A troubling confession - Extra ecclesiam nulla salus!

[Strong in Him]

Ok? And have you fleshed out what that means, so that His whole will is understood?

It is his will that we accept Jesus.

Salvation was God's idea - he could have destroyed Adam and Eve on the spot. He didn't; he clothed them in an animal skin to cover their nakedness. He escorted them from the Garden, but he didn't give up on them.
God gave the Hebrew slaves his covenant. They broke it, again and again, he still spoke to them and urged them to repent and turn to him.
Eventually God sent Jesus - his Son, the Lamb chosen from the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20. He wants us to accept his free gift, his Son and what he has done for us. He wants a relationship with us - that is his will.

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

The commandment Jesus gave us is to love one another as he loved us.
We cannot love with Jesus' divine, agape love until we have first received divine love from God.

"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours." Matt 6:14-15

Forgive as, and because, God forgave us.
As Jesus said, "love one another as I have loved you."

The way we live will affect our salvation.

We are saved from sin when we accept that Jesus died - gave his life - for us.

So you see that becoming a child of God implies more than the forgiveness of sins, but also certain responsibilities, to remain in Him, born out by how we live our lives including the overcoming of sin.

It is Jesus who gives us the right to become children of God, John 1:12, his Spirit who assures us that we are children of God, Romans 8:16 and Jesus who gives the victory over sin and temptation.

Of course we need to remain in the vine - in Jesus. But he can help us to do that too. It's never achieved by our own works and efforts.

Because justification also includes making us new creations,

Whoever is in Christ IS a new creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

We'll be judged at the end of the day on what we've done with what we've been given.

We'll be asked to account for how we've used our gifts and time; certainly.
We won't be judged for our sins - Jesus has already taken those.

So I'll ask again,
"Does baptism play any real role in regeneration?

No.
Baptism is an outward sign of what takes place when we become believers. We go under the water - figuratively, death; dying to sin - and we are raised to new life.
Jesus saves us, makes us clean and new creations. If someone accepted Christ but died before they were able to be baptised, they would still be saved. Conversely, someone may be baptised but not really believe. For some non Christians, having their child baptised is almost a superstition - "to make sure they get to heaven." JWs and Mormons baptise their followers - and they don't accept the Trinity or who Jesus was.

Does justification amount to simply the remission of sin and imputation of righteousness or does justification also consist of real righteousness now given to believers, with which we work out our salvation as we enter and remain in communion with God?

No idea - I don't do long words.
Anyone who has received God's grace and amazing love will WANT to remain in him, serve him and love him.

Once saved are we always saved, or is it incumbent upon us to be vigilant, to persevere, to be overcoming sin by the Spirit as we remain in Him, and therefore under His grace?

When someone accepts God's amazing love, grace and free gift of eternal life, they are saved.
We don't become perfect when we are saved - but we know the One who will forgive us and make us clean.
If someone walks away/backslides, only God really knows whether they have deliberately turned their back on, and rejected, him - or whether they are going through a really bad time and have been led astray by the devil.

Once saved always saved is not a doctrine that affects how we live as Christians.
Anyone who has experienced God's amazing love, grace and many blessings will WANT to live for him, please him and remain in him. I don't know about you, but I have no intention of walking away from God and sinning, just to test whether or not he would receive me back again afterwards.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

but not from an antagonistic or angry way

Even should it be in a placid eirenic way it will still be ignored.

Honestly, I LOVE the RCC.

Yet you intend to ignore whatever is said from a Catholic perspective and you have adopted the vocabulary of the English "reformation" out of which came 300 years of unmitigated legal repression.

And you wrote

I know, but as I said, I don't take any stock in the RCC's teachings on that matter.

 

[tampasteve]

Even should it be in a placid eirenic way it will still be ignored.

Yet you intend to ignore whatever is said from a Catholic perspective and you have adopted the vocabulary of the English "reformation" out of which came 300 years of unmitigated legal repression.

And you wrote

Kindness would get you a lot further - I have offered nothing but admiration for the RCC. I am allowed to both love and admire something even if I disagree with some fundamentals.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Catholicism is not a faith

Now, that is just insulting.

 

[Halbhh]

I don't know about you, but I have no intention of walking away from God and sinning, just to test whether or not he would receive me back again afterwards.

He will -- as soon as we confess to God our Father any new serious sin we do now (which makes us feel guilt in conscience for instance is a way to know if something is significant), we are instantly forgiven and restored as soon as we confess to God: 1rst John 1:8-10.

So, when Peter, filled with the Spirit, through whom God worked miracles, yet at one point Peter fell into very serious sin, refusing to eat with Gentile Christians that were not physically circumsized -- and Peter "stood condemned"..... --https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202&version=NIV

Matthew 25:43 (rejecting the stranger is a deadly sin). Peter was in danger of hell there....

But, thankfully, later in time, after much discussion, then finally it's clear that Peter repents of this wrong we can see in Acts, now accepting that Gentiles need not be circumcised. So, we can expect that Peter then confessed and was restored (as promised in 1rst John 1:8-10).

You will need this too at times, as about 99-100% of all Christians do -- the wonderful amazing grace of God, that you need only admit your new sin to Him, and He will entirely forgive you because of Christ.

Another key teaching not widely enough known in modern U.S. churches is that Christ taught Matthew 7:24-27 -- here He teaches us that to make it we must be hearing and doing as He taught us we should do. Faith put into action, as James would say it. Or as James worded it in James 1:22, repeating Christ's message to us.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I have offered nothing but admiration for the RCC.

Yet you stated that "I don't take any stock in the RCC's teachings on that matter", what more is there to say?

 

[ozso]

What you have heard ? Try hearing what is true.

I looked into the info previously. With my own ears I've heard different priests preach differing views on various theology. Remember, I've been at this for over 50 years. There's quite a lot of come across. The latest of priests saying Pope Francis isn't even Catholic, has been posted in CF in One Bread, One Body - Catholic. So as much as you may want to deny it, Catholicism is fractured into groups that believe or disbelieve what other groups believe or disbelieve.

 

[tampasteve]

Yet you stated that "I don't take any stock in the RCC's teachings on that matter", what more is there to say?

Simply that I disagree with the conclusions made. For some reason you choose to ignore the kind things I have had to say about the RCC.
Centuries of ill feelings, misconstrued teachings and general rudeness have passed. If only more of us would recognize when we disagree but are also trying to hand an olive branch, these forums and our general lives would be much better off.

 

[ozso]

Yet you stated that "I don't take any stock in the RCC's teachings on that matter", what more is there to say?

Why discuss Catholicism with anyone other than Catholics then? If that's the way you feel, then it's hard to understand why you start threads outside of the Catholics only section.

 

[ozso]

Kindness would get you a lot further - I have offered nothing but admiration for the RCC. I am allowed to both love and admire something even if I disagree with some fundamentals.

Indeed I've been attending a Pentecostal church that I love for several years, even though I disagree with their speaking in tongues doctrine.

 

[Strong in Him]

Now, that is just insulting.

No. it's not.
Christianity is the faith.

Look in any reference book about world beliefs.
FAITHS are, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc etc.
Within the Christian Faith, there are many denominations Anglican, Baptist, catholic Methodist etc etc. ALL hold to the teachings of Christ - rather than Buddha, Mohammed etc.
It would be insulting if I said "Catholicism is not part of the Christian faith; you worship another god." Some do seem to believe that, and have written of worshipping Mary or the Pope being the anti Christ. If I believed that, I would not defend Catholics and refer to you as my brothers and sisters in Christ. Indeed in many of my posts I have said that we all believe in the same God, the same Saviour, same Spirit and same Gospel.
Are Catholics part of the Christian faith - yes, definitely.
Are they a separate faith with a different god, holy book and set of beliefs? No.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Remember, I've been at this for over 50 years.

It isn't possible for me to "remember" your last 50 years.

I looked into the info previously. With my own ears I've heard different priests preach differing views on various theology.

Priests are people and people have differing opinions, this is nothing revolutionary.

The latest of priests saying Pope Francis isn't even Catholic, has been posted in CF in One Bread, One Body - Catholic.

People have opinions, some of them have wrong opinions; what do you expect from more than a billion people? Unanimity? You will not get it.

So as much as you may want to deny it, Catholicism is fractured into groups that believe or disbelieve what other groups believe or disbelieve.

Faulty logic leads to faulty conclusions; I am a Catholic, other Catholics may hold opinions that I do not, that does not make us into separate "denominations" as is so often the case among Protestants, all it does it make us differ on this or that matter of opinion but we all have core beliefs, the Dogmas of the Catholic faith, that we share.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Simply that I disagree with the conclusions made. For some reason you choose to ignore the kind things I have had to say about the RCC.
Centuries of ill feelings, misconstrued teachings and general rudeness have passed. If only more of us would recognize when we disagree but are also trying to hand an olive branch, these forums and our general lives would be much better off.

I am not sure that you are extending an olive branch, it looks more like a nettle branch.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Why discuss Catholicism with anyone other than Catholics then? If that's the way you feel, then it's hard to understand why you start threads outside of the Catholics only section.

I discuss beliefs with anybody who is willing to "hear", but when I am told that what comes from a Catholic perspective will be ignored then the discussion is effectively over, as I said previously.

 

[Strong in Him]

He will -- as soon as we confess to God our Father any new serious sin we do now (which makes us feel guilt in conscience for instance is a way to know if something is significant), we are instantly forgiven and restored as soon as we confess to God: 1rst John 1:8-10.

Yes, I fully believe that.
What I said was that I am not going to walk away from God and sin to test whether or not he would have me back. I am certain he would but, for me, choosing to walk away from God, sin and live as if he doesn't exist is not an option.

 

[tampasteve]

I am not sure that you are extending an olive branch, it looks more like a nettle branch.

I am sorry that you feel that way, I really am. I know you quoted the parts of my words that were in disagreement, but let me remind of the other parts from this thread:
Here

That's not to say that there is not a lot right or not a lot of beauty or wonderful people in the RCC, because there are.

Here

Yes, but not from an antagonistic or angry way - and I do truly apologize if it came off that way. Honestly, I LOVE the RCC. I love the great men I was associated with in the KoC, I love the priests that I worked with, I love the parish I used to attend.

Not to mention the other places on these forums where I have stated my love for my time in the RCC.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No. it's not.
Christianity is the faith.

Look in any reference book about world beliefs.
FAITHS are, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc etc.
Within the Christian Faith, there are many denominations Anglican, Baptist, catholic Methodist etc etc. ALL hold to the teachings of Christ - rather than Buddha, Mohammed etc.
It would be insulting if I said "Catholicism is not part of the Christian faith; you worship another god." Some do seem to believe that, and have written of worshipping Mary or the Pope being the anti Christ. If I believed that, I would not defend Catholics and refer to you as my brothers and sisters in Christ. Indeed in many of my posts I have said that we all believe in the same God, the same Saviour, same Spirit and same Gospel.
Are Catholics part of the Christian faith - yes, definitely.
Are they a separate faith with a different god, holy book and set of beliefs? No.

Bing (chatgtp) tells me this:

The Catholic faith is a branch of Christianity that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. It is the largest Christian church in the world with over 1.3 billion baptized Catholics worldwide as of 2021 1. The Catholic Church is an international institution that has played a prominent role in the history and development of Western civilization 1.​

​

The Catholic Church believes in one God, who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It also believes in the Holy Bible as the word of God and in the teachings of the Apostles’ Creed and Nicene Creed 1. The Catholic Church has a hierarchical structure with the Pope as its leader, followed by bishops, priests, and deacons 1.​

​

The Catholic Church has two main sacraments: baptism and communion. Baptism is a rite of initiation into the church, while communion is a sacrament that involves receiving bread and wine to represent the body and blood of Christ 2.​

​

The Catholic Church has a rich history and tradition that includes art, music, architecture, and literature. It has also contributed to science, philosophy, and education throughout history 1.​

I hope this helps!​

 

[Strong in Him]

Bing (chatgtp) tells me this:

The Catholic faith is a branch of Christianity that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. It is the largest Christian church in the world with over 1.3 billion baptized Catholics worldwide as of 2021 1. The Catholic Church is an international institution that has played a prominent role in the history and development of Western civilization 1.​

​

The Catholic Church believes in one God, who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It also believes in the Holy Bible as the word of God and in the teachings of the Apostles’ Creed and Nicene Creed 1. The Catholic Church has a hierarchical structure with the Pope as its leader, followed by bishops, priests, and deacons 1.​

​

The Catholic Church has two main sacraments: baptism and communion. Baptism is a rite of initiation into the church, while communion is a sacrament that involves receiving bread and wine to represent the body and blood of Christ 2.​

​

The Catholic Church has a rich history and tradition that includes art, music, architecture, and literature. It has also contributed to science, philosophy, and education throughout history 1.​

I hope this helps!​

No, it doesn't answer what I said.
There are many FAITHS in the world. Christianity, whose adherents follow the teachings of Christ, is one of them.
Other faiths have different gods - Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc etc. Jews believe in the same God, but they don't accept that CHRIST was God - therefore they are not Christians. Though some are Messianic Jews.

Catholics are members of the Christian faith. Your quote even said that - "a branch of Christianity".
So the Catholic church, itself, is NOT a faith but part of the Christian faith.

Like I said, if I had said, Catholics ARE a separate faith - they worship Mary and the saints; I am quite sure I would have been in trouble.
Maybe you missed the bit where I said that Catholics are my brothers and sisters in Christ?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

So the Catholic church, itself, is NOT a faith but part of the Christian faith.

That is fatuous.

 

[Halbhh]

Indeed I've been attending a Pentecostal church that I love for several years, even though I disagree with their speaking in tongues doctrine.

That's how it was for me, even as a 12 yr old and we moved next door to a Pentecostal church and attended many services, and many things were good, but that was one thing I didn't feel was correct. (much later (decades later), I finally knew why: they didn't follow 1 Cor 14 instructions.....)