A tough questions for a blind man...

[EastCoastRemnant]

I have only one question, where in the bible old or new, does it mention or elude to Abraham spearheading any campaign of bringing all nations under God, or evangelizing the world......I've never heard of anything like this?

Gen 17:4
As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

Not just the one nation of Israel.

Gen 18:18
Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

All peopels were to benefit from this covenant.

Deut 4:6-8
Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.


For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

They were to be an example to the world, a beacon on a hill.

Matt 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Yes this was the NT but who was Jesus speaking to here? The Jews... this was not a new concept but one that God's people had long ago forgotten.

 

[ricker]

May I ask you a question?

How do you define legalistic?

Maybe you should ask ECR since he was the one who first brought it up.

For me it is requiring the adherance to specific laws at peril of dire consequences. ( such as death by stoning)

 

[ricker]

[

quote=EastCoastRemnant;57023157]The Law was established at creation and wasn't a burden or a list of rules, it was the product of love for one another. As time went on and man became more corrupt through sin, the intended purpose became lost and was almost forgotten until Moses delivered the Israelites from their laodician state. Because they did not know God anymore and His character and how to worship Him and honour Him through obedience and love, the Decalogue was written down, so they could understand, at a basic level, the start of what loving God and one another entailed. They were to grow from this milk message but instead they became more and more legalistic till they were in the place that Jesus found them in.

Jesus' purpose was to bring His people back to the true understanding of what the Law is and why it was there in the first place. The principles He laid out were not new to God's understanding of the Law but was to a backslidden, apostate people

Where can I find the loving sabbath law, or anyone keeping it. before the Exodus? Was the law given at Sinai not loving? I know it included death for disobedience.

 

[k4c]

Maybe you should ask ECR since he was the one who first brought it up.

For me it is requiring the adherance to specific laws at peril of dire consequences. ( such as death by stoning)

Do you believe that once a person is saved he never has to worry about sin again?

Do you believe it's legalistic to tell someone not to play with a loaded gun or not to commit adultery?

 

[ricker]

Do you believe that once a person is saved he never has to worry about sin again?

Do you believe it's legalistic to tell someone not to play with a loaded gun or not to commit adultery?

It's a sad reality a person who is saved will still sin until corruptable puts on incorruption. I really don't thiink we have to "worry" about sin, as Jesus has saved us.

It is not legalistic to exhort Christians to live pure lives. God through Paul does quite a few places. It is legalistic to tell them that keeping or breaking any certain law will cause the grace of God to be of no effect.

What in the world do loaded guns have to do with legalism?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

For me it is requiring the adherance to specific laws at peril of dire consequences. ( such as death by stoning)

Do you view the other nine Commandments the same way?

 

[ricker]

Do you view the other nine Commandments the same way?

Are we getting away from your statement that the origional sabbath command was not legalistic?

No I beleive the sabbath command was given to Israel exclusively as a sign between them and God (Exodus 31). It is included in the ten commandments given to Israel. The Sabbath command is intrisically ceremonial in nature.

 

[k4c]

It's a sad reality a person who is saved will still sin until corruptable puts on incorruption. I really don't thiink we have to "worry" about sin, as Jesus has saved us.

It is not legalistic to exhort Christians to live pure lives. God through Paul does quite a few places. It is legalistic to tell them that keeping or breaking any certain law will cause the grace of God to be of no effect.

What in the world do loaded guns have to do with legalism?

The way that I see it in the new covenant is that God is not so much concerned about sin as much as He is concerned about sin hardening the heart. That's the warning in the new covenant because salvation is based on a relationship and a relationship is based on a soft yielding heart.

Is it love or legalistic to warn someone if you see them doing something that will hurt their relationship with God or man? Is it love or legalistic to warn someone not to play with a loaded gun?

 

[ricker]

Do you view the other nine Commandments the same way?

No. The sabbath command is intristically ceremonial in nature, and Exodus 31 says it was given as a sign between God and the nation of Israel. None of the other ten are ever said to be a similar sign.

 

[k4c]

No. The sabbath command is intristically ceremonial in nature, and Exodus 31 says it was given as a sign between God and the nation of Israel. None of the other ten are ever said to be a similar sign.

Using the Sabbath, as a sign of the covenant, is only one use of the Sabbath. Jesus is lord of the Sabbath. He taught us how to keep the Sabbath in light of relationships. The new covenant church both Jews and Gentiles gathered every sabbath. At one point almost the whole city came out for Sabbath to hear the word of God. This was years after Jesus' is resurrection.

 

[ricker]

The way that I see it in the new covenant is that God is not so much concerned about sin as much as He is concerned about sin hardening the heart. That's the warning in the new covenant because salvation is based on a relationship and a relationship is based on a soft yielding heart.

There is no question in my mind sin can have a detramental effect on a Christian. Hence the call for us to nuture the fruits of the Spirit, and to live pure lives. Sin is not a good thing and with God's help I try to flee from it.

Is it love or legalistic to warn someone if you see them doing something that will hurt their relationship with God or man? Is it love or legalistic to warn someone not to play with a loaded gun?

I'm sorry, but in my mind legalism as we have been discussing it has nothing to do with gun safety.

 

[ricker]

Using the Sabbath, as a sign of the covenant, is only one use of the Sabbath. Jesus is lord of the Sabbath. He taught us how to keep the Sabbath in light of relationships. The new covenant church both Jews and Gentiles gathered every sabbath. At one point almost the whole city came out for Sabbath to hear the word of God. This was years after Jesus' is resurrection.

I have attended church on Saturday to hear (hopefully) God's word. The Bible never says they ever rested or somehow kept the Sabbath. Even if they did, the Bible says not to judge other Christians on what day they keep.

 

[k4c]

I have attended church on Saturday to hear (hopefully) God's word. The Bible never says they ever rested or somehow kept the Sabbath. Even if they did, the Bible says not to judge other Christians on what day they keep.

I don't think the verse your referring to refers to the sabbath. I believe the verse is talking about days such as christms, easter, ash wednesday and so on. I say this because it says days that are esteemed by man and it also talks about eating only vegetables. Both of these things were never commanded by God but the Sabbath was. Also, Jesus brought much condemnation on those who were keeping the Sabbath in a legalistic manner

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

No. The sabbath command is intristically ceremonial in nature, and Exodus 31 says it was given as a sign between God and the nation of Israel. None of the other ten are ever said to be a similar sign.

Was it a mistake that God wrote it on the tables of stone then? Should it have been written in the Mosaic ceremonial laws? Why do you suppose it wasn't?

 

[ricker]

Was it a mistake that God wrote it on the tables of stone then? Should it have been written in the Mosaic ceremonial laws? Why do you suppose it wasn't?

The fact the ten commanments were written on stone apparently means more to you than me. As far as permanence goes, Moses broke the first set written on that stone.

The seventh day sabbath law was indeed written in those ceremonial Mosaic laws.

 

[ricker]

I don't think the verse your referring to refers to the sabbath. I believe the verse is talking about days such as christms, easter, ash wednesday and so on. I say this because it says days that are esteemed by man and it also talks about eating only vegetables. Both of these things were never commanded by God but the Sabbath was. Also, Jesus brought much condemnation on those who were keeping the Sabbath in a legalistic manner

Hey, if beliving this helps you reconcile plain, explicit, verses in the Bible to your church's doctrine, you have that right.

 

[ricker]

I don't think the verse your referring to refers to the sabbath. I believe the verse is talking about days such as christms, easter, ash wednesday and so on. I say this because it says days that are esteemed by man and it also talks about eating only vegetables. Both of these things were never commanded by God but the Sabbath was. Also, Jesus brought much condemnation on those who were keeping the Sabbath in a legalistic manner

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Notice the progression from yearly, to monthly, to weekly observances.

Another:
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord.

These verses, added to the fact that Sabbath observance is never commanded to, or explained to, the Gentile Christian churches, should give you cause for reflection.

 

[k4c]

Hey, if beliving this helps you reconcile plain, explicit, verses in the Bible to your church's doctrine, you have that right.

Easy cowboy, let's not be so quick to draw your gun.

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Notice the progression from yearly, to monthly, to weekly observances.

Another:
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord.

These verses, added to the fact that Sabbath observance is never commanded to, or explained to, the Gentile Christian churches, should give you cause for reflection.

First of all, if Jesus or the disciples ever tried to do away with the seventh day Sabbath you would have heard a huge outcry all throughout the New Testament, but you don't. Even such a small thing a making a change to the circumcision law almost split the church down the middle. There are whole chapters dedicated to it's debate.

We know how the New Covenant is based on the techings of Jesus and not once do you hear Jesus do away with the Sabbath. You do hear Him teach much on how to keep it holy in light of relationships. You even have Him rebuking people for keeping it in a legalistic manner. Even after the death of Jesus His followers still kept the Sabbath, according to the fourth commandment.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

We even have Paul, before his conversion, going from synagogue to synagogue pulling Christians out of church to beat them and imprison them.

Acts 22:19 'Lord,' Paul answered, "they know that I used to go from synagogue to synagogue, imprisoning and flogging those who believed in you;

Long after Jesus' resurrection Paul taught both Jew and Gentile in the synagogue every Sabbath.

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded Jews and Greeks.

How long did this go on before Paul left for his next jeourney?

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded Jews and Greeks.

Paul, taught in the synagogue every Sabbath for a year and a half, that's a lot of Sabbaths.

At one point, many years after Jesus, the Gentiles begged that they could be taught again next Sabbath.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Why not preach the next day, which would have been Sunday? As a matter of fact, almost the whole city came out the next Sabbath to hear the word of God be preached.

Acts 13:44 And the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Many years after Jesus, John was in the spirit on a day He called, the Lord's day. What day is the Lord's day? Well, the Bible says Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath so I would say the Sabbath is the Lord's day.

Now, as far as the chain of cerimonial days, drink, meat offerings and sabbath days, these days where institued as a result of sin to be used as shadows, which Jesus fulfilled so don't judge.

Ezekiel 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

There were many days called sabbaths all throughout the OT that were instituted as a result of sin and were not written in stne with God'sown finger but the holiness of the seventh day came before sin and was not given as a shadow.

You don't hear arguments in the NT regarding which day the Sabbath was because everyone knew which day it was so you wouldn't hear Jesus talk about it that way but you do hear Him teaching many times on how to keep it holy.

 

[ricker]

Easy cowboy, let's not be so quick to draw your gun.



First of all, if Jesus or the disciples ever tried to do away with the seventh day Sabbath you would have heard a huge outcry all throughout the New Testament, but you don't. Even such a small thing a making a change to the circumcision law almost split the church down the middle. There are whole chapters dedicated to it's debate.

We know how the New Covenant is based on the techings of Jesus and not once do you hear Jesus do away with the Sabbath. You do hear Him teach much on how to keep it holy in light of relationships. You even have Him rebuking people for keeping it in a legalistic manner. Even after the death of Jesus His followers still kept the Sabbath, according to the fourth commandment.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

We even have Paul, before his conversion, going from synagogue to synagogue pulling Christians out of church to beat them and imprison them.

Acts 22:19 'Lord,' Paul answered, "they know that I used to go from synagogue to synagogue, imprisoning and flogging those who believed in you;

Long after Jesus' resurrection Paul taught both Jew and Gentile in the synagogue every Sabbath.

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded Jews and Greeks.

How long did this go on before Paul left for his next jeourney?

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded Jews and Greeks.

Paul, taught in the synagogue every Sabbath for a year and a half, that's a lot of Sabbaths.

At one point, many years after Jesus, the Gentiles begged that they could be taught again next Sabbath.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Why not preach the next day, which would have been Sunday? As a matter of fact, almost the whole city came out the next Sabbath to hear the word of God be preached.

Acts 13:44 And the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Many years after Jesus, John was in the spirit on a day He called, the Lord's day. What day is the Lord's day? Well, the Bible says Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath so I would say the Sabbath is the Lord's day.

Now, as far as the chain of cerimonial days, drink, meat offerings and sabbath days, these days where institued as a result of sin to be used as shadows, which Jesus fulfilled so don't judge.

Ezekiel 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

There were many days called sabbaths all throughout the OT that were instituted as a result of sin and were not written in stne with God'sown finger but the holiness of the seventh day came before sin and was not given as a shadow.

You don't hear arguments in the NT regarding which day the Sabbath was because everyone knew which day it was so you wouldn't hear Jesus talk about it that way but you do hear Him teaching many times on how to keep it holy.

Jews who were converted to Christianity were allowed to worship or rest on the sabbath as was their custom, as the verses show.
.
We would have heard a huge controversy if the Jews thought Gentiles were allowed to observe their special day. They were super protective of their Sabbath and would be appalled if Gentiles were to be allowed to participate.

The Sabbath was unarguably given to Israel as a sign per EX. 31. It is ceremonial in nature. Which other of the ten could be a sign? Could the command not to kill be a sign between Israel and God? Could the command to not take the Lord's name in vain be given as a sign? The Sasbbath was a sign between God and the nation of Israel and is never said to be relevant to the Christian movement.

God bless as you start the new week!

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The Sabbath was unarguably given to Israel as a sign per EX. 31. It is ceremonial in nature. Which other of the ten could be a sign? Could the command not to kill be a sign between Israel and God? Could the command to not take the Lord's name in vain be given as a sign? The Sasbbath was a sign between God and the nation of Israel and is never said to be relevant to the Christian movement.

God bless as you start the new week!

So you do not believe that we are also spiritual Israel? That we are Abrahams seed? Why would God have a bias towards one group of people exclusively? Are we not all His creation? How do you view the gentiles in Moses day? Were they not subject to the same Laws as the Israelites? Did they not also receive the Law at Sinai?

Also, why is a sign a ceremonial law? A sign is a covenant and a mark of our allegiance to the creator, is it not?