A verse that single-handedly destroys the dispensational delusion!

[BABerean2]

Paul says otherwise in Romans, but nothing in Romans applies dispensationally to any truth found in Eph. Hosea involved Israel and since today's truth found only in Eph, etc. has nothing to do with Israel. Hosea has no application for us. Any quote you make out of Romans is totally non-applicable, dispensationally, today. The calling in Eph, of Far above all Heavens, is brand new and is a totally different dispensation than that during Acts. During the entirety of Acts, the hope for both Jews and Gentiles was the kingdom promised to Israel. All saved Gentiles during Acts were attached to Israel. No saved Gentiles in Ephesians are attached to Israel. In Ephesians, we learn that saved Gentiles are equal with Israel, in that today's Jews are individually required to believe in Jesus Christ, just like the Gentiles. There are no nationalities today, in God's eyes - just individuals. During Acts, EVERYTHING revolved around the NATION of Israel.

Try reading Ephesians without your New Covenant spectacles.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


What translation of the Bible are you using...

.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Anyone who believes that their hope and calling is found in the Acts books are very, very. very confused.

First, you said that nothing from Acts applies today. But Peter contradicts you. He said that the promise of the Holy Spirit was for them, and for their children, and for those "for a great while to come."

Second, Paul told the Ephesian Gentiles that he was imprisoned for preaching God's dispensation for them. (Ephesians 3:1). Guess what? Paul was referring to the incident when he was put in chains for preaching the "HOPE of Israel" to the Gentiles (Acts 28:20). You have to read chapters 26-28 for the context.

Third, Paul told the Ephesian Gentiles that Christ came and preached peace to them (Ephesians 2:16-17).

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you (Gentiles) which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Summary:

a. The book of Acts clearly sates that the Holy Spirit was promised to them, and their children, and for those for a great while to come.

b. In the book of Acts Paul preached HOPE to the Gentiles.

c. Jesus came and preached peace to the Gentiles.


It is not I who is confused.

 

[ac28]

The Boxer said,

First, you said that nothing from Acts applies today. But Peter contradicts you. He said that the promise of the Holy Spirit was for them, and for their children, and for those "for a great while to come."
Are you talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit? If so, how could you possibly think that these gifts exist today? They were for Israel and when Israel was set aside in Ac28:28, they totally disappeared. There is no miraculous healing or bringing dead people back to life today. The tongues (jibberish) spoken in Pentecostal type churches are totally phony and totally unlike those in Acts.

Second, Paul told the Ephesian Gentiles that he was imprisoned for preaching God's dispensation for them. (Ephesians 3:1). Guess what? Paul was referring to the incident when he was put in chains for preaching the "HOPE of Israel" to the Gentiles (Acts 28:20). You have to read chapters 26-28 for the context.
That's certainly a weak way to try and weasel out of the truth. Ephesians was written in about 62AD and Paul was still in prison. In fact, he was still in prison 6 years later when he wrote 2 Timothy. In Eph 3:1, he's talking about the situation at that very moment. He didn't say that the reason he was imprisoned was for preaching to the Gentiles. He said he was the prisoner OF JESUS CHRIST for the Gentiles. Big difference.

Acts 28:20 was a different time and a different dispensation. He said he was bound with this chain for the hope of Israel. The 2 verses have nothing to do with each other

Third, Paul told the Ephesian Gentiles that Christ came and preached peace to them (Ephesians 2:16-17).

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you (Gentiles) which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
In the past (Acts), there was no equality between the Jews and the Gentiles. It was totally Israel's program and the Gentiles rode in on Israel's coat tails. They were secondary citizens. In Romans 9:4, we find that, during Acts, the Gentiles had no adoption, no glory, no covenants, no law, and they couldn't preach at any services. Now though, they are fellowheirs and, for the 1st time in history, they are equals to Israel, when Israel comes back on the scene.

