 12:6-8). But people who live in a habitual lifetime of sin with no regret or conviction "are not true sons [of God]" (Heb. 12:8). For "No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin [lifetime of sin] has either seen Him or known Him" (1 John 3:6-9). In order to say that God would bless a homosexual relationship, just like any other, you would have to deny that the act of homosexuality is a sin. This is not the case as the Bible clearly shows.



Argument From Silence:



Homosexual advocates say that Jesus never said anything about homosexuality so it must be okay. We can counter by saying that Jesus might have said quite a bit on the subject that never got recorded (John 21:25). However, both of these claims are arguments from silence. Did Jesus really never say anything about homosexuality? First of all the Bible condemns all types of fornication (Matthew 15:19; Mark 7:21; John 8:41; Acts 15:20,29; Romans 1:29; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; 1 Corinthians 6:12-14; 1 Corinthians 6:17-19; 1 Corinthians 7:1-3 ; 2 Corinthians 12:20-22; Galatians 5:18-20; Ephesians 5:2-4; 1 Thessalonians 4:2-4; Hebrews 13:4; Jude 1:6-8) which would therefore include homosexuality. Jesus condemned fornication in several places:



For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies (Matt. 15:19, KJV).



I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not (Revelation 2:20-21, KJV).



As we saw earlier, Jesus upheld marriage between a man and a woman as God's created intention for sexual union (Matthew 19:4). Anything outside of that--including homosexuality--would be fornication. The only time Jesus condoned sexual union was in the context of a male and female marriage, so even if He didn't say anything about homosexuality directly it's obvious that He didn't approve of it.



Jesus didn't say anything about racism, wife-beating, rape, incest or bestiality. Does that mean that these practices are okay for us today also? There are other sinful behaviors Jesus didn't mention by name; should we conclude, because He didn't specify them, that He didn't condemn them? This is a misleading argument.



To claim that Jesus never said anything about homosexuality is making a false distinction between His words and the rest of Scripture. Jesus said, "the Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35). In saying those words He confirmed the reliability or inerrancy of all Scripture--the same Scripture that condemns homosexuality (Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Gen. 19:4; Rom. 1:26-32; 1 Cor. 6:9-10; 1 Tim. 1:9-10). Remember Jesus said the Scripture cannot be broken; Peter referred to all of Paul's letters as "Scriptures" (2 Peter 3:15-16).



Paul, who specifically condemned the sin of homosexuality in Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and 1 Timothy 1, declared, "I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ....I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie" (Galatians 1:11-20). Here, Paul is equating his writings as being directly received from Christ! In 2 Corinthians 13:3 Paul said "Christ is speaking through me." Paul added, "we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel" (1 Thess. 2:4). And, "we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe" (1 Thess 2:13). "If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command (1 Cor 14:37).



The Holy Spirit that inspired the authors to record the very words of Jesus is the same Spirit that inspired the rest of Scripture:



All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:15-16).



The claim that Jesus didn't directly address homosexuality in no way negates the very specific prohibitions against this sin which appears elsewhere in the "God-breathed"

Scriptures. When the Old Testament Scriptures call homosexuality "detestable" and

"wicked," those are Scriptures Jesus said could not be broken. When the prohibition against homosexuality is repeated in the New Testament with references to this sin being a "shameful lust, unnatural, indecent, and a perversion," those are Scriptures (Peter called Paul's writings Scripture) Jesus said could not be broken. Jesus accepted the divine authority of Scripture (Matt. 4:4-7), its imperishability (Matt. 5:17-18), its supremacy (Matt. 15:3-6), and its inerrancy (Matt. 22:29). He said if you reject the whole of Scripture, you reject God (John 12:47-48; cf. 17:17). Jesus didn't make any distinction between His words and the rest of Scripture, neither should we. The whole Bible should be written in red.



