A very specific question for evolutionists.

[[serious]]

LOL --- I gotta admit, Cabal --- my blood started boiling when I read this, but by the time I finished reading the rest of your post, I almost fell out of my chair laughing. That trifecta part was good! Anyway, back to this ---

No, I do not expect everyone and their neighbor to run out to the Mariana Trench to verify it for themselves. That's not the way it works.

We ALL walk by faith --- that means we don't go around like people in a Chinese Fire Drill independently verifying each other's claims.

For the handful of persons who actually did the work themselves and measured the trench, they are the only ones who can actually say, "The Mariana Trench is 6.8 miles deep. I know - I've been there."

These men walked by sight.

Jesus disciples didn't have to put their faith in the Resurrection. They were there, they saw it, they documented it, they experienced the "infallible proofs". We weren't, and we therefore walk by faith in their documentation; which, as you know, the Bible confirms:

Look at it this way. I have noted a high correlation between data cited in scientific literature and data I have personally collected. From this I have concluded that scientific data from these sources has a high likelihood of being verified by personal experience.

We are not picking a random organization and saying "I'll have faith in what they tell me are the facts." We are recognizing a very strong trend for data from a specific source to match independently gathered data and basing our relative rust of that source on the historical accuracy of their claims.

 

[Split Rock]

We ALL walk by faith --- that means we don't go around like people in a Chinese Fire Drill independently verifying each other's claims.

Again (since you just keep your mind and eyes closed) There is a difference between a "faith" based on physical evidence and "faith" based on religious belief.

Explain to us why you have "faith" in the Gospels and not in the Koran, or the Hindu Rigveda. I can explain very easily why I have "faith" in Cell theory, Germ theory and Evolution theory, but not in Spontaneous Generation , the Vital theory, or The Ether theory. The first group are supported by the physical evidence and the last group were falisified by the physical evidence. What criteria do you use to reject the Koran, Rigveda, or even the Book of Morman? Tell us.

For the handful of persons who actually did the work themselves and measured the trench, they are the only ones who can actually say, "The Mariana Trench is 6.8 miles deep. I know - I've been there."

These men walked by sight.

Jesus disciples didn't have to put their faith in the Resurrection. They were there, they saw it, they documented it, they experienced the "infallible proofs". We weren't, and we therefore walk by faith in their documentation; which, as you know, the Bible confirms:

LOL! Once again you tell us how The Bible confirms what The Bible claims! What good is such a circular argument?

 

[AV1611VET]

Look at it this way. I have noted a high correlation between data cited in scientific literature and data I have personally collected. From this I have concluded that scientific data from these sources has a high likelihood of being verified by personal experience.

Fine --- in that arena, you are walking by sight --- being able to see it for yourself; but the minute someone tells you coffee is on sale down at Krogers for $3.98 a pound, and you say, "Okay," --- you're walking by faith in what you were told.

 

[AV1611VET]

Again (since you just keep your mind and eyes closed) There is a difference between a "faith" based on physical evidence and "faith" based on religious belief.

Did you guys get caught recently with your faith down when that Japanese guy (or whoever it was) got that Nobel Prize (or whatever it was) for research in genobes [or whatever they're called], then had to give it back [I think] because it was a fraud? (You can tell I'm really up on the news here.) How was your faith before that guy got busted?

 

[Skaloop]

Fine --- in that arena, you are walking by sight --- being able to see it for yourself; but the minute someone tells you coffee is on sale down at Krogers for $3.98 a pound, and you say, "Okay," --- you're walking by faith in what you were told.

Your faith in God is obviously very important to you; I don't see why you'd want to diminish if by equating it to the price of coffee.

If I find out that my faith in $3.90/pound coffee was misplaced, I wouldn't care at all. How would you feel to find that your faith in God was misplaced? Probably a bit more than mildly inconvenienced, I would think.

Frankly, I see the conflation of my everyday, coffee-price "faith" with your reverent religious "Faith" to be more insulting to your God than anything I ever do.