Eventually, we faithful Gentiles will be resurrected and translated to Heavenly Places at His appearing and we will become His actual Body, where He is the Head - this will make up the bridegroom. The residents of the New Jerusalem, mostly believing Jews and a few Gentiles from the Acts period plus people like Abraham and the overcomers from Revelation, will make up the Bride. At the marriage supper of the two, they will become one flesh, to make in Himself of Twain, one new man, so making peace. - Ephesians 2:15.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Are you talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit? If so, how could you possibly think that these gifts exist today? They were for Israel and when Israel was set aside in Ac28:28, they totally disappeared. There is no miraculous healing or bringing dead people back to life today. The tongues (jibberish) spoken in Pentecostal type churches are totally phony and totally unlike those in Acts.

Peter was talking about the gift (singular) of the Holy Spirit. The gifts (plural) were not in view. Now you said that nothing from Acts applies today. This implies that the Holy Spirit is not being given today which is false.

That's certainly a weak way to try and weasel out of the truth. Ephesians was written in about 62AD and Paul was still in prison. In fact, he was still in prison 6 years later when he wrote 2 Timothy. In Eph 3:1, he's talking about the situation at that very moment. He didn't say that the reason he was imprisoned was for preaching to the Gentiles. He said he was the prisoner OF JESUS CHRIST for the Gentiles. Big difference.

Acts 28:20 was a different time and a different dispensation. He said he was bound with this chain for the hope of Israel. The 2 verses have nothing to do with each other

First, do not accuse me of trying to "weasel out of the truth." Second, your statement is false. In Ephesians 3:1 Paul was referring to his initial imprisonment and subsequent house arrest (Acts 28:16-30). It was while under house arrest that Paul wrote his epistles. He was initially imprisoned for preaching the "hope of Israel" (the resurrection) to the Gentiles.

In the past (Acts), there was no equality between the Jews and the Gentiles. It was totally Israel's program and the Gentiles rode in on Israel's coat tails. They were secondary citizens. In Romans 9:4, we find that, during Acts, the Gentiles had no adoption, no glory, no covenants, no law, and they couldn't preach at any services. Now though, they are fellowheirs and, for the 1st time in history, they are equals to Israel, when Israel comes back on the scene.

Eventually, we faithful Gentiles will be resurrected and translated to Heavenly Places at His appearing and we will become His actual Body, where He is the Head - this will make up the bridegroom. The residents of the New Jerusalem, mostly believing Jews and a few Gentiles from the Acts period plus people like Abraham and the overcomers from Revelation, will make up the Bride. At the marriage supper of the two, they will become one flesh, to make in Himself of Twain, one new man, so making peace. - Ephesians 2:15.

You have inferred that there was no hope or calling for the Gentiles in Acts or before Acts. But Paul said that Christ came and preached TO THEM. You failed to answer this directly. You appear to be the one who is trying to "weasel out of the truth" though I am not accusing you.

 

[ac28]

Boxer,

What verse are you talking about in this statement you made? I don't have a crystal ball. Not in the AV the way you stated it.
"First, you said that nothing from Acts applies today. But Peter contradicts you. He said that the promise of the Holy Spirit was for them, and for their children, and for those "for a great while to come."

 

[Biblewriter]

... Until you understand what "Israel" is, you'll never understand... eschatology, so maybe start there.

This much of what you said is correct.

 

[BABerean2]

This much of what you said is correct.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

2Co 3:6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


Act 2:14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words.

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—


Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."


Mat 26:28 For this is my blood, which ratifies the New Covenant, my blood shed on behalf of many, so that they may have their sins forgiven.


Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,


.

 

[jerry kelso]

I did not say any such thing.

There are small things I may do on a daily basis that are not perfect in God's eyes.

I will always be a rotten sinner, saved by Grace.

1Jn_1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


I am not willing to deceive myself.
.

baberean2,

1. You are misunderstanding the phrase and the different context.
We were sinners saved by grace is a true statement for Paul says we were sinners but now are saved and are not sinners by nature.

2. It is an oxymoron and a contradiction to say one is a sinner being saved from sin and a christian at the same time who is no longer a sinner by nature. One cannot serve God and Satan at the same time.

3. Not being perfect in God's eyes not always involves outright sin for we are not perfect in our knowledge.
At the same time, John says all unrighteousness is sin so any kind of impurity could be considered sin just as much the definition of a sinner being one who sins.