Other Religious Arguments:



Civil Rights Comparison:



Homosexual advocates claim that when society and the church condemns their behavior that turns them into an oppressed minority. They compare their struggle for acceptance with the civil rights movement. This is an outrageous comparison. Homosexuals in America have never been bought and sold as slaves; they have never been denied the right to vote or been forced to drink from different water fountains; and their average income is significantly higher than most minorities in the US! Homosexuals have always had all the rights all Americans have had. Pete LaBarbera of the Culture and Family Institute says:



"We oppose true discrimination. But you cannot equate homosexual behavior with traditional civil rights," he explains. "Civil rights are about things that are unchangeable: black people, Hispanics, etcetera. There is no such thing as an ex-black but there are many, many former homosexuals. And so, you can't put homosexual behavior in with other civil rights categories (http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/7/22003b.asp).



As LaBarbera said there are no former African Americans but there are former homosexuals. Homosexuality is not a civil rights issue but a moral issue! No one would ever say it is a sin to be black or a sin to be physically handicapped. But God's Word does say it is a sin to engage in homosexual behavior.



The Word Homosexual Not in the Bible?



Many gay apologists claim that the term homosexual is never used in the original languages. This argument is presented by Letha Scanzoni and Virginia Ramey Mollenkott in their book Is the Homosexual My Neighbor? (p. 54). Since homosexual is an English word--of course it would not be in the original languages. The original languages were written in Hebrew and Greek, more than a thousand years before the English language even developed. It should go without saying that an English translation of the Bible is going to use English words. Hebrew and Greek scholars have determined that homosexual is the correct translation into English.



Furthermore, the act of homosexuality is clearly described in the original languages as we have seen in the previous discussed passages. Scanzoni and Mollenkott even admit that the Bible speaks of "homosexual acts" (Ibid, p. 60). If the Bible speaks of homosexual acts, then the Bible speaks of homosexuality!



All You Need is Love:



Homosexual advocates will say that as long as you love each other that's all that counts.

A Christian heterosexual couple may be very much in love, but if they become sexually involved before marriage--it will still be fornication. A married man can love a woman other than his wife, that will never justify adultery. Love is not the final standard of right and wrong, God's Word is. As Joe Dallas writes:



Love can, according to Jesus, interfere with God's plan for an individual. In Matthew 10:37, for example, He warns His followers that love for anyone, no matter how legitimate the relationship is, becomes sin when it when it surpasses our love for Him. We can learn an important lesson from King Solomon in this regard. Solomon loved his foreign wives. The problem was, they turned his heart away from God (1 Kings 11:3-4). In his case, love became a snare (Joe Dallas, A Strong Delusion pp. 162-163).



The Bible tells us to love one another with agape love--the highest form of love (John 5:42). Being involved in a homosexual relationship will bring God's judgment on your partner--not love!



Homosexuals "married" in a church same-sex union claim that God would not prohibit such a loving union. However, God is portrayed in Scripture as the faithful bridegroom rejoicing over His bride:



As a young man marries a maiden, so will your sons marry you; as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride, so will your God rejoice over you (Isaiah 62:5).



This heterosexual paradigm is repeated in the New Testament. In the book of Ephesians

when Paul expresses the love Christ has for the church, he turns to the heterosexual love of a husband and a wife:



Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to Himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself (Ephesians 5:25-28).



All of Scripture endorses God's created intention of holy heterosexual marriage. By contrast, homosexuality is conspicuously absent except by condemnation.

 

[Polycarp1]

Great job on setting forth God's Law as you glean it from a thorough reading of Scripture.

Now, we are presented with a world in which somewhere between 2% and 10% of the population is gay in sexual orientation. They are unanimous in stating that they did not choose that orientation, but rather discovered it about themselves somewhere around the age of puberty. And they claim that it is not something that they are able to change. (To be sure, there are ex-gay ministries, and some successes, apparently due to God's intervention in specific instances; we have one or two people on this board who have "come out of homosexuality." But in the absence of God's intervention, making that change is not something they are able to do on their own.)