 

[Split Rock]

Did you guys get caught recently with your faith down when that Japanese guy (or whoever it was) got that Nobel Prize (or whatever it was) for research in genobes [or whatever they're called], then had to give it back [I think] because it was a fraud? (You can tell I'm really up on the news here.) How was your faith before that guy got busted?

He was South Korean (or whatever he was) and no he didn't get a Nobel Prize (or whatever it was) and it was research in Cloning (or whatever it was). I knew some of what he was later found to have misreported about, but cloning is not related to my field. So what? It was not anywhere near as important as your Faith in Christ as your savior is to you (or so I assume). Guess what? This incident shows clearly how science is self-correcting (unlike your interpretation of scripture) and the value of the Peer Review system.

Frankly, I see the conflation of my everyday, coffee-price "faith" with your reverent religious "Faith" to be more insulting to your God than anything I ever do.

Well Said!

 

[AV1611VET]

He was South Korean (or whatever he was) and no he didn't get a Nobel Prize (or whatever it was) and it was research in Cloning (or whatever it was). I knew some of what he was later found to have misreported about, but cloning is not related to my field. So what? It was not anywhere near as important as your Faith in Christ as your savior is to you (or so I assume). Guess what? This incident shows clearly how science is self-correcting (unlike your interpretation of scripture) and the value of the Peer Review system.

You're dancing around the question. What if his deception had not been caught?

And my question is: From the time he got that Nobel Prize, until the time he was busted, did you [or would you have] believe what he said? (If only at face value.)

 

[Athrond]

The difference is that "we"* retract our "faith" when it is shown that the matter at hand is not true. where as "you guys"** put your fingers in your ears and yell "lalalalaaaa!!! I can't hear you!!!!", or "lalalaaaaa!!! I can't hear you, and besides I like my version of things and will NEVER waver from believing it even if it CANNOT be the truth!!! LALALAAAA!!!".

PS may be edited if I cool down a bit...

* non yecas
**yeccas

 

[Split Rock]

You're dancing around the question. What if his deception had not been caught?

It eventually would. One way or another (see below).

And my question is: From the time he got that Nobel Prize, until the time he was busted, did you [or would you have] believe what he said? (If only at face value.)

I would tentatively accept the results of any well-done experiment that is not controversial. This would have included Hwang Woo-Suk's research, if I had considered it. I would have accepted it after it had been repeated by other labs. As it turns out, his research was not repeated, and was then called into question. Also, please stop claiming he won a Nobel... he did not.

How does any of this relate to your faith that the Bible is the inspired and infallible Word of God? Or that Genesis must be read as literal truth?

 

[AV1611VET]

The difference is that "we"* retract our "faith" when it is shown that the matter at hand is not true. where as "you guys"** put your fingers in your ears and yell "lalalalaaaa!!! I can't hear you!!!!", or "lalalaaaaa!!! I can't hear you, and besides I like my version of things and will NEVER waver from believing it even if it CANNOT be the truth!!! LALALAAAA!!!".

PS may be edited if I cool down a bit...

* non yecas
**yeccas

Sounds like someone is getting a lesson in what's called "unfeigned faith."

Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

 

[Athrond]

Sorry AV, I don't get it. please explain. It would help if you assume that I'm 3 years old and have to have it spoonfed to me

 

[consol]

How does any of this relate to your faith that the Bible is the inspired and infallible Word of God? Or that Genesis must be read as literal truth?

The truth is, it doesn't, because creationism is so pathetic AV will stick to his guns no matter what,
he will twist and turn for all he is worth and get no where, why? because all he has are words in an old book,
and his imagination.

Religion, any religion, is all about faith, not truth, religions deal with what people believe happened in the past,
and what will happen in the future, it does not deal with now, as the past is gone, they can only look to the future,
and the one vital part of their future they all look to, is their death, because that is the bit that concerns them most,
most of them will deny that fact but the truth is, without death, what use is religion, and death is inevitable, even for them,
and the inevitable unfortunately, is inevitable.