4. The point and motive of why a christian should be careful of this phrase is what the subconcious can say to a person. For some christians this phrase can be a vice and allow them to stay in a fleshly type of thinking. Also, it can give a false humility or too much credence to the enemy himself.
Now I am not saying this is true of all christians but some and we are not to be ignorant of Satan's devices.

5. Romans 7 is a perfect example of christians not living to the full potential of the new covenant when they believe they can't help but sin etc. because they can bring the spirit of the law upon them. They can miss the fact that the law of sin and death that took advantage of the law of Moses that made them live to sin most of the time was done away with by the law of the Spirit.

6. If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves was spoken to those who didn't believe in original sin. Now to christians we can't deny we have never sinned otherwise we could not have been saved from sin.
Even if we sin today we are not deny the fact that we didn't sin otherwise we cannot repent.
If we don't sin because of being an over comer which Peter believed about the arm of suffering example by Christ so we wouldn't fulfill the things of the flesh which was sin.
Now if Peter didn't believe in sinning because he said the flesh has ceased from sin then one should know that when you don't sin you don't admit that you sin just as when you sin you are to admit that you have sinned.

7. What I have described is the truth according to the word and its context and is not the doctrine of complete perfection that says after one becomes a christian they have no possibility to sin at all.
Believe the truth and quit believing it is about the complete perfectionist doctrine or a super christian.
The super christian is taken to the extreme. The fact is that some will consecrate themselves more to God and not sin as much as others but this doesn't make them a super christian, it just means they consecrated themselves more in their relationship to Christ than others and those people are much more humble most of the time than some on the other side because they along with Paul know how little they are without God. Paul gloried only in the cross and is known as the greatest apostle who ever lived in the new testament but he didn't think he was a super christian for he said he was the least of the apostles but God had mercy on him. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. You are misunderstanding the phrase and the different context.
We were sinners saved by grace is a true statement for Paul says we were sinners but now are saved and are not sinners by nature.

2. It is an oxymoron and a contradiction to say one is a sinner being saved from sin and a christian at the same time who is no longer a sinner by nature. One cannot serve God and Satan at the same time.

3. Not being perfect in God's eyes not always involves outright sin for we are not perfect in our knowledge.
At the same time, John says all unrighteousness is sin so any kind of impurity could be considered sin just as much the definition of a sinner being one who sins.

4. The point and motive of why a christian should be careful of this phrase is what the subconcious can say to a person. For some christians this phrase can be a vice and allow them to stay in a fleshly type of thinking. Also, it can give a false humility or too much credence to the enemy himself.
Now I am not saying this is true of all christians but some and we are not to be ignorant of Satan's devices.

5. Romans 7 is a perfect example of christians not living to the full potential of the new covenant when they believe they can't help but sin etc. because they can bring the spirit of the law upon them. They can miss the fact that the law of sin and death that took advantage of the law of Moses that made them live to sin most of the time was done away with by the law of the Spirit.

6. If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves was spoken to those who didn't believe in original sin. Now to christians we can't deny we have never sinned otherwise we could not have been saved from sin.
Even if we sin today we are not deny the fact that we didn't sin otherwise we cannot repent.
If we don't sin because of being an over comer which Peter believed about the arm of suffering example by Christ so we wouldn't fulfill the things of the flesh which was sin.
Now if Peter didn't believe in sinning because he said the flesh has ceased from sin then one should know that when you don't sin you don't admit that you sin just as when you sin you are to admit that you have sinned.

7. What I have described is the truth according to the word and its context and is not the doctrine of complete perfection that says after one becomes a christian they have no possibility to sin at all.
Believe the truth and quit believing it is about the complete perfectionist doctrine or a super christian.
The super christian is taken to the extreme. The fact is that some will consecrate themselves more to God and not sin as much as others but this doesn't make them a super christian, it just means they consecrated themselves more in their relationship to Christ than others and those people are much more humble most of the time than some on the other side because they along with Paul know how little they are without God. Paul gloried only in the cross and is known as the greatest apostle who ever lived in the new testament but he didn't think he was a super christian for he said he was the least of the apostles but God had mercy on him. Jerry kelso

The Apostle Paul had to confront Peter related to the Galatian believers.

Peter was still a man made of flesh, just like me.

He was not above correction, in this case.