Apparently, from what you're saying above, they're doomed. God so loved the straight people of the world that He sent His only Son that they, the straight folks, no matter how hatefully they treat gay people, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

May I respectfully suggest, Reverend Jim, that your Gospel is quite different than the one Paul and John and Peter preached?

 

[jazzbird]

Great job on setting forth God's Law as you glean it from a thorough reading of Scripture.

Now, we are presented with a world in which somewhere between 2% and 10% of the population is gay in sexual orientation. They are unanimous in stating that they did not choose that orientation, but rather discovered it about themselves somewhere around the age of puberty. And they claim that it is not something that they are able to change. (To be sure, there are ex-gay ministries, and some successes, apparently due to God's intervention in specific instances; we have one or two people on this board who have "come out of homosexuality." But in the absence of God's intervention, making that change is not something they are able to do on their own.)

Apparently, from what you're saying above, they're doomed. God so loved the straight people of the world that He sent His only Son that they, the straight folks, no matter how hatefully they treat gay people, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

May I respectfully suggest, Reverend Jim, that your Gospel is quite different than the one Paul and John and Peter preached?

Perhaps I didn't read Rev. Jim's posts closely enough, but I did not come away with the negativism that you did Polycarp1. I found his exposition very thorough, unbiased, biblical and positive. I really appreciated it.

Homosexuals are not doomed if they repent of their sin (a homosexual lifestyle - the sin is the lifestyle, not the tendency) and cling to the Lord Jesus for their salvation. Sin is sin - we all have it - and it keeps all of us from the Lord. I am no better than the homosexual, but I have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus, and therefore I turn from my sin and strive to walk in a way that is pleasing to Him. The homosexual has the same opportunity to repent and walk in righteousness as I and you.

 

[flicka]

Perhaps I didn't read Rev. Jim's posts closely enough, but I did not come away with the negativism that you did Polycarp1. I found his exposition very thorough, unbiased, biblical and positive. I really appreciated it.

Homosexuals are not doomed if they repent of their sin (a homosexual lifestyle - the sin is the lifestyle, not the tendency) and cling to the Lord Jesus for their salvation. Sin is sin - we all have it - and it keeps all of us from the Lord. I am no better than the homosexual, but I have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus, and therefore I turn from my sin and strive to walk in a way that is pleasing to Him. The homosexual has the same opportunity to repent and walk in righteousness as I and you.

The Christians I know don't turn from sin, they just find a way to justify it. I can honestly say I have NEVER met a christian that didn't continually sin in one way or the other. Sometimes they feel guilty and sometimes they ask for forgiveness (usually when they get caught or things go bad for them) but they all sin.

 

[jazzbird]

The Christians I know don't turn from sin, they just find a way to justify it. I can honestly say I have NEVER met a christian that didn't continually sin in one way or the other. Sometimes they feel guilty and sometimes they ask for forgiveness (usually when they get caught or things go bad for them) but they all sin.

Turning from sin does not mean that we become sinless, but it means that we strive to do what is pleasing to God. We need to have the desire to live righteously - it doesn't mean that we never mess up.

Perhaps some of the Christians that you know are so in name only. If there isn't a lifestyle change that follows conversion, I would argue that it wasn't real.

 

[flicka]

I think people find different ways to try to please God. People don't 'mess up'...you don't accidently cheat on your wife or accidently get involved in shady business dealings. No, I'm quite sure people know exactly what they are doing. The Christians I know are representative of all Christians, some good/some not so good. Sure, they may strive to do whats right for awhile, but sooner or later they all sin.

I'm not saying this to knock Christians or Christianity, I'm just pointing out that the reason homosexuality is such a hot topic is because its the one thing most people can be confident they will never engage in. It's an easy target and takes the focus off the other things people do, the things nobody will admit to..lol. Humans, whether Christian or not, are EXACTLY the same when it comes to justifying things they want to do and I'm constantly amazed when someone points out sin, and have to wonder what other sin they are trying to take the focus off of...