(I don't know who wrote these pearls of wisdom)
A fear of death is natural, trying to cheat death is unnatural,
belief in imagined Gods is natural, believing they can change things is not only unnatural, it's crazy.

Death causes people to do strange things, believing in religions being the strangest.

As they say, death is nothing more than the full stop at the end of the book of life,
live life as if each day was your last, because one day it will be,
it doesn't matter how you die because you will retain no memory of it,
everything dies, even planets, and the one we're on is no exception,
it's not if we die, it's when.

 

[mpok1519]

Grey wolves were from something else; so to say cocker spaniels came from grey wolves is the same as saying cocker spaniels came from some line of chordata during the cambrian age.

Thats like saying if a tree turned into a piece of paper, does that mean the piece of paper came from a seedling of a tree?

Yes.

And Eve is a legend based on mesopotamian lore; Eve pre-biblical days was Hawaa, and was even equated with an Opidian goddess Asherah, who was known for being a cult prostitute.

Asherah(a cult prostitute in sumerian lore) gave rise to Eve.

Yes; this question is quite asanine.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sorry AV, I don't get it. please explain. It would help if you assume that I'm 3 years old and have to have it spoonfed to me

Science changes --- God does not.

You put your faith in science, you change when science changes.

You put your faith in the Bible, you change when God changes.

Since God doesn't change, neither does our faith.

 

[Skaloop]

Science changes --- God does not.

Perhaps not, but the Bible does, and has.

You put your faith in science, you change when science changes.

You put your faith in the Bible, you change when God changes.

I see what you did there. Is your faith in God, or the Bible?

Since God doesn't change, neither does our faith.

But your faith has changed. Unless you hold the exact same beliefs as you did the moment you converted (or were born again, or were baptised, or whatever it is), you have likely changed your faith many times.

Now, I expect a response along the lines that your faith didn't actually change, it was merely clarified by further understanding. Which is exactly the same as with our so-called "faith" in science.

Your Faith in God changes as you understand more about the Bible through studying it. Likewise, our "faith" in science changes as we understand more about the universe through studying it.

You are wrong in saying that scientific faith is like religious Faith. But even if we grant you that, you are still wrong in your implication that they have substantive differences.

 

[Split Rock]

Science changes --- God does not.

Perhaps.. but interpretation of scripture sure does. Had you lived in 1401, you would certainly have believed that the Earth was the center of the universe, both figuratively and physically.

You put your faith in science, you change when science changes.

OK

You put your faith in the Bible, you change when God changes.

As already pointed out, your faith in your interpretation of The Bible is what we question, not in God.

Since God doesn't change, neither does our faith.

Perhaps not in God, but your faith in how you interpret scripture sure can. In some cases, it should change, but you cling to old, outdated interpretations nontheless.

 

[pgp_protector]

...snip...

Since God doesn't change, neither does our faith.

So your faith doesn't grow ?

 

[MoonLancer]

Science changes --- God does not.

You put your faith in science, you change when science changes.

You put your faith in the Bible, you change when God changes.

Since God doesn't change, neither does our faith.

Are you trying to say that the christian religious order formed after the council of nicea has not changed up to this date?

The Bible Has also changed. Instead of being one bible from after the council until now, their have been many many bibles all claiming to be THE bible. Your attempt to show a unified Christianity fails.

If you want proof that God HAS changed, look at the bible. The OT and NT show two very different gods.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Science changes --- God does not.

Do you see change as necessarily a bad thing?

You put your faith in science, you change when science changes.

You change regardless of whether or not science changes -- panta rei, and all that.

You put your faith in the Bible, you change when God changes.

Any excuse to compare yourself to God -- Typical fundamentalism.

Since God doesn't change, neither does our faith.

Which is why those of your particular faith are mocked as outdated and irrelevent.

 

[Nathan Poe]

So your faith doesn't grow ?

A faith based on willful ignorance and stagnation is dogmatically forbidden to grow.