Yes. He was washed by the Blood of Jesus Christ and therefore God sees him as sinless.

I do not know about you Jerry, but the people I go to church with know that we are all sinners saved by Grace.

I never said it was OK to sin willingly by committing adultery, murder, stealing, lying, etc.

You have gone from one extreme to the other.

Based on Romans chapter 6 we have the power to overcome sin in our lives through the working of the Holy Spirit that now dwells inside of us.

However, as long as we are in bodies made of flesh we will never be perfect.

.

 

[Postvieww]

The Boxer said,

First, you said that nothing from Acts applies today. But Peter contradicts you. He said that the promise of the Holy Spirit was for them, and for their children, and for those "for a great while to come."
Are you talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit? If so, how could you possibly think that these gifts exist today? They were for Israel and when Israel was set aside in Ac28:28, they totally disappeared. There is no miraculous healing or bringing dead people back to life today. The tongues (jibberish) spoken in Pentecostal type churches are totally phony and totally unlike those in Acts.

Second, Paul told the Ephesian Gentiles that he was imprisoned for preaching God's dispensation for them. (Ephesians 3:1). Guess what? Paul was referring to the incident when he was put in chains for preaching the "HOPE of Israel" to the Gentiles (Acts 28:20). You have to read chapters 26-28 for the context.
That's certainly a weak way to try and weasel out of the truth. Ephesians was written in about 62AD and Paul was still in prison. In fact, he was still in prison 6 years later when he wrote 2 Timothy. In Eph 3:1, he's talking about the situation at that very moment. He didn't say that the reason he was imprisoned was for preaching to the Gentiles. He said he was the prisoner OF JESUS CHRIST for the Gentiles. Big difference.

Acts 28:20 was a different time and a different dispensation. He said he was bound with this chain for the hope of Israel. The 2 verses have nothing to do with each other

Third, Paul told the Ephesian Gentiles that Christ came and preached peace to them (Ephesians 2:16-17).

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you (Gentiles) which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
In the past (Acts), there was no equality between the Jews and the Gentiles. It was totally Israel's program and the Gentiles rode in on Israel's coat tails. They were secondary citizens. In Romans 9:4, we find that, during Acts, the Gentiles had no adoption, no glory, no covenants, no law, and they couldn't preach at any services. Now though, they are fellowheirs and, for the 1st time in history, they are equals to Israel, when Israel comes back on the scene.

Eventually, we faithful Gentiles will be resurrected and translated to Heavenly Places at His appearing and we will become His actual Body, where He is the Head - this will make up the bridegroom. The residents of the New Jerusalem, mostly believing Jews and a few Gentiles from the Acts period plus people like Abraham and the overcomers from Revelation, will make up the Bride. At the marriage supper of the two, they will become one flesh, to make in Himself of Twain, one new man, so making peace. - Ephesians 2:15.

Ac28 said:

Are you talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit? If so, how could you possibly think that these gifts exist today?

False

They were for Israel

False

and when Israel was set aside in Ac28:28, they totally disappeared.

False

There is no miraculous healing

False

or bringing dead people back to life today.

False

The tongues (jibberish) spoken in Pentecostal type churches are totally phony and totally unlike those in Acts.

False



Mark 16:15-18


James 5:13-15


1 Corinthians 12:27-28
1 Corinthians 12:2


Acts 1:8


Romans 11:29

1 Corinthians 12:1

 

[BABerean2]

Another verse that destroys Dispensationalism...

Luk 3:8　 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.　

And what do Dispensationalists say???

"They are Abraham's seed..."

1Ti_1:4　 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.

.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts 17:30


Lets not forget the following passages:

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 10:5-7

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24

and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Luke 24:47

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Acts 3:22-26

And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 13:32-33,46


I say, please repent and escape from the dispensational delusion. God fulfilled His promise to Israel. Christ served Israel first, and the Gospel was first preached to them.

I am not a dispensationalist, but your quotes can be used to prove it.

 

[BABerean2]

All false doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its advocates, but instead by the scripture that must be ignored to make the doctrine work.