 

[Miss Shelby]

Some believe that homosexuals can't change, they say God made them this way. That belief however does not hold up to Scripture. Can homosexuals change? As we have seen, Paul listed homosexuality as one of the sins in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. The very next verse should be of significant importance to those who believe in the immutability of homosexuality.



And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God (1 Corinthians 6:11).



Here Paul says that some in Corinth "were" homosexuals. The Scripture declares that homosexuals can change through the washing power of "the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

I think it is very possible that some people are created homosexual. While I believe, if Christian, the homosexual is called to a chaste life, I feel it is unfair to say that God did not make that person the way that they are. It requires an extra measure of grace and prayer, I believe to be a homosexual and called to the Christian life and it would be a very large cross to bear.

This is the question that I have, but it would be directed to the reformed Christian who believes in double predestination. If it is so easy to believe that God creates some people for no other purpose than for them to wind up in hell, then why is it such a stretch to believe that He might create some people homosexual?

I cannot for the life of me grasp onto that logic.

Michelle

 

[kdet]

Shelby please please don't think this is in any way a slam to Catholism...I have simply wondered for years why the Catholic's church position on homosexuality is that it is inate but that homosexuals are to deny what they believe to be their natural desires and live a life without a fullfilling relationship?
At least in most Protestant churches homosexuality is deemed a sin without saying that a person is born that way....do you see what I mean?
Just think out loud here but does the church look at homosexuals like someone born with a propensity to a certain sin that has to fight against falling into that particular sin??

 

[jazzbird]

I think people find different ways to try to please God. People don't 'mess up'...you don't accidently cheat on your wife or accidently get involved in shady business dealings. No, I'm quite sure people know exactly what they are doing. The Christians I know are representative of all Christians, some good/some not so good. Sure, they may strive to do whats right for awhile, but sooner or later they all sin.

I'm not saying this to knock Christians or Christianity, I'm just pointing out that the reason homosexuality is such a hot topic is because its the one thing most people can be confident they will never engage in. It's an easy target and takes the focus off the other things people do, the things nobody will admit to..lol. Humans, whether Christian or not, are EXACTLY the same when it comes to justifying things they want to do and I'm constantly amazed when someone points out sin, and have to wonder what other sin they are trying to take the focus off of...

I don't say "mess up" to make light of sin. Sin is more than the big issues that you mentioned. It's the little daily things too, like choosing to put my own interests above someone elses or ill will against another person or innumerable other little things. I don't mean to say that people don't know what they are doing or aren't fully responsible for their behavior, but we are imperfect.

I've been there. I've been the type of Christian who tries to justify her behavior and tries to hide from God - one who ignores her conscience in order to do what she wants. I was that way. But I realized that all those things I was doing to supposedly make myself happy was actually slowly eating away at my life - and I had to make a change. I didn't truly understand God then, but now I'm beginning to, and knowing Him makes me want to live rightly and honestly - not trying to justify my sin or make it less than it is.

And as far as homosexuality goes - it's something I've thought long and hard about because it's something I've wanted to justify as okay. I had convinced myself that it was okay at one time simply because I wanted it to be so, but once I began really studying the Bible with an open mind and without reading my own agenda into it, I realized I could not longer believe it was okay. I don't speak out against it to point the finger or to make my own sin seem less bad. I have had many gay friends - one who is extremely dear to me. I believe it's wrong only because that's what God says.

 

[jazzbird]

I think it is very possible that some people are created homosexual. While I believe, if Christian, the homosexual is called to a chaste life, I feel it is unfair to say that God did not make that person the way that they are. It requires an extra measure of grace and prayer, I believe to be a homosexual and called to the Christian life and it would be a very large cross to bear.

It is indeed a heavy cross to bear but through God's grace and strength it is possible. I do not believe that God creates people homosexual, but rather it comes about as a result of a certain type of home life paired with a certain tempermant in that child. I do believe that the homosexual feelings are very real, but I just believe they are a result of our imperfect world rather than God. I can expound more on my thoughts about this if anyone's interested, but right now, I need to make dinner!

