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motherprayer
Elisha
Hi MP
Thanks for sharing your testimony.
...
So I guess the question is, do you in fact think God was at work in your life and his grace is the ultimate reason you eventually came to Christ?
If yes - then you admit Total Depravity is in fact true (and you're very close to admitting the whole thing...election...irresistible grace...etc)
Thanks for the post crimson, and the input from everyone.
I believe that it was part God, and part me. The Bible says God gives every man a measure of faith. My belief is that in the end, man has to respond to that measure in some way.
(sigh) I'm not a good debatist. That much is clear lol
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C
crimsonleaf
Guest
(Mat 17:20) He said to them, "Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you."
It is all God's work. He gives you all you need.
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Skala
I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him
Where does it say God gives every man a measure of faith? If you're quoting Romans 12:3, do you realize that Paul is talking about the church, not every individual? If you read this passage you will see that it is clear that Paul is talking about each Christian, each person in the church, having different gifts to use for different service, and nobody should think more highly of themselves than another Christian, because God gives us all jobs and tasks based on the "measure of faith that he has assigned to each". Here's the whole passage. Check it out:
Rom 12:1-8
(1) I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
(2) Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
(3) For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
(4) For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
(5) so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
(6) Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;
(7) if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching;
(8) the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
You are probably getting "every man" from the old KJV rendering, but even in context, you can still see that Paul is talking about God giving each Christian a measure of faith and then assigning jobs based on it. So the "every man" in that verse, even in that rendering, is every man in the church. Here's the KJV version:
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
As I said, if you read the whole passage though, it becomes clear that by the phrase "Every man" Paul doesn't mean every individual including those outside of the body of the church. He means "every man" of the group he is talking about.
Anyways, in addition, this verse in context can be used to teach that God gives us faith, faith is a gift from God, etc. That's very Calvinistic
What say you?
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G
guuila
Guest
Sorry but I have to respectfully disagree. Unless you've changed your stance, you believe grace is necessary, but not sufficient. You don't believe grace has the power to do anything unless man gives approval with his free will, right?
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G
guuila
Guest
I don't know yet
Further study is required. "Watson, follow me..."
The Bible teaches that grace is sufficient to save from beginning to end. Faith and repentance are byproducts of grace. Perseverance to the end is all fueled by grace. Grace is the initial cause and sustainer of the Christian's faith.
Synergism teaches that grace merely 'enables' a person to believe. It frees the will, but then it's up to the individual to do the right thing and believe. Grace doesn't cause it. Grace only enables it. Thus in synergism, grace is necessary while not sufficient, and in the Bible, grace is totally sufficient. One leaves room for boasting since the requirement that needs met is a product of the sinner (hint: synergism) and one leaves absolutely no room for boasting since 100% of it is an act of God's grace (hint: Bible). To God alone be the glory.
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motherprayer
Elisha
MP, you're in trouble, and you can't bluff your way out of this one
Any thoughts on #24?
That's hilarious, I literally told crimsonleaf like two seconds ago that I don't have the capability of bluffing haha
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motherprayer
Elisha
I know, I saw that thread. I figured you'd recognize the language
I was halfway joking, halfway being serious
YOU'RE STALKING MEEEEE!!!
Just kidding. I'm sure you're waaay too busy with your many troll followers to follow me around lol
I don't have an answer, to be honest. It's like a niggling at the back of my neck, or a word on the tip of my tongue. It is there, but not. If I figure out how to express it, I promise I will though
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ALoveDivine
Saved By Grace
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Ah, the doctrines of grace; those beautiful doctrines that absolutely destroy every ounce of human pride and self-righteousness. You are saved by the grace of God, your faith is by the grace of God, your perseverance is by the grace of God, your final glorification is by the grace of God, and you were chosen for salvation purely by the grace of God.
This is authentic Christianity; the pure, free, and sovereign grace of God revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ. To think that God saved undeserving wretches like us, for no other reason than the kind and gracious intention of his own sovereign and perfect will, is amazing to me. If my salvation depended on my own performance in any way, I'd be doomed; we would all go to Hell. Praise God that salvation is all of grace, and we are saved by the finished work of Christ alone apart from works.
I myself am an ex-atheist who hated God for the first 19 years of my life. I didn't want God or anything that had to do with the gospel, I just wanted to sell drugs, smoke weed, make money, get women, and live like a thug. I didn't choose God, God came for me and opened my eyes and gave me life, even when I hated him and didn't seek any of it. Praise God! Oh amazing grace, how sweet the sound!
This is authentic Christianity; the pure, free, and sovereign grace of God revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ. To think that God saved undeserving wretches like us, for no other reason than the kind and gracious intention of his own sovereign and perfect will, is amazing to me. If my salvation depended on my own performance in any way, I'd be doomed; we would all go to Hell. Praise God that salvation is all of grace, and we are saved by the finished work of Christ alone apart from works.
I myself am an ex-atheist who hated God for the first 19 years of my life. I didn't want God or anything that had to do with the gospel, I just wanted to sell drugs, smoke weed, make money, get women, and live like a thug. I didn't choose God, God came for me and opened my eyes and gave me life, even when I hated him and didn't seek any of it. Praise God! Oh amazing grace, how sweet the sound!
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G
guuila
Guest
Praise God. So refreshing to see such a God honoring humble attitude. One that doesn't want to take credit for anything. Soli deo Gloria!
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Skala
I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him
YOU'RE STALKING MEEEEE!!!
Just kidding. I'm sure you're waaay too busy with your many troll followers to follow me around lol
I don't have an answer, to be honest. It's like a niggling at the back of my neck, or a word on the tip of my tongue. It is there, but not. If I figure out how to express it, I promise I will though
C'mon..those 8 verses are pretty quick to read, and pretty easy to understand. They aren't confusing or ambiguous in the least. Any honest reader could see what Paul is talking about.
Rom 12:1-8
(1) I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
(2) Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
(3) For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
(4) For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
(5) so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
(6) Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;
(7) if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching;
(8) the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
If something is "holding you back" and keeping you from acknowledging what it seems you deep down know to be true, you should be alarmed.
The truth sets free sister.
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C
crimsonleaf
Guest
The work referred to is prayer and the seeking of eternal life, not the earning of it. Eternal life is a gift from God, not something to be paid for.
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You call prayer a work? Then when you prayed to be saved, you were working to be saved. So, as you say, you were seeking or working for eternal life, or, have you not sought it?
The work Jesus mentioned is believing. Do you not believe Jesus' words in Luke 10:27, 28? To inherit eternal life one must keep His commandments.
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crimsonleaf
Guest
(Luk 10:27) And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbour as yourself."
(Luk 10:28) And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live."
Seems it says that the way to inherit eternal life is to love the Lord your God. Can you imagine loving God with all your heart and all your soul and with all your strength, yet still being able to hate your neighbour? One springs from the other.
And remember, seeking for God is something no one does unless enabled by the Holy Spirit.
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