Dispensational Theology ignores the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which was spoken by Christ at the Last Supper at Matthew 26:28. It is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13. In verse 13 we find that the Old Covenant has been made "obsolete" by the New Covenant. In Hebrews 12:18-24 we find the New Covenant applied to the Church. In Hebrews 13:20 the New Covenant is "everlasting". On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel" and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah chapter 31. God ripped the temple veil in half on the day of Calvary to show that the Old Covenant had just been made "obsolete" by the perfect sacrifice of His Son. If God ripped the temple veil in half, who is going to repair it? Dispensationalists claim God is going back to the Old Covenant system with Moses or Aaron as the mediator instead of Christ during the 7 year period before the Second Coming of Christ.

However, we find those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant of Christ. The 144,000 are described as "firstfruits" of the Lamb. Paul uses the same term to describe Christians in Romans 16:5.

God is not going back to the Old Covenant system after a pretrib rapture of the Church. The New Covenant is now the only path of salvation. There is no Plan B. If we truly love the Jewish people we need to share the Gospel with them, now. This is how they may be grafted back into the Olive Tree of Romans chapter 11, which is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.

Once one comes to understand the New Covenant, John Nelson Darby's doctrine turns into a vapor and disappears. The pretrib doctrine also crumbles as one of the pillars of modern Dispensational Theology.

Jer_31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24　 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20　 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25　 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　


It is the New Covenant that fulfills the statement of this thread. Any and every New Covenant verse destroys the doctrine.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

The Apostle Paul had to confront Peter related to the Galatian believers.

Peter was still a man made of flesh, just like me.

He was not above correction, in this case.

Yes. He was washed by the Blood of Jesus Christ and therefore God sees him as sinless.

I do not know about you Jerry, but the people I go to church with know that we are all sinners saved by Grace.

I never said it was OK to sin willingly by committing adultery, murder, stealing, lying, etc.

You have gone from one extreme to the other.

Based on Romans chapter 6 we have the power to overcome sin in our lives through the working of the Holy Spirit that now dwells inside of us.

However, as long as we are in bodies made of flesh we will never be perfect.

.

baberean2,

My computer broke down so I have been out of sync.

1. God sees us as saved not sinless if we have sinned.

2. Peter was flesh and he also said later the flesh has ceased from sin so we won't fulfill the things of the flesh.

3. I have already explained that we were sinners saved by grace when we got saved.
So to say we are still sinners saved by grace is an oxymoron. You are either a sinner or a saint. You can't be both. This is in the context of one's nature.
We are able to sin as christians and can be called sinners by committing acts of sin.
Most people use the phrase we are sinners saved by grace because they believe they can't help but sin or the dual nature theory etc. and for the most part resulting in a law mentality and the struggle.
There are some that use it to keep from giving a perception of being labeled a super saint and to battle a sinless doctrine across the board.

3. If you overcome sin once you can do it again and again.
When I said technically if we can overcome sin by God's power we could technically live sinless all our life. That is a possibility and not a probability for many reasons. This shuts down the notion that we can't help but sin everyday doctrine.
I agree we will not be perfect in our flesh because of many reasons but we must minimize the risk and have a victorious and overcoming life more than a mindset of defeat and show how mighty God is to give power to overcome instead of majoring on how weak the flesh is and how much it can give into the temptation.
So I have gone to no extreme you have just
misunderstood what I have said. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

My computer broke down so I have been out of sync.

1. God sees us as saved not sinless if we have sinned.

2. Peter was flesh and he also said later the flesh has ceased from sin so we won't fulfill the things of the flesh.

3. I have already explained that we were sinners saved by grace when we got saved.
So to say we are still sinners saved by grace is an oxymoron. You are either a sinner or a saint. You can't be both. This is in the context of one's nature.
We are able to sin as christians and can be called sinners by committing acts of sin.
Most people use the phrase we are sinners saved by grace because they believe they can't help but sin or the dual nature theory etc. and for the most part resulting in a law mentality and the struggle.
There are some that use it to keep from giving a perception of being labeled a super saint and to battle a sinless doctrine across the board.

3. If you overcome sin once you can do it again and again.
When I said technically if we can overcome sin by God's power we could technically live sinless all our life. That is a possibility and not a probability for many reasons. This shuts down the notion that we can't help but sin everyday doctrine.
I agree we will not be perfect in our flesh because of many reasons but we must minimize the risk and have a victorious and overcoming life more than a mindset of defeat and show how mighty God is to give power to overcome instead of majoring on how weak the flesh is and how much it can give into the temptation.
So I have gone to no extreme you have just
misunderstood what I have said. Jerry kelso

Jerry,

Pastor Chuck Baldwin sums up my understanding in this message.

The claim that God will stop the New Covenant period of Grace and allow those in the modern nation of Israel to go back to the Old Covenant system during a future time period of 7 years is not found in the Bible. We need to share the Gospel with the Jewish people, now. The two peoples of God doctrine has been extremely destructive to sharing the Gospel with Daniel's people. Many act as if they are still somehow under the Old Covenant.

The New Covenant has replaced the Old Covenant in Hebrews 8:13 and it is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

The 144,000 are described as "virgins" and "firstfruits" of the Lamb. Paul uses the same term to describe Christians in Romans 16:5 and as virgins in 2 Corinthians.

Rev 14:3　 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.　
Rev 14:4　 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Rom 16:5　 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ.　

2Co_11:2　 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.　

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

Pastor Chuck Baldwin sums up my understanding in this message.

The claim that God will stop the New Covenant period of Grace and allow those in the modern nation of Israel to go back to the Old Covenant system during a future time period of 7 years is not found in the Bible. We need to share the Gospel with the Jewish people, now. The two peoples of God doctrine has been extremely destructive to sharing the Gospel with Daniel's people. Many act as if they are still somehow under the Old Covenant.

The New Covenant has replaced the Old Covenant in Hebrews 8:13 and it is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

The 144,000 are described as "virgins" and "firstfruits" of the Lamb. Paul uses the same term to describe Christians in Romans 16:5 and as virgins in 2 Corinthians.

Rev 14:3　 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.　
Rev 14:4　 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Rom 16:5　 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ.　

2Co_11:2　 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.　

.

baberean2,

1. Sorry, you are confused as usual.

2. Nobody is saying the new covenant period will stop, that is absurd. The new covenant is forever and the only way to be saved.
Revelation 11, the temple will be built and desecrated in the tribulation.
The reed like a rod is not merely for measuring but destruction. The Jews will get the horse before the cart just like in Jesus day when the refused to Repent in order to gain entrance into the KoH reign.
The millennial temple will be real and the feasts of the Lord are forever. Any sacrifice in correlation with the feasts such as Passover will only be for memorial of the one true sacrifice. You are wrong in your false assumption.

2. The saints before the cross were saved but not to the uttermost as in the context of being perfected. Hebrews 11:40 shows those before and after the cross were able to be perfected together because of the cross.
The new covenant didn't happen till Christ died. Even if the Jews would have accepted the kingdom which they were prophesied only to reject him; Christ still would have had to die before they were perfected.

3. Your refusal of the real truth of Israel's role as head of the nations and what is synomonous with their covenants and how the law will go forth from Zion and why is why you stay confused. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

2. Nobody is saying the new covenant period will stop, that is absurd.

Classic Dispensationalists claim the "Age of Grace" ends at the pretrib removal of the Church. According to them the purpose of the pretrib rapture is so that God can go back and deal with the modern nation of Israel under the Old Covenant system for a period of 7 years.

Get yourself a Scofield Reference Bible and read it for yourself.

The New Covenant was made with Israel and Judah just as foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13.

Your claim that Israel rejected Christ is not scriptural. On the Day of Pentecost about 3,000 of "the house of Israel" (Acts 2:36) accepted the New Covenant of Christ.

Your whole system is based on genealogy.

The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew chapter 1. It starts with Abraham and ends with Christ.

Shortly after in Matthew 3:9 John the Baptist tells the Jews not to put their faith in being Abraham's seed. We find in 1 Timothy 1:4 that we are not supposed to hold to endless genealogies.

Your system is the true "Replacement Theology".

1. It replaces the Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together, with a Church made up only of Gentiles.

2. It replaces the heir of the vineyard in Matthew chapter 21, with those who rejected Him as the Chief Cornerstone. Christ told them the kingdom would be taken away for their rejection of Him.
He is the true owner of the land of Israel, based in this parable.
He paid for it with His Blood at Calvary.
This fact is confirmed by 1 Peter chapter 2.

3. It replaces the One Seed in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds.

4. It replaces the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

5. I replaces the word "so", with the word "then" in Romans 11:26.

6. It replaces Christ, who is the true temple in the New Covenant, with a temple made by human hands with renewed animal sacrifices.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Classic Dispensationalists claim the "Age of Grace" ends at the pretrib removal of the Church. According to them the purpose of the pretrib rapture is so that God can go back and deal with the modern nation of Israel under the Old Covenant system for a period of 7 years.

Get yourself a Scofield Reference Bible and read it for yourself.

The New Covenant was made with Israel and Judah just as foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13.

Your claim that Israel rejected Christ is not scriptural. On the Day of Pentecost about 3,000 of "the house of Israel" (Acts 2:36) accepted the New Covenant of Christ.

Your whole system is based on genealogy.

The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew chapter 1. It starts with Abraham and ends with Christ.

Shortly after in Matthew 3:9 John the Baptist tells the Jews not to put their faith in being Abraham's seed. We find in 1 Timothy 1:4 that we are not supposed to hold to endless genealogies.

Your system is the true "Replacement Theology".

1. It replaces the Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together, with a Church made up only of Gentiles.

2. It replaces the heir of the vineyard in Matthew chapter 21, with those who rejected Him as the Chief Cornerstone. Christ told them the kingdom would be taken away for their rejection of Him.
He is the true owner of the land of Israel, based in this parable.
He paid for it with His Blood at Calvary.
This fact is confirmed by 1 Peter chapter 2.

3. It replaces the One Seed in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds.

4. It replaces the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

5. I replaces the word "so", with the word "then" in Romans 11:26.

6. It replaces Christ, who is the true temple in the New Covenant, with a temple made by human hands with renewed animal sacrifices.

.

baberean2,

1. Grace has been in every age.
The new covenant started at the cross and will be the avenue of salvation through the church age, the tribulation, the kingdom age and as long as a soul needs to be saved. I already said this so obviously you don't read good.

2. You don't know the Bible too well if you think Israel and Judah has accepted the new covenant which is connected with the restitution of all things like Peter mentioned in the book of Acts and you do do not understand their earthly calling as the head of the nation and that the law will go out of Jerusalem.
Read Ezekiel 36 which is a prophecy about the two sticks of Israel and Judah and has not happened and will not till the end of the tribulation.
Israel is backslidden today and are still looking for the Messiah.
So your Jeremiah and Hebrews interpretation is flawed.
The new Covenant happened at the cross but to say that the Jeremiah and Hebrews concerning the Jewish nation is general and really misunderstanding the whole context.
It is also not truly comprehending the KoH and the KoG message concerning Israel and not believing the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants for the future kingdom are eternal.
Matthew 23:37-39 is Israel's rejection of Jesus. You are wrong on both of these points.

3. I have to leave but suffice to say you don't know what you are talking about just like usual.

4. Your replacement theory of the church age replacing Israel's earthly calling as the head of the nations is absurd.
The churc will be in rulership position in the kingdom but will also have other rulership position in the heavenlies which the Jewish nation will not have.
God is God of order and he promised Israel's covenant to be eternal and if you don' think that if fair take it up with God. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

You don't know the Bible too well if you think Israel and Judah has accepted the new covenant which is connected with the restitution of all things like Peter mentioned in the book of Acts

Mat 21:37　 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'　

Mat 21:38　 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' (Who is the heir to the land?)
　
Mat 21:39　 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.　

Mat 21:42　 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE. THIS WAS THE LORD'S DOING, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES' ?　
Mat 21:43　 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.　
(See 1 Peter 2:9)


Mat 26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.　


Act 2:14　 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.　

Act 2:22　 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—　

Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　
Act 2:37　 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"　
Act 2:38　 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.　
Act 2:39　 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."　




Rom 9:27　 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.　

Do you know the definition of the word "remnant"?



1Pe 2:6　 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHIEF CORNERSTONE, ELECT, PRECIOUS, AND HE WHO BELIEVES ON HIM WILL BY NO MEANS BE PUT TO SHAME."　
1Pe 2:7　 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE,"　
1Pe 2:8　 and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.　
1Pe 2:9　 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;　
1Pe 2:10　 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.　


I read just fine.

Jesus said the kingdom would be taken and given to another, because they rejected the Chief Cornerstone.

Who did Peter say that nation was that accepted the Chief Cornerstone?

How do you read it?

If you think the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 has not been fulfilled, you may want to read Hebrews 8:6-13 and Hebrews 12:18-24.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Mat 21:37　 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'　

Mat 21:38　 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' (Who is the heir to the land?)
　
Mat 21:39　 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.　

Mat 21:42　 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE. THIS WAS THE LORD'S DOING, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES' ?　
Mat 21:43　 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.　
(See 1 Peter 2:9)


Mat 26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.　

Act 2:14　 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.　

Act 2:22　 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—　

Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　
Act 2:37　 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"　
Act 2:38　 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.　
Act 2:39　 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."　




Rom 9:27　 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.　

Do you know the definition of the word "remnant"?



1Pe 2:6　 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHIEF CORNERSTONE, ELECT, PRECIOUS, AND HE WHO BELIEVES ON HIM WILL BY NO MEANS BE PUT TO SHAME."　
1Pe 2:7　 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE,"　
1Pe 2:8　 and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.　
1Pe 2:9　 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;　
1Pe 2:10　 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.　


I read just fine.

How about you?

.

baberean2,

1. No you didn't read good because you didn't address what what we were specifically discussing.

2. Matthew 23:37:39 is the Jewish nation's rejection of Christ and you don't think it is and then you give Matthew 24 about the stone the builders rejected which was Israel so you contradicted your self.

3. The Kingdom of God taken away was the spiritual kingdom of salvation and had nothing to do with their covenants and position on the millennial kingdom. Yes, you don't read or comprehend too well.

4. Acts 2:36 was addressed to the nation of Israel because that is who rejected him and who was there left from Jesus ministry who were the Jewish nation.
The only gentiles were proselytes from Rome. The ministry to the gentiles wasn't til 8-10 yours later.

5. Just because Israelites were being saved had nothing to do with the KoH offer because Christ said it wasn'for them to worry or know for only the father knew.
Paul left his ministry to the Jews because they wouldn't listen to him and so he went to the gentiles. Peter stuck with the Jews.
The destruction of 70 A.D. had nothing to do with another chance to inherit the KoH.
It was because of the rejection of Christ and he made the prediction before the Day of Pentecost just like a the question about the KoH and why that was not in play for the church age.

6. Acts 2:39 is true salvation was promised to Israel but this still nothing to with them being offered the KoH.
Peter understood the signs and promises concerning the KoH and that is why his writings have implications of keeping the message of their eternal covenants will happen one day.

7. Romans 9:27 is to show Israel will be as the sand of the sea, a remnant will be saved.
Verse 28; For he will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness is speaking about the remnant of Israel that will be purged in the tribulation so Israel can be joined with the rest of Israel in the wilderness and take their rightful place at Thea's of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4.

8. 1 Peter 2:8; Peter is talking basically to new covenant Jews though it still speaks to all new covenant believers because both are in the church today.
Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone and the stone of stumbling and rock of offense for the disobedient. This is not the same as in Matthew 24:42 which was about Israel the nation being the original disobedient before the new covenant came along. So this has nothing to do with the end of Israel's earthly calling as the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4.

9. One more thing, about the vineyard parable. It was about Israel's rejection of the KoH and the KoG message and his Son. Israel was and will be the inheritors of the land promised through the Abrahamic covenant Genesis 12-15.
Jesus said, Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth which is in the Old covenant scriptures under the Old covenant concerning their covenant kingdom promises.
The land promised to Israel has to do with the borders of their land in the millennial kingdom as the head of the nations. The law of Israel will go forth from Jerusalem.
This is not promised to the church in this capacity. We will have rulership positions throughout the kingdom.
So the correct context about the land and the kingdom in the covenants of Abraham and David concerning Israel are eternally true.
Once again you are wrong and refuse the truth about the KoH and the KoG concerning Israel's earthly calling. Accept the truth for a change. Jerry kelso