 

[Beleg_Strongbow]

The OP makes it very clear that your bible condemns homosexuality (as well as eating shellfish, and wearing clothes of mixed fibers).

While you are more than welcome to believe what you want to, you have no good reason for opposing gay marriage. While, yes, they are sinning (according to you) that is their choice, and it will not hurt you at all if they don't comply with your beliefs. They would be gay and do gay acts whether they were married or not. Unless, of course, you propose we do what the bible orders, and kill all homosexuals, in which case I can see our society sliding back into the Dark Ages. If you don't believe that it is ok to be gay, no one is forcing you to be gay. You can only control what you do yourself. For example, the Bible clearly prohibits people from doing any work on Sundays (even as simple as picking up sticks), but you don't usually hear people saying that it should be illegal to do so. If you don't believe in working on Sundays, sit at home and lie around all day, by all means, just let everyone else go about their lives. If you don't think homosexuality is right, you have the choice not to engage in that lifestyle, but please let others live their life as they choose. As much as you'd like to think so, neither my country nor the USA are built upon Christian values or revolve around your religion. North America is not a theocracy, (like those arab countries the US are currently "liberating").

This post is targeted towards Christians who oppose gay marriage. It is perfectly alright to be a Christian and still support gay marriage on a humans rights basis.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Shelby please please don't think this is in any way a slam to Catholism...I have simply wondered for years why the Catholic's church position on homosexuality is that it is inate but that homosexuals are to deny what they believe to be their natural desires and live a life without a fullfilling relationship?

I have questioned that myself and I believe that it would be far worse to deny who a person actually is by telling them that most definintely are NOT something, when they know in their heart that they are. That would be the ultimate rejection. I don't really think it is cruel or unusual to expect the Christian homosexual to live a chaste life, afterall many heterosexual Christians live their entire lives single and they are called to the same celibacy outside of marriage. They have desires too, which according to the Christian life would have to go unsatisfied.

I'm not saying that it would not be a difficult road to tow, but I believe a possible one.

St. Paul asked the Lord three times to remove the thorn from his side, but the Lord would not do it. He had to live with whatever it was that made him uncomfortalbe. We do not know what it was, and I am NOT saying that Paul was homosexual just in case anyone tries to construe that the wrong way. I am just saying that sometimes the Lord does things that we do not understand but we trust and know He is God and try to find some peace in the middle of that.

Homosexuality is something that is very misunderstood by many people. I think it is superficial and shallow to wave it away with a few Bible verses.

At least in most Protestant churches homosexuality is deemed a sin without saying that a person is born that way....do you see what I mean?
Just think out loud here but does the church look at homosexuals like someone born with a propensity to a certain sin that has to fight against falling into that particular sin??

But if the Protestant Churches are denying a very real part of that person's life, telling that person that they are not something that they know they are, I believe that is more damaging in the end.

Michelle

 

[kdet]

Thanks, Shelby. I'm going to have to chew on this awhile. I think I see where you are coming from. I wrestle with this because I use to have homosexual desires and God finally took those desires from me. I don't believe that homosexuals are born that way, I think that something happens to them that causes them to have those desires. I do agree though that no matter what sexual sin we are struggling with, God calls us to be chaste.

 

[jazzbird]

The OP makes it very clear that your bible condemns homosexuality (as well as eating shellfish, and wearing clothes of mixed fibers).

While you are more than welcome to believe what you want to, you have no good reason for opposing gay marriage. While, yes, they are sinning (according to you) that is their choice, and it will not hurt you at all if they don't comply with your beliefs. They would be gay and do gay acts whether they were married or not. Unless, of course, you propose we do what the bible orders, and kill all homosexuals, in which case I can see our society sliding back into the Dark Ages. If you don't believe that it is ok to be gay, no one is forcing you to be gay. You can only control what you do yourself. For example, the Bible clearly prohibits people from doing any work on Sundays (even as simple as picking up sticks), but you don't usually hear people saying that it should be illegal to do so. If you don't believe in working on Sundays, sit at home and lie around all day, by all means, just let everyone else go about their lives. If you don't think homosexuality is right, you have the choice not to engage in that lifestyle, but please let others live their life as they choose. As much as you'd like to think so, neither my country nor the USA are built upon Christian values or revolve around your religion. North America is not a theocracy, (like those arab countries the US are currently "liberating").

This post is targeted towards Christians who oppose gay marriage. It is perfectly alright to be a Christian and still support gay marriage on a humans rights basis.

FYI: There's a difference between the old and new testaments and we are no longer under the law as far as eating shellfish and such. That's sorta a non-issue.

I don't think anyone is proposing that we slaughter any homosexuals. Some Christians are very judgemental and condemning of homosexuals, but there are many, like me, who are concerned about this issue simply because it is an issue of the soul. I am concerned for the eternal well being of my gay friends' souls. As an atheist, you may find that absurd, but in truth, it is a very real and vital issue.

 

[Beleg_Strongbow]

FYI: There's a difference between the old and new testaments and we are no longer under the law as far as eating shellfish and such. That's sorta a non-issue.

I never understood this. You mean all the OT laws are completely moot now? Well, why not just completely get rid of Leviticus then? And aren't the 10 commandments (which are actually a lot more than 10) in the OT as well? So which is it, do we follow those laws, or not? And if not, why did God lay down laws that aren't expected to be followed. Did he change his mind?

 

[Miss Shelby]

It is indeed a heavy cross to bear but through God's grace and strength it is possible. I do not believe that God creates people homosexual, but rather it comes about as a result of a certain type of home life paired with a certain tempermant in that child. I do believe that the homosexual feelings are very real, but I just believe they are a result of our imperfect world rather than God. I can expound more on my thoughts about this if anyone's interested, but right now, I need to make dinner!

I think in some cases this is true. But I really believe that people can have homosexual tendancies/desires and NOT be homosexual.

When someone is truly a homosexual, I don't think they can change it. Sure God could take it from them, but I think it would be more likely that He bestow the grace necessary to walk the road. I think that would draw the person nearer to Him, if the person truly wanted to live in accordance with God's will.

Michelle

 

[flicka]

I don't really think it is cruel or unusual to expect the Christian homosexual to live a chaste life, afterall many heterosexual Christians live their entire lives single and they are called to the same celibacy outside of marriage. They have desires too, which according to the Christian life would have to go unsatisfied.

I'm not saying that it would not be a difficult road to tow, but I believe a possible one.

First off, I am not a homosexual so I don't claim to speak for anyone, it's just my own curiosity...

As I understand it, Christians feel they are 'called' to celibacy. That is, they remain single and chaste by their own choosing based on what they think is Gods plan for them, it's somehow been revealed. Im assuming if they actually met someone and feel in love obviously all bets would be off and they would feel called to a different life altogether.

What I don't understand is how a homosexual christian who does meet someone and fall in love can be told that they must deny themselvs something and live by a standard they personally do not feel 'called' to do.

I guess it all comes down to me not understand the personal relationship christians feel with Jesus. I read alot on this forum about how God is telling people what to do left and right and they are making all sorts of life decisions based on these revelations...so where does that leave the homosexual christian who is not getting the message that their loving relationship is wrong? Why are other christians getting this message (when it does not pertain to them), and yet the person in question is feeling with all their heart and soul that this is exactly what they are ment to do? Do you think they are just kidding themselves to satisfy their sexual urges when a hetrosexual person in the same situation would be congratulated for finding a mate?

ps..I'm so happy this kind of debate can happen without people flaming each other. It's soooo refreshing! Thank you all.

 

[seebs]

The theory is that some feelings or desires can be shown to be not compatible with God's will.

For instance, we generally assume that, no matter how strongly I feel I am attracted to some woman other than my wife, in fact, I am called to not act on such